Project 3.4 Camaro

Purpose of this thread is to hopefully gather together some useful information on the 3.6 LLT engine, as far as available modifications for it, and potential swap complications, after finding out they can be had for as little as $800 for incomplete with some mileage to $4k with relatively low mileage and transmission attached it seems like the v6 guys finally got their ls1 so to speak.
I still haven't decided on it, as I've had many engine plans for my car that I have replaced with others, but the fact is I never really considered it viable for me because I thought it would be cost prohibitive and hard to come by, but after searching ebay out of curiosity it just isn't true. And as much as I would like to think my 3.4 could be built up to that kind of power, I know that mod for mod it wouldn't come close, and even after seeing the full 3500 swapped guys I started contemplating if I really wanted to limit myself by keeping to gen 1 architecture...even with aluminum heads, the lifter valley is a weak point, the rockers non roller, and the block cast iron.
For now, I plan to just get my car running and on the road and sort it all out, but I would like to start compiling useful information for if/when I attempt the swap, or to maybe spark some interest in someone else to do the swap.

Project 3.4 Camaro

First obvious problem would be motor mounts, but seeing as the engine is RWD in some applications, at least the bosses will be there, though it would be helpful to know whether all of them have it or just the RWD applications. The bracket itself should be no more difficult than any other custom motor mount.
Next up would be the transmission, I don't offhand know what transmissions GM is using these days, but it would be nice to know what transmission it has, and what other transmissions will bolt to the block's bellhousing, for example would a 700r4?
The biggest problem from the little bit of research I have done, will be the computers...from what I understand it was a difficult ECU to crack for tuning, but has been done by an Australian company or two as they have had these things to play with a bit longer from what I know. But also, I have heard the BCM and PCM are tied into, or built into the ECU, such that it would be clueless without swapping over every single vehicle(ie. non luxury, such as windows or defogger and such) related electrical component. So does anyone know of a way to separate it or an aftermarket unit that can run the engine in its full capacity?

Lastly from some light searching it appears there is virtually no aftermarket components available for the engine, such as heads, cams,(btw it doesn't use rockers correct, I believe I have read that some OHC engines do actually have rockers..) and such, I am guessing cams is a crapshoot, because no aftermarket company wants to put R&D into something as complex as a VVT cam, esp. if its for a v6?
Next question would be internals, does anybody know whether the rods, crank or pistons are forged stock? If so that would be awesome, but if not, and no aftermarket is there for it, it could be a limiting factor.
Next modifying issue I foresee is the fuel system, I believe DI requires substantially higher pressure to keep up with power increases doesn't it?
And does anyone know whether it has variable intake manifold runners, and does anybody know what weak points the motor might have, that should be focused on improving for more power?
I do plan to tear one of these down in my engine performance class to see what makes it tick, if I have to tear down an engine, its a good opportunity to get familiar with it. And maybe mock up some dimensions and such.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

That torq curve is amazing! Id love to learn about the possibilities of this engine swap.

Check out the graph for 2010 LLT 6

Project 3.4 Camaro

That is a pretty awesomely flat torque curve, over 200 ft lbs just off idle, lol, hopefully someone knows some info on these motors, if not I will do some more in depth research and post it here. But hopefully it will be an open discussion with several people submitting helpful info, which actually the dyno graph is pretty helpful for determining where the engine makes its power in stock form, gives a good baseline, the HP curve seems pretty steep, which is surprising, being a VVT DOHC I would've expected the reciprocal of that graph, relatively flat hp, with steep torque.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u would need a totalled new camaro or donor car to do the swap, at this time that would be really costly

instead i would go for the 3.6 mpfi engine out of the caddy its the same thing as the direct injected 3.6 in the camaro except it is port injected. which would simplify the process and save alot of money.

the main thing with the 3.6 di motor is the fuel injection setup and thats whats going to be the hard part of the entire swap

Project 3.4 Camaro

I don't see why the fuel injection setup would be problematic, I believe there are nylon or braided hoses that can handle that kind of pressure, and the pump could be pulled from a JY car, I mean, beyond the engine, transmission(possibly), ECU and harness, why would you need a donor car? That DI is a fairly substantial increase in power if memory serves. Its like 40 hp difference isn't it? I mean a 260 hp engine is still appealing, but not enough to justify it over a 3500 or maybe a 3900, not to me at least...

project89

iTrader: (1)

put a tune on the 3.6 mpfi engine and it will come very close to the di motor, i belive the mpfi 3.6 has slightly different cams and that woudl explain the power difference as well

u need specific fuel lines for the d.i motor the fuel presures can be as high as a few hundred psi. im not even sure if the fuel pump setup from a 3.6 motor will even fit in a thirdgen tank .

the reason i say get a complete donor car is this way u will have every lil piece needed

90 camaro cj

The DI motor is just like a diesel motor, it is normal pressure up to the motor and on the fuel rail is a booster that raises the pressure up so your stock fuel lines would be fine.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Really? Never heard that before, is it basically an auxiliary fuel pump of sorts?

90 camaro cj

yep i had a diagram of it somewhere if i can find it again ill put it up here.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I was reading that in the LLT you have to transferr every componet in the car including the gauge cluster?? There has to be a way to not use all the electronics in the car.

6-speed Automatic (Hydra-Matic 6L50) w/ TAPshift

6-speed Manual (Aisin Warner AY6)
These are the trannys in the V6 camaro and here are the links to the info on them.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/wiki.p...ns+%28LS/LT%29

Project 3.4 Camaro

I heard the same, and I agree, there has to be another way to do it, it would be really nice if GM would sell those motors as crates, they do it with the LS series...

Project 3.4 Camaro

Are the hydramatics, automated manuals by chance? (I call them manumatics)

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yes I do believe there are manumatics(thats what i know them being called too)... They are in the CTS too.. with the 3.6L

deracer

Subscribed, I have an 89 clean v6 sitting in the driveway that could use a new power plant. I was just saying how cool it would be to use a DI 3.6. It would be a fun project and would like nice next to my 91 LS1 Z28. Hopefully there is a way around the gauge cluster..

Project 3.4 Camaro

Update: I am now working, and currently in my co-op(full time internship for 2nd half of each semester) period, so basically I will have the funds for this swap now.

I also have finally found someone who solved the ECU dilemna, as I wasn't willing to be the guinea pig on that bear of a complication. An aftermarket tuning company (trifecta performance) has come up with an ECU tune that will run the engine just using the engine critical sensors, and the pedal(electronic TB I am assuming), without the need for the BCM and all the other BS we don't care about.
Cost of the tune is $400, I'm hoping to get my car on the road as is, in the near future, fix up the rest of the things it needs to be roadworthy, and hopefully be doing the swap sometime between now and summer, Will provide more updates as I gather more essential information, and or parts. But I have been lusting after that motor the moment I heard about it, and now I have the means to make it happen, as hard as I try to justify building the gen 1 3.4, those 3.6 DIs are just insane...
1.36 hp/cubic inch right off the bat, 370 lbs fully dressed, in a weight reduced car weighing ~3k lbs, you will have a weight to power ratio of 10:1.
The power is on par with an F-body ls1, with 2.1 liters less, that's 1 and 1/3 of a civic engine....In short, awesomeness is impending...

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Sounds exciting. Did you find out about the transmission compatibility?

Project 3.4 Camaro

No I did not, because in all honesty I don't think it would be compatible with any of our stock transmissions, and lets face it, a stock t5 or 700r4 wouldn't rly hold up anyways, I mean the 700r4 might BARELY, but you would have no headroom, and as cheap as the engine and transmissions they use on them can be had for, I'm just going to get one with the trans, really contemplating going to manual in the process as well.

Project 3.4 Camaro

"To overcome the higher pressures inside the combustion chamber, as well as supply the
multiple injection points of the direct injection nozzles, an engine-driven high-pressure
pump supplies fuel to the injectors. This high-pressure pump feeds a high-strength fuel
rail that feeds a continuously variable pressure fuel rail attached to the injectors. The
high-pressure pump is supplied by a conventional fuel pump mounted in the fuel tank.
The high-pressure pump can supply up to 1,740 psi (120 bar) of pressure, although it is
dependent upon fuel demand by the engine. For example, at idle, the fuel system is
regulated to about 508 psi (35 bar) and increases with demand. The high-pressure pump
is mounted on the end of the cylinder head and is driven by the exhaust cam"

Can anyone verify that bit about it simply using a regular old fuel pump out back in the tank, and then boosting the pressure on the engine side of things with an auxiliary pump?

Also, would like to provide some info on the two other variants of this engine, in addition to the 3.6 LLT there is a 3.6 LY7, which is its predacessor, AFAIK, the only differences are that it does not use direct injection, and some of them only have VVT on the intake cam. There is also the new successor version, the the most notable changes are the integration of an exhaust manifold into the head, which personally I don't like, cause looking at it, it really doesn't look to flow any better than a standard old log manifold type, but obviously you can't just throw headers on it. It does however have a composite intake manifold.
Down the road, I may try swapping the intake, and look into the other updates to determine if any of the others would be worth adopting into an llt, I am also trying to look into how much boost the engine llt can handle, since its DI it runs much higher CRs than a standard fuel injected engine, it definitely adds some power though, STS has a system for the 5th gen v6 camaro, and claims gains of 150+ hp on 6 psi they also mention "620hp capable STS Turbocharger", I imagine they are referring to what the turbo can potentially do on that engine, it is however AFAIK unproven whether or not the engine itself can handle that much power, though if it can it won't be long before these things start NOMing down some v8s with only 5 or 6 psi of boost. Also worth noting, the engine has factory sinter forged rods, and a forged crank, so internally, she really only need forged pistons to handle big power, should mention that they are polymer coated and oil cooled though, so idk if that will make it hard for aftermarket companies to reproduce or not.
The following article contains a good bit of the info on the engine:

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, first off, for the anti-heavy car guy, you're better off going with the Aisin 6-speed on the back of the LLT (I'm willing to bet it's much lighter than the auto as most manuals are). You're probably going to have to make a new trans crossmember with torque arm mount.

Second, you do realize it's a royal pain trying to fit even a 3.4 DOHC into our cars, right? Measure well before you make up your mind (especially with the booster pump on the back of the cylinder head).

Not to mention the rewiring and installation of the electronic throttle controls you so badly hate...

Project 3.4 Camaro

I've never dealt with an electronic TB, and I won't really have to do much if any wiring, I'll be getting a donor harness off of whatever I get the engine from. Didn't know the 3.4 dohc was hard to make fit, that seems surprising, I figured if a v8 fit any v6 would be fair game. I have seen an llt up close and outside of a car, but yes, I will be taking measurements before I pull the trigger most likely.
As for the trans, I haven't decided, I plan to autox the car in scca in 2 or 3 years from now, a manual can't match an auto for speed and precision, honestly, I want a friggin manumatic, but GM doesn't make one, and I have no idea if there is one out there that would just happen to have the right bellhousing, but even if there were it would be a difficult swap no doubt.
I don't suppose you know which directions the 3.4 dohc was troublesome? I'm assuming width?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Either the DI version or the SFI version should be equally difficult to install. As you noted the DI version uses a separate pump from tank to mechanical pump. The DI motor will go in as an assembly like the other version would. Grabbing the wiring and reorganizing to fit the camaro won't be any worse than any other donor project. Mounting the thing and finding a trans will be your problem. You seem to have the ecm tackled, all that's needed is to disable communication and some datalink error stuff the PCM will look for. A manual would be the best bet because reprogramming the PCM for another auto trans will be difficult and you need to tackle speed input and some other stuff... disable the trans and you're good to go. Either that or an older non-electric auto.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I need to find out about bellhousing bolt pattern, but chances are I will just get the trans from a donor car with the engine. The harness, I might just get direct from work, if its cheap enough I most likely will cause then I wouldn't have to pull one, and would know everything was there. Plus you don't really see the harnesses for sale on ebay, but its possible the seller might pull it if they have the whole car, and the engine is already out anyway. I did talk to a guy that said hes done motor swaps before and done his own mounts, so if/when I move forward I have that sorted out, which is gonna leave wiring things up, pedal assembly, and gauges probably, also suspecting a custom length DS may be in order.
If I do manage to pull it off I will certainly have a badass unique car, and most likely it would be the first 3rd gen with that swap, I plan to do a swap thread for it, if/when I attempt it, I haven't pulled the trigger till I start buying the components, but my finger is on it, I am trying to get it running as is though, so I can have a new floorpan dropped in and get the firewall corners patched, I want the body 100% before I drop a new engine in.

Oh, also my instructor measured up the 3.6 for me(school is 30m away, and I'm in co-op atm):
L:34"
W:27"
H:28"
34.”Lx27wx28H
Tomorrow I am going over to my mothers(car is there atm) to try to get it running, and take the measurements. Hopefully its just my injector wires out of place(finally have a wiring schematic that cleared things up, ty alldata)

BowtieMuscle

I'm bumping this because I've been looking all over the internet to find a 3rd gen LLT swap, and found basically NOTHING! I think this swap is a great idea, 300 hp and 30+ MPG easily. This would make a great, reliable DD swap. If you're going to do this swap though, why not go with the Aysin-Warner AY6 six-speed manual? Despite how far autos have come, I can still pull more MPGs out of a manual than I can modern autos. Just get a complete 3.6 engine and trans together. Plus the manual has a bit more aggressive gear ratios. Also, wouldn't getting the car running be as easy as just transferring the ECM, PCM and BCM with the engine? Some thoughts on this swap would be ignition and instrument cluster. Would you have to swap over the lock cylinder/key from the donor car to get the car to start? What about the speedo/tach/auxillary guages? They probably won't be compatible with the current cluster.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Not sure on the little details, probably do have to swap cluster and such though.
And I hate to disappoint, but I may actually go for an ls v8 instead, would be a far easier, not to mention proven swap, with swap components readily available to make it plug and play, not to mention more power, and a proven platform.
I've recently gotten to drive a 3.6 llt impala, it wasn't slow by any means, but it wasn't nearly enough power for my goal, the gap is too large to easily get to with a v6 that has no aftermarket support. Plus I've heard some bad things about them, not to mention seen one that was completely locked up, spun the mains something fierce...

But nothing is set in stone till I have some money together and start acquiring parts. And even that is a ways off atm, still have to finish reviving the car, which I can't do till spring-not even going to try driving it in the snow, and don't really feel like fixing it in winter either, winter makes me not feel like doing anything, lol.

BowtieMuscle

Yeah I agree the LS V8 swap is a lot easier and definately proven. Plus swap parts are readily available. But look at it this way, before the LS1/LT1 swaps were common, someone had to do it first. We're right at the point where the first LS1 swaps into these cars were way back when. It takes someone to run though everything and figure out what works and what won't. I think the information compiled here so far is a good start for anyone looking to make that first step into swapping an LLT into a 3rd gen. Personally, I think the 3rd gens are the best option for the LLT, the 2nd gens are too heavy, and the 4th gens are too new to really benefit. Its just surprising that no one has done such a swap yet.

Project 3.4 Camaro

No one has done it due to complexity of swap, lack of aftermarket, and people think the engines cost more than they do...but you can find them as cheap as ls1s if not cheaper in truth, the 3.6 LLT is today, what our 2.8s and 3.1s were back in the day, meaning, GM is putting them in EVERYTHING that gets a v6. Camaros, impalas, buick lacrosses, even the SUVs, if its a new vehicle from GM and has a v6, you can bet its the 3.6llt, except on the trucks maybe, I think they are still using 4.3s, but most of them are 5.3s. I think eventually there may be an aftermarket, though it is hard to say, especially considering the engine is stock at its coping limit in a fwd vehicle(torque steer), and the reliability is as of yet unproven. But I'm also shooting for 500-700hp, which could certainly be done on the llt with boost, problem is lack of supporting mods.

Oh and a few tidbits about the LLT, its not true direct injection, it injects right above the valve, its kind of in between DI and MPFI, did not know this till someone told me the other day, it also wasn't designed by GM, they bought it, and that's kind of what scares me about the reliability when coupled with what i've heard about them, its a likely assumption that gm cut corners to cut cost and possibly ****ed it up as a result. Also they switched to exhaust manifold+cylinder head in one on the newer version(lfx I think), a setup prone to cracking from what I hear.

BowtieMuscle

What kind of problems have come up with the LLT? Got any links? I haven't heard much bad about them. I think with GM putting them in everything, GM must feel they are pretty durable motors. On paper they seem to be, with a lot of forged internals. Yeah 500-700 hp might be asking a little much of it, I was shooting for keeping it stock as a DD car, maybe slight mods down the line. I agree, I don't like the new LFX exhaust manifold setup like that, its just asking for trouble. I think the LLT is best suited to RWD applications because of the higher hp/torque. I just wish they had thought of aftermarket support for the LLT down the line, when they made the ECM/PCM/BCM so hard to tune. If it wasn't for that detail alone I think we would be seeing the LLT as a popular swap.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I don't have any links to problems, but from what I have heard at work, timing chains are a common issue, the DI ecotecs definitely have some issues, seen a good many apart in the shop. If I had to speculate(I didn't really ask what they were in for) its the DI, VVT, or DOHC tech causing the problems since that's the new unproven tech. Also, a 3.6 came in completely locked up...main bearings were fubar, but that could have been an isolated incident, I don't really know.
And the ECU has been cracked, but it seems to not be common knowledge.

BowtieMuscle

Yeah its going to be awhile before I'm in a position for such a project, but I really think this would be on the top of my list. Just doing some preliminary research now. Hopefully by the time I'm more in a position to do such a swap the aftermarket gets a little more support for these motors.

BowtieMuscle

What kind of timing chain issues? Any idea how many miles they typically have before the timing chain issue comes up? Is this an issue for both the FWD and RWD LLTs?

Project 3.4 Camaro

An LLT is an LLT, I believe the chains have a tendency to stretch, I have no idea what mileage, I haven't seen any of the 3.6s come in for any work other than the one that's locked up tbh, lots of the ecotecs though. But the fact is I haven't been in the field long enough to do more than speculate on the reliability of them, I only just started like a month ago.

BowtieMuscle

Just posting a link to another thread (on different forum though...) to bring all of the info in one place for anyone who finds this down the line. Has around 10 pages.

http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums...4th-gen-f-body

BowtieMuscle

Some extensive research has found a facebook page of a small company doing an LLT swap into (I think) a '69 Chevelle. They seem to be close to getting the engine running on a stand.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/One-Of...019878?sk=wall

cIaRmOaCrZo

today at work, just finished maintenace on an 08 saturn VUE with the 3.6 but it was only the LY7 not the LLT. and i mashed it for a second, not gonna lie, it some *****. it would absolutely demolish my wimpy 3.1 in my daily beater rs. it even felt nastier than the lb9 with bolts on's i use to have in my iroc. and the saturn VUE is an SUV!! HEAVY. i think the LLT in a 3rdgen is a brilliant idea. so hopefully someone does it. DD status or more

Project 3.4 Camaro

I may yet attempt it, been through some rough times lately though, I started school in fall of 11, and am on my 4th car since then....my corsica seized because the PO(S) never changed the oil, then my mother got a new car to lend me her then current car which was a 98 GA which blew its HG after a couple weeks, then I bought a 96 5 spd camaro that snapped a conrod like a week after I bought it... I'm driving a hyundai now...anyway, I don't even have a tentative plan atm other than get my camaro on the road again in its current configuration, sick of it just sitting. Post revival if I keep it, it will either get an ls1 or llt.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Just wondering...
Is it possible to just use the 3.6 short block under say, a 3500 top end? It would be cheaper, and wouldn't need all the dfi craziness.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Talking about two VERY different engines, they have absolutely nothing in common.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Ah. I thought since they were both 60*, they would have some stuff bolt together....
Never mind then.

Project 3.4 Camaro

It's actually not quite a 60*, and its not a GM engine either. It's 58 and some odd degrees, and actually a suby design.

pault850

I'm very interested to see how this one turns out. this is my dream set up at the moment, just wish the computer wasn't complicating everything.

Jeff Mayo

I'm new to the camaro world but I am also interested in these engines. I have read a couple threads on it and there is a company called v8 roadsters that makes kits to put an lfx into a mazda. Plus I've seen videos of them running on stands and stuck in old trucks. I'll post anything else I find.