ATI's Twin Hi-Flow Intercooler System on a Third Gen? Stay Tuned...
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ATI's Twin Hi-Flow Intercooler System on a Third Gen? Stay Tuned...
Although ATI has attempted to convince me that their three-core intercooler (IC) does not impede airflow to the radiator, I know from practical experience that it does. Even in the winters here in Arizona (about 60*F), my car runs about 20 degrees warmer than before the IC install. In the summers, my car runs ridiculously hot, even without the A/C. I can only imagine it's worse on a Firebird with no "grill". For guys in milder climates, this is not an issue, but for us in hotter regions, it is a major concern.
I approached ATI with the idea of fabricating their twin high-flow intercooler design for third gens and they are willing to work with me on developing a "kit". The twins mount horizontally to the ground and are positioned near the front corners. This design will not hinder airflow to the radiator as does the single IC design, which mounts just below the radiator and almost completely blocks airflow to the radiator. The only air the radiator gets is what flows through the IC (which in itself is hotter than ambient) and for us Camaro owners, the grill openings (almost insignificant).
Preliminary fitting points to using the fourth gen LS1 IC's, but they will not be positioned in the same location as fourth gens. Once I receive the twin IC's (without mounting tabs), I will determine the best locations for them, then have the mounting tabs welded. I have a preliminary routing of the 2-1/2 inch tubing completed. All that needs to be done is to trial fit all the tubing, once the IC's are in place.
Although this "kit" will not be an official offering, I will be developing a parts list and instructions. Once it is completed, ATI will tell anyone who's interested in this design that it can be an option to the two or three IC setup.
I can't wait to get this project going.... Stay tuned.
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__________________ Willie
1987 "20th Anniversary Commemorative Edition" Z28 Convertible
305 TPI / 5-speed
Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 1998
2008 Shelby GT500
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I live in Louisiana and am concerned about the heating/cooling issue with the use of an intercooler for the SC. This has kept me from purchasing one to date. But as you know intercooled SC systems are the only way to go.
Please keep us informed of your work on this project. I for one am very interested in a SC, especially once the cooling issue is resolved.
As of today, 06-22-02, I've received both intercoolers and a slew of piping and hoses from ATI. Unfortunately, I won't have time to tinker with any of this until next weekend at the earliest. I have, however, already laid out the plans for intercooler positioning and pipe routing.
Once I start getting physically involved, the first step will be to fabricate mounts for the intercoolers, making sure I have sufficient room for the piping. It's gonna be tight, but it should work!!!
The pricing won't be determined until I have completed the project and itemized all the pieces I will eventually use. Once this has been done, I will be making a parts list for ATI and a set of instructions.
Stay tuned.... same bat time, same bat channel....
I have determined the final layout. Two weeks ago, I shipped back all piping I didn't use, both intercoolers with mounting flanges JB Welded, the two supplied "Y"s I had to modify and a parts list for piping I still needed (four more pieces). ATI has since permanently welded the mounting flanges onto the IC's and taken dimensions for the modified "Y"s. I'm waiting on a shipment which should include the "Y"s, and the additional piping I'll need. I expect to get these pieces back this coming week. Then all that remains is to install and test it.
I'm having additional flanges welded to the bottom side of the IC's to be used for custom fabricated air scoops. The IC's are mounted horizontally to the ground and include a flange that is used to bolt 1/4" thick rubber air deflectors. The deflectors are supposed to help direct air into the IC's. But from examing the rubber deflectors, I can tell they will bend backwards with vehicle speed, hence defeating their intended purpose. Therefore, I plan on building air scoops for each IC and examining the air temps, before and after the IC's with my already installed air temperatures gauges.
Keep in mind that my car is a Camaro and I do not know if this installation will be identical on a Firebird. If Dirk will allow me to crawl under his '92 GTA to experiment with fit, I will do so. (He lives 10 minutes from my house.)
I will post updates here as they become available, along with pricing when it becomes final.
Update -- 07/07/02.
I'll be receiving all the additional piping/tubing this week. I hope to complete the installation this weekend -- stay tuned for pics.
This is a great project and I'd like to thank you for your initiative and hard work to move this thing forward. Of course, as I thank you, my wallet curses you. Paired with ATI's D1SC this is a very formidable system. Thanks again and I look forward to the pictures.
Sweeeeeet. This should make adapting an intercooler to a Vortech fairly easy. In case nobody knows ... I bought a bracket from BlownBird to eventually mount a Vortech YS-Trim. Here's my most recent progress. Pics are huge ...
I received all the tubing yesterday and trial fitted the whole enchilada. It's going to work beautifully with minimal mods. The vacuum cannister will be relocated slightly. The passenger side fender brace will need to be modified. That's about it.
Here's one pic taken a couple of weeks ago with the IC's in place. I was working on tube routing at the time, so it is not complete. Nor are the IC air deflectors in place either. In any case, you can see where the IC's will go. The two coolers in the pic above the stock radiator air dam are for my transmission and engine oil cooler -- not part of the blower setup.
That looks SWEET! Is that how ATI will be selling the kits from now on, or is this intercooler idea offered at an additional cost? Is it gonna fit in a Trans-Am? Excellent job Willie. I had a 300ZX on the lift at work the other day and I was wondering why nobody had an intercooler for our cars like this style.
Hank O.
I couldn't agree more. Now, if it performs as well as it's gonna look.....>>>>
Is that how ATI will be selling the kits from now on, or is this intercooler idea offered at an additional cost?
No, BUT it will be an "unofficial" option. In other words, if you mention this when ordering, they will assemble the pieces, based on my design and sell it that way. That means that not many of us third genners will have this awesome looking setup.
Is it gonna fit in a Trans-Am?
I did have a chance to go to Dirk's house (our illustrious founder of this site and current administrator) and inspect his '92 GTA. I can see how different it is from a Camaro, so I'm not sure how many changes will be necessary to make my design work on a Trans-Am.
If I have time, I'll go back to Dirk's with the pieces and see how it works.
Finished it yesterday and took her for a spin today. It's only 104 today, so it's not as hot as it's been lately. But I can conclusively say that my original goal of being able to run the AC without overheating has been achieved. My engine temps were no hotter than I've been the last five weeks without my blower or 3-core IC.
I also reinstalled my air temperature gauge sensors. Same as before -- before and after the intercooler(s). I saw IC inlet temps as high as 169 and the hottest outlet temp I saw was 110. This was under normal driving conditions -- no boost. Well, I did jump on it a "little" and saw 5 psig.... These figures are similar, if not identical, to what I recall with the three-core setup.
And one more from behind. I added "deflectors" just in front of and horizontal to the IC, effectively hiding the piping/tubing. I was not planning on doing this, but you could barely see about the bottom 1/4" of piping/tubing from in front of the car, so....
Also, the rubber air deflectors that are supplied are supposed to angle vertically. Even though they are 1/4" thick, they are rather flexible. I can imagine at 40 mph or over, these things are going to be flapping in the wind, defeating their purpose. So I used sheet metal, formed it with an angle and inserted them behind the deflectors. They "support" only the top half, which should be sufficient. You should be able to see it in the pic.
In the very near future, I will be fabricating air scoops, similar to the one found on the three-core, for each IC. Depending on which is more efficient (or cooler looking), I'll go with that one.
I should have displayed this image sooner. It's the entire setup laid out on my study's floor before it was installed. Notice the two pipes that cross from side to side must be twisted, similar to a pretzel but only once. Otherwise, one branch would use both IC's and the other none... Can't have that!
Wow that looks great I saw the pic and all I could say is "I want one" I installed my three core last night and PIA, because my trans cooler and fan. If you dont mind me asking how much did it cost you to put together. My motor and everything is going in after my roll cage is done. I wonder how long will it take ATI to put a kit together or is it possible to get your parts list to reproduce it or something to that affect.
I will be contacting ATI sometime this week to make sure both our parts lists match. They will be keeping a copy of this list. Although this "kit" will not be official; i.e. not shown on their webpage, retail parts list, etc., it will be available as a option to the two or three core IC in their kits. It will also be available separately.
Cost is something ATI will have to determine. My side of the agreement was to do the research and development and come up with a parts list. Their side was that I got the IC's at cost and no charge for any of the tubing/piping. I will also be writing an instruction manual (with pics) but not forwarding this to ATI. So in the future when someone opts to do this, I will supply them with instructions.
Is there a benefit to splitting the output between the two intercoolers and then recombining it as opposed to running the full charge sequentially through both intercoolers? Do you see a greater drop in before IC boost to after IC boost?
Optimally, you don't want to recombine into one 3-inch pipe. I would like to keep them as separate 2-1/2" pipes, then combining them into a 4-inch rubber hose that attaches to the throttle body. This is what the fourth gen kits do. The circumference around our throttle body is equivalent to the circumference of a 4-inch pipe, so there would be no restriction doing so. But space (and a 3-inch diameter MAF) limits this possibility (another reason to go to speed density?). Even so, there is less restriction with dual 2-1/2" pipes vs. a single 3-incher. ATI believes I will see slightly more boost with no other changes. Time will tell if this is true.
My goal in making this system work did not have to go with blower performance. It was to eliminate the three-core IC which severely restricted airflow to the radiator, causing my engine to ALWAYS run hotter. In the summer heat, I could not use my AC without overheating. I do live in the desert where this is a common occurrence.
Willie,
What about the boost lost across the twin hiflo, compared to the single 3 core? Is the pressure loss less than the 3 core loss? Sounds like the temperature drop is about the same as the 3 core.
Did you ever find out how the kit fits on Firebirds and T/As. What do you think about it fitting a 91 Formula?
__________________ 1991 Formula
Bright Red (Original Owner) T-Tops, all power - Currently under construction and a car cover. Engine: 383CI, World Products Sportman II's (unported) Vortech V1 S-Trim Intercooler: ATI 3 core (under construction) Cam: SLP rollor 51006, Duration@0.050: 214/224, Lift:.501/.523 SLP Headers: 1.75", Random Technology dual cats, Borla cat back ECU: stock ECM with DIY Flashed EEprom Transmission: T-56, Pro 5.0 shifter, Hayes billit flywheel, Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, custom 3" aluminum driveshaft, Metco driveshaft loop and Spohn Crossmember and torque arm Rear suspension: 3.42 stock 10 bolt, Bilstein shocks, 4th Gen. 1LE control arms and 1LE springs (NNU) stock 11.7" disc brakes Front suspension: Koni adjustable shocks, WS6 springs (BZW), SSBC 1LE Brakes Wheels:17x9.5 Firehawk silver, Nitto F:555 275's, R:555R 315's. Chassis: Alston subframe connectors, Wonder Bar 2005 GTO
Phantom Black Metallic, Black Interior, LS2, A4, 1 of 553.-Volant CAI, 06 Tails.
Thank you. If you could take a close look at the entire setup, it REALLY looks like it belongs. It really did come out looking very nice....
How much cooler is the air with the intercoolers? Is it a big temperature difference?
As far as the air temps inside this setup, the difference between it and the three-core is negligible. My objective was not to reduce this air temp, but to allow much more air to my radiator. With the three-core, my engine coolant temps were always 190 or higher, regardless of t-stat setting. With A/C on, it was always 220 on cooler days with both fans running. I was hesitant to use it on hotter days. Now, my engine coolant temps are back to "normal", compared to my stock convertible.
Originally posted by Willie Awesome looking setup. Great job Willie.
Thank you. If you could take a close look at the entire setup, it REALLY looks like it belongs. It really did come out looking very nice....
How much cooler is the air with the intercoolers? Is it a big temperature difference?
As far as the air temps inside this setup, the difference between it and the three-core is negligible. My objective was not to reduce this air temp, but to allow much more air to my radiator. With the three-core, my engine coolant temps were always 190 or higher, regardless of t-stat setting. With A/C on, it was always 220 on cooler days with both fans running. I was hesitant to use it on hotter days. Now, my engine coolant temps are back to "normal", compared to my stock convertible.
Willie
Willie,
Have you ever tested the boost loss through the three core intercooler? If so, what is the drop and how does it compare to the twin high flow boost loss.
My guess is it would be less due to the greater volume of twin pipes and two short intercoolers. Kind of like the dual converter exhaust.
Just want to know how much boost I will be losing when I add the intercooler to my Vortech S-trim.
__________________ 1991 Formula
Bright Red (Original Owner) T-Tops, all power - Currently under construction and a car cover. Engine: 383CI, World Products Sportman II's (unported) Vortech V1 S-Trim Intercooler: ATI 3 core (under construction) Cam: SLP rollor 51006, Duration@0.050: 214/224, Lift:.501/.523 SLP Headers: 1.75", Random Technology dual cats, Borla cat back ECU: stock ECM with DIY Flashed EEprom Transmission: T-56, Pro 5.0 shifter, Hayes billit flywheel, Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, custom 3" aluminum driveshaft, Metco driveshaft loop and Spohn Crossmember and torque arm Rear suspension: 3.42 stock 10 bolt, Bilstein shocks, 4th Gen. 1LE control arms and 1LE springs (NNU) stock 11.7" disc brakes Front suspension: Koni adjustable shocks, WS6 springs (BZW), SSBC 1LE Brakes Wheels:17x9.5 Firehawk silver, Nitto F:555 275's, R:555R 315's. Chassis: Alston subframe connectors, Wonder Bar 2005 GTO
Phantom Black Metallic, Black Interior, LS2, A4, 1 of 553.-Volant CAI, 06 Tails.
Have you ever tested the boost loss through the three core intercooler?
I've performed quite the number of tests over the years with air temperature gauges, water/alcohol injection, etc. but I have never run my D1SC without an intercooler. So I cannot answer your question.
If so, what is the drop and how does it compare to the twin high flow boost loss.
I will tell you what Dorian at ATI told me. He said I should see slightly more boost with the twin setup. I have yet to go to WOT with the twins. I will be racing on August 2nd though.
My guess is it would be less due to the greater volume of twin pipes and two short intercoolers. Kind of like the dual converter exhaust.
If this is true, which I believe it will be, then I should see more boost. Time will tell.
Just want to know how much boost I will be losing when I add the intercooler to my Vortech S-trim.
I wish I could tell you. But I believe just the delta in inlet air temps with and without an IC should cover any "lost boost". In fact, you should be able to run more timing, so.....
We are in the process of determining if the same IC placement on my Camaro will be valid on a Firebird. IF it works, the next step will be to determine if the pipe routing will work. Still have plenty to do, considering we're doing this long distance so please understand and be patient. We will be posting updates as they become available.
I got the intercooler dimensions from Willie and am going to fabricate the Driver's side from cardboard. This will allow me to determine if it can be placed in approximately the same position as Willie's set up.
If it can be placed similarly, then the pipe routing he determined will be close or the same.
Should have the intercooler model placed this weekend.
Looks like the main bracket on the model will fit, but the others may be different from Willie's.
I did not fit the model in place, but eye balled it. To fit the model will require removal of the Trans Am's ground effects. I will need some free time to do this. Also, to perfectly fit the model, the power steering lines will need to be pushed out of the way and eventually rerouted.
But it looks like it will fit in the corners as Willie's does. Just need to figure out the bracket locations.
This is good news. I'm interested in this as well, since I'm putting a Vortech S-trim on my too-high-compression GTA and will definitely want intercooling.
Removed the ground effects and got the model placed best that I could. Looks like the brackets will work, but might be slightly different than on the Camaro.
The power steering cooling lines need to be adjusted out of the way, but they don't appear to have to be removed and relocated so far as I see now.
Sent some photos to Willie and he gave me directions on how to fine tune the location. I will do this on the weekend.
I have got the preliminary order set up with Dave at www.Tenaciousperformance.com He spoke with the ATI rep that has been working with Willie. Once I am confident that the intercooler will fit properly I will place the order.
The piping should fit in the TA similar to Willie's Camaro, but I will soon find this out for myself.
