Power AdderGetting a Supercharger or Turbocharger? Thinking about using Nitrous? All forced induction and N2O topics discussed here.
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Thanks for the compliment. Yeah, it has the 2 core intercooler. It runs extremely strong under boost. I had heard of people having fuel atomization problems running similar setups, but I have yet to see it. I am currently only running about 6 pounds of boost, I don't trust my bottom end with any more than that (it has about 165,000 miles on it)
FLYNLOW92rs: Any more info on that procharger....what it cost...where you got it.....times......etc....
It is a P600B supercharger with a 2-core intercooler. The pulley and tubing are for the 88-92 camaros, but the TBI bonnet and all the fuel stuff (pump, regulator, etc...) are for the 88-? chevy pickups with the tbi. There was a slight amound of fabrication needed as would be the case with any project of this size, but the only thing out of the ordinary that I needed was the aluminum piece that goes to the tbi bonnet. For that I just used a 4" piece of aluminum tubing.
I ordered the unit from Lonnie Pavtis lpavtis@westol.com , who was extremely helpful. He has a small buisness based out of pennsylvania. For everything, including the fan mentioned below, I spent about $3300
I won't have any times until I get back from my trip in a couple weeks, but the car was clocking a high thirteen before the supercharger. I am hoping for a high 12 with it.
Matt
EDIT: The crank pulley will not clear the factory single fan setup, I had to order a low profile Flexalite dual fan setup for about $200
Here is the best picture I could find of the hood. As far as the size goes, I thought that there was only one. If you look in the truck section in summit you should be able to find them, as well as pricing.
Yeah, it's the stock injectors, but the throttle body is ported and polished to increase the flow. We have had it hooked up to a scan tool, and it claims that I am running a tiny bit lean, but I also think my o2 sensor is bad. I also installed the FMU that came with the kit.
It is running very strong even with just the 6#'s of boost. I let my dad take it to work one day and he said that I may be able to beat his modified 98 trans am. Oh well, hopefully july 16th I'll find out for sure
Yeah, it is the standard ATI intercooler setup. I did make it out to the track, but it wasn't anything worth posting (My fault, not the car's). The first time down the track, keep in mind that this was my first time ever at the track, I launched at to low of an rpm because I was expecting really bad tire spin like on the street. All that did was bog the motor really bad. That run was like a 15.6 at 102. To compinsate for that, on my next run, I launched at about 3500 rpm and eased into the clutch (a friends suggestion). This run I was up againsed a TT supra, one of the newer ones. I slaughtered him off the line, had a two second 60 foot, but I overheated my clutch. So, when I went for second gear and laid into the throttle, none of the power went to the wheels. My finishing mph on this run was 60 mph, at something like 19.2. Due to the fact that I was almost seeing red at this point, I decided to throw in the towel and just watch the rest of the night.
Anyways, I don't own the car anymore. I sold it to my brother and bought a 2001 sunset orange TA with a 6 speed. By the time the warranty is up in a couple of years, I should have enough saved up for cam, heads, and the whole shebang.
Any more questions on the 92 though, feel free to ask. I still know it like the back of my hand
Looking back on it, in my situation, I would have gone all motor. I'm not saying anything bad about power adders, because they are excellent setups, but the TBI didn't respond to boost like a TPI or similar port injection design would have. same thing with a carb, due to the fact that the fuel can't atomize as well, its just not as efficient.
As far as SC'd carb vs TBI, the TBI is easier. To do a blow thru carb setup, you have to either modify the carb so it will operate under boost, or purchase a pre made one from vortech or ATI.
If you are stuck on the SC though, I would go to the boneyard and grab a TPI or LT1 intake and do a swap.
Ive tried explaining that tbi boost thing but then the TBI guys try to bite my head off. I hear TBI's on roots work real nice too. holly (B&M) makes a nice roots package for TBI trucks I would like to see it on an F-body if some body. I dont think it will ever be a offered kit but I'm retty sure they are similar enough to work. another option for some guys might be to use the edelbrock TBI to MPI conversion (pretty slick) made for trucks and put it on a car.
It still worked well on the TBI, but the gains that a port injection system would give would definately be worth the investment
I can understand where the TBI guys are coming from though, It seems like everyone (even the ones that can't tell an air filter from a transmission) puts down the TBI setup. It isn't a bad setup, it's just very restrictive from the factory.
Sooo... with those messed up times, do you think you'd run a 15 second TBI with no problems like on your previous runs? I;d say so - 15 seconds with a turbo'd 5.0 TBI... not to knock the setup (awesome by the way) but it seems lacking.
No TBI is not a bad setup... but it doesn't offer close power to a port system. 5.0 TBI - 170HO/250'sTQ vs 5.0 TPI 200HP/300TQ
approximate, but I mlike the fact that the tbi is super easy to troubleshoot. Depends on your personality huh.
Last edited by D Stroy H8; 10-07-2002 at 11:07 PM.
I feel bad this is off topic, but the I own both TBI and TPI 305 5 speeds. The TPI came with 20 degrees more duration on the stock cam!!! The TPI ran ~15.3 @90 basically stock and the TBI ran 15.7 @87 basically stock with slightly better gears.
Did your brother run the car at a track yet? I have a D1sc w/ 3 core sitting in my room(NY) meant for my 305 TPI that spun a bearing and I'm currently driving my TBI car(FL), doing some mods to make it at least respectable (mid 14s).
You said you're running stock size injectors...I'm assuming stock eprom, stock fuel pressure, stock everything? Yes/no? You also said the setup was good for high 13's before the blower. I find that hard if not impossible to believe considering it's using stock injectors. Do you have the 2 bar MAP sensor, custom eprom or what? If not I can tell you that you are definatly going to break something from running so lean. I'm not talking a little lean....I'm talking 6# burn a piston and break the motor lean.
There is a lot more than just bolting on the supercharger. I really REALLY hope you can help me understand what is going on with this setup. There aren't too many S/C TBI vehicles out there let alone an f-body so please work with me on this one.
I would love to help you but you don't provide enough information. I'm going to e-mail you, please reply.
I installed about TBI procharger truck kits at our shop without problem. 5.0, 5.7, and 454, as a matter of fact, even with the stock injectors these motors run FAT unless you lower the FMU ratio on the dyno's W/B O2. This is not hard to belive when the consideration of the monster inline pump added is for MPI and the FMU jack the pressure from the 20-30 # to the 60-80# seen on MPI blown cars. I feel this gives the advantage to the TBI car because the pressure on an MPI car is so high already that the 60-80 # rise doesnt add as much more fuel/power capacity on them as it does the TBI. Strangely enough the TBI injectors wont pressure lock like the MPI cars, this is probably a testament to the monsterous windings on the coils and monsterous mechanicals internal to a TBI injector. Take that you chip burners. the boost levels in these kits varies from 6-9 PSI depending on engine size and pulley/head unit configuration optioned. Considering the trucks use the same hardware and computer, whats hard to believe? that it ever went near 13's is impossible to believe without the blower. Tell us what kind of previous mods you had to get it into the 13's. It is more likely that it runs in the low 13's now. which would be a two second improvement over even the modified TBI cars I've seen and a 3 second (or better) improvement over a stock TBI.
"1992 Chevy Camaro RS with 305 TBI and WC T-5 tranny
ATI Procharger, ported and polished factory castings, comp cams 206/210 duration, ported and polished TBI with 2" TBI spacer, MSD coil, 8.5 MM wires, 6AL box, Dynomax headers, 3" single pipe to flowmaster 80 series muffler, Home-made SFC's and Boxed control arms, and an aluminum driveshaft"
Without the supercharger you would be a high 14 car, MAYBE mid if you could hook. That cam is smaller than an Lt1 cam and we have yet to see any 305 TBI with an Lt1 cam get into the high 13's on stock and/or ported polished stock heads. BTW, polishing the factory swirl port heads is a PITA because they'll still flow less than stock LB9 heads found on 305 TPIs. Maybe 5-10 hp if you're lucky. Anyways, that's not my point. My point is that you never took the car to the track and for you to say it would run high 13's is in my experience. I also don't understand why your running a fuel pressure boost that's for a MPFI system! The fuel pump has jack squat to do with the fuel pressure unless you've got a super small return line and/or crappy stock pump like mine.
There is a lot of potential in your car and I'd like to see it done with good results.
Originally posted by JPrevost I also don't understand why your running a fuel pressure boost that's for a MPFI system! The fuel pump has jack squat to do with the fuel pressure unless you've got a super small return line and/or crappy stock pump like mine.
An FMU is not for MPFI it is for EFI with a return syle supply PERIOD. It also happens to be the supplied system for the TBI trucks in procharger and vortech kits, I believe so for paxton as well. you should read what I wrote above about how this is probably a superior setup to TPI in this department. The inline "auxiliary" pump supplied with the kit works well with either TBI or TPI, AND HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH PRESSURE (unless you dont understand how an FMU works)
I'm not really sure what this discussion has degenerated into, but to get some correct info out there, the GM TBI setups run at 9-12psi. I haven't tried over 20psi in them myself, but the accepted limit for them is in the mid 20's, not because the injectors go static but because of the way that fuel is fed to them (the body of the injector seals the fuel passages through the TB and uses some large diameter but small thickness O-rings which are prone to blowing out). I've also heard of them not opening at over 25psi, but I suspect that that was a not related problem. They are a large, peak and hold (low Z) design that should be reliable and accurate for much over what they are used for in stock applications.
WRT to an FMU or rising rate regulator, it is a valid way of adding fuel to most injected engines (fuel injectors meter fuel through and orifice that is known to flow a specific amount at a specific pressure, if you change that pressure the fuel flow will go up by the square root of the change). The problem (and the reason why I was asking what fmu was used) is that anything over about 3:1 ratio will put the injector assembly above the range that I know it's reliable in and I've never seen an FMU with smaller then a 4:1 ratio (4:1 will put them at about 40psi at 10psi boost, which I know is enough to force gas out through the seals around the injectors, and from seeing the inside of the injector tower assembly I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't enough to crack some of the thin casting, push out the gaskets and/or mess up the FPR built into it).
Well considering that TBI blower systems have been around with FMU's for years, and the pressure usually rises to about 50 psi, I have noted any of the problems you have mentioned on any Procharger kit that I have installed. I am still in touch with most of those customers. Unless what you are saying is that truck TBI hardware is somehow not susceptible to such failures?
Making a few reasonable assumptions (8psi boost and a 6:1 FMU, which will give you just short of 50psi FP in the 6-9psi boost range that has already been given), you end up with a 42psi pressure differential across the injector. Even if the TB injector setup lived at that pressure differential, you'd still be delivering enough fuel for roughly 30psi of intercooled boost...
No, I haven't tried it, but I would be seriously surprized if the GM TBI setup would live with a 42psi pressure differential across those injectors
The systems do run rich until they are retuned but the pressures are still pretty high when tuned and I cant help but think of all the kits I shipped to customers that dont have the advantage of a dyno.
It's rather simple. 50psi of fuel for a TBI system is pretty crazy and not a wise setup.
I just want to get back to understanding how you figure the car runs high 13's without the blower, this just bogles my mind.
Here is something you might want to read.
"Be aware that FMU's are very finicky on a TBI fuel system. You will definitely need a bleeder valve on the FMU signal line. This allows you to bleed off some signal pressure so the FMU will not boost fuel pressure too high. MPI systems usually do not have this problem with FMU's." quoted from the following link http://home.earthlink.net/~micfly/tuning_fuel.htm
Even though this isn't your setup take notes. It's exactly what I was thinking and what the rest of us believe to be true (not enough experience). Obviously this guy is making things work.
How did you measure your fuel pressure so that you know it's around 50 under full boast?
You'd probably be faster without the intercooler for a very good reason....atomization. The problem with TBI and carb is that it needs a hot intake and or fast moving air with enough turbulance to keep the fuel in suspension, even more so when under pressure. The advantage of a roots blower with carb and TBI is the hot intake air charge which keeps the fuel somewhat happy. The intercooler and a cold running intake on wet-flow isn't always good. This is definatly the case with n/a TBI vehicles that I've worked on first hand and from reading about others similar experiences. Ditch the intercooler and see if that helps but get something figured out about that fuel delivery. Talk to JoBy, he's got a supercharged crossfire 84 vette that's making good power and he's a top notch dude for getting help from.
Just thought I'd pass on this info. I wish I could afford a blower. It would make going fast and passing emissions every year a BREEZE! (mumbling...stupid NJ and their inspection....done mumbling).
Until they make a roots blower for vortec heads.... . It would be interesting to see if you could run with 90# BBC injectors, a small FMU ratio for only 20psi at full boast, and modify the VE tables in the eprom for boast with a 0-5volt 2 bar MAP sensor. This is how the TPI guys do it, couldn't be much more difficult with TBI.
that McFly guy is a loon I heard of him before, alot of his stuff is just plain silly and contrary to what Ive seen, with exeption of his plagurized stuff that he claims as his own. Even S-10'ers wont listen to him because of the way he is. As for the 13 second TBI "stock or even modified" without the power adder 13's are not goanna happen, true. As for the bleed on FMU's vortech offers them, procharger has them as standard along with orafice restriction, and I take it even farther on the dyno along the same lines.
ive run 50 psi with stock injectors and pod on GM TBI and ive talked to people that have run to 70 psi on centrifugal supercharged setups. Later model GM tbis actually ran near 30 psi from the factory, there is a GM regulator designed for this purpose. Ive also seen test data that shows most gm tbi injectors are quite capable of handling high pressures.
I run a NOS external regulator and vortec truck fuel pump currently at 20 psi.
no the casting wont break and no it doesnt leak past the o rings.
First of all, I have been away for quite a while. I have since AS STATED ABOVE purchased a new car, so I have not been on this board as much as I used to. The car did indeed run a high thirteen as it was previously stated. I was at the track to witness it, as were both of my brothers and some friends of mine. I really don't appreciate having BS called on me especially when I am not here to defend myself. This board's purpose is to give help to those who need it, and for those who need it to recieve it. The purpose is NOT to get into a pissing match on what who's car can or can't do.
On to the other topics.
The TBI injectors lock up at about 80-90 PSI, and would be running filthy rich at anything above about 25 under boost (on my car atleast) Before the charger the car also hooked rock solid, with almost no tire spin.
Also Jprevost, do not call BS on somebody, especially if you do not thoroughly understand their setup and what the components do. You could try to ask a question to recieve your answer, but as I stated earlier, I have nothing to prove to you and that is not the reason to post on a forum such as this.
Matt
I don't know if you guys like the newer TA's, but here is a pic from when I bought it back in august.
Ah....since you're here to defend yourself now.....
I DO understand your setup so long as what you've had done is in the sig description.
High 13's without the blower was what you had said. If that's the case and the only mods to the engine are in your sig, and assuming the weight of the vehicle is withing +/- 200 lbs of stock there is no way it was running high 13's. That cam is small, the heads, intake...well now I'm getting down into the ditry details. Would you mind explaining then how the car was running high 13's with just a mild cam, some TB work, headers and a cat-back? Oh yeah, and an aluminum driveshaft.
I know guys with exactly your mods and then some but they're in the high 14's. The facts are set and I'm not asking you to prove to me, just prove it to everyone else. If you don't I'm still calling . I also would appreciate it if your younger brother took the car to the track and got some actual times with the blower. I'm very interested in it's actual gains, not bench racing.
BTW, nice new ride.
Also, JPrevost, If you would have gone two steps further with your "investigation" You would have found some of my other posts with more info on my setup. Bare with me here because it has been a while, But I do believe I tuned my FMU to give me about 21-22#'s of pressure at full boost. I also made myself the ALDL interface for my laptop, read all the params my computer gave me, and was just getting ready to purchase the chip burning equipment when I decided to get a new car. I also contacted joby before and I believe once after I purchased the setup. I never recieved the Email where you were dying to assist me either...
I might sound alittle bit angry, but I don't appreciate being made out for an idiot by some guy on the internet who has never even met me. .
I dont remember all the details on the car, being that I sold it a while ago. If you would really like I could get my dad's email addy for ya (he did all the internal engine work and most of the suspension work before I bought the car)
What's up with the BS flag... I've run 14's with a 305 crossfire engine in my '83 with no internal mods to the engine, just some intake/TB mods, headers and exhaust, through he stock tranny and stock open stock rear, all with 150K miles. I'd be pretty disappointed if a fresh engine, cleaned up head, bigger cam… didn’t run at least high 13’s.
Sounds like the guys you know just don’t know what the hell they’re doing…
WWW.OUTLAWPERFORMANCE.COM
15 seconds with a turbo'd 5.0 TBI... not to knock the setup (awesome by the way) but it seems lacking.
in my experience. I also don't understand why your running a fuel pressure boost that's for a MPFI system! The fuel pump has jack squat to do with the fuel pressure unless you've got a super small return line and/or crappy stock pump like mine.
. It would be interesting to see if you could run with 90# BBC injectors, a small FMU ratio for only 20psi at full boast, and modify the VE tables in the eprom for boast with a 0-5volt 2 bar MAP sensor. This is how the TPI guys do it, couldn't be much more difficult with TBI. 
