mypontiac

Here is a couple of pics of the first twin intercooled 3rd Generation TA ProCharger set up. Thanks to list member Willie, Dorain at ProCharger and Dave at http://www.tenperf.com/header.htm

Enjoy!!!!

mypontiac

Next.

mypontiac

Last one. :lala:

Happy New Year!!!!!

Tom Keliher

Awesome! Congratulations on a successful installation!

How about a sound clip?

Damon

Hey, in my book it's not bragging if you've actually done it!

Very sweet!

KenV

How much;
How many miles and does the 'charger have any issues;
What kind of tune (if you don't mind);
Great job!

This appears to address getting cooler power under the hood of a car that has no grille area of which to speak... Again, great job man.

Peace and Happy Gnu Yeer

K

mypontiac

Hi Damon,

Just trying to get some notice and stirring it up. Ha!!

Hi Tom,

Yea a sound clip would be sweet. It sounds incredible. Willie had told me that people would know something is up just driving down the street. I can take a short video with my digital camera, but the file will be large. Need to find a web site to post it.

Thanks for the interest.

Happy 2002!

mypontiac

Hi KenV,

Price is around $3,800 about 7 months ago. Dave at the stated web site is the only dealer to give this option and is very reasonable.

As far as tuning, this will depend on the amount of boost you will be running. As a minimum you will need a Jacob's or MSD high energy ignition to prevent the flame from going out. Other than that the kit includes everything you will need.

Please be remeinded that this was not an off the shelf set up and will require the installer to fabricate brackets and drill mounting holes as needed.

But if I can do it I believe that anyone with some mechanical skills can too.

I will provide Dorian and Dave with any photos needed to assist in the installation. Willie installed the same set up on his Camaro and provided me photos for my installation.

It is a great set up.

MyPontiac

JAYDUBB

How large is the file? If its not over 10MB, send it to jwilliams3132@comcast.net and I will host it for you.

mypontiac

Thanks. I'll do it tomorrow and send it to you.

Happy New Year!

maniacc

Way to go Sean, the project looks good, where's the little flaps or scoops for the intercoolers???

later
larry

KenV

Thanks for all the information. That's a great price, expecially considering there is little/straightforward fab work for the installer. It will be nice to see the pics when they are available.

Back to the festivities, thanks again for the details!

Peace,

K

StocRoc

iTrader: (1)

Very cool setup. :hail:

Terry Kennedy

iTrader: (5)

MyPontiac, is that for just the intercooler's, or for the whole procharger kit with the intercooler's?

mypontiac

Hi Terry,

The price is for everything. Not sure if there has been an increase since then though.

Hey Maniacc how's it goin???

I have tried to let Willie know my progress but he is missing in action????

Couldn't have done it without the inspiration of you both.

Only problem I am having is that the TB rubber tube keeps blowing off. Did you have this problem?? I stuck a piece of hose between the radiator and the metal ProCharger inlet to brace it. Have not driven it since to see if this solves the problem.

My only other problem is that I now lose traction at 1/2 throttle!!!!!!!

86IROCNJ

I could live with that! j/k I am sure you will find a way to get the power down. Good luck with that too and very nice work. It is good to see someone else do this. I am beginning to believe that maybe within the next couple of years, a set up like that will sit in my engine bay. Good luck with it and let us know what it does at the track. Later-Bryan

maniacc

Sean,

Willie is also having the same problem with the rubber piece coming off of the TB, I'll be sending him some heavy duty turbo clamps tomorrow to see if this will solve his problem. If so, hopefully i can hook you up also...

I can't wait for spring so i can take my ride out and play, looks like i'm gonna have to get ahold of Dave @ tenperf and get me one of those twin set-ups.

later
larry

mypontiac

Have you had any overheating problems??? I know you only use this car for fun.

The set up is a piece of cake to get on with the photos Willie gave me. But it does take some time to measure and get it right.

Please let me know what happens with these clamps. Where did you get them. E-Mail me with the specifics. If I am having issues just running idle I need to solve them.

Thanks.

Kingtal0n

Say, what kinda procharger is that? P-1SC? D-1SC?

I saw a "twin hi-flow intercooled P-1SC Kit"
on ATI's Website. its under 82-88 Camaro section. is that the same thing?

mypontiac

Hi JAYDUBB,

I got the video file taken, but it is 8.8 MB and when I try to email it to you it gets hung up at the very end. I zipped it from 9.8 to 8.8 MB, so I do not know how else to get it to you.

Any suggestions on how to post this file?

mypontiac

Here is a good photo of the intercoolers with the air deflectors installed. Notice the routing of the power steering cooling lines. This is required only for the Firebird/Trans Am.

StocRoc

iTrader: (1)

Mypontiac- I also had problems w/ the rubber piece coming off the throttle body, but only when I let off the gas after having it at full throttle. To solve it I drilled two holes through the hose clamp, rubber boot, and throttle body lip, then I put two little screw in the holes. This solved my problem, and it was very simple. I hope it makes sense, it's kind of hard to explain.

askulte

Upgrading to a larger blow off valve would cure the intake tube popping off when you close the throttle issues. It happens to me on the Z28tt also, but I've got a much larger TIAL BOV waiting to go on there now.

mypontiac

Thanks StocRoc,

So bacally you used some sheet metal screws to help hold it inplace???

Wonder why they are still using this BOV if there are so many of us with this problem???

StocRoc

iTrader: (1)

Ya, thats exactly what I used. They really should do something about this, b/c it seems to be really common.

maniacc

The problem is the clamps that come with the ATI kit are not made for boost applications, they have no room to expand or contract, that is the reason company's make heavy duty(constant torque) and t-bolt/spring clamps...We use these clamps for millions of miles on semi trucks that see 25+psig boost daily.

Sean, if your hose is popping of the TB @ idle, sounds like the by-pass valve is not opening. not a clamping issue...

later
larry

mypontiac

Maybe you have something there. I was told by ProCharger that this will cause the vibration at start up too.

I am going to start it up tomorrow with the surge hose open to atmosphere to see what happens.

B4Ctom1

some times the surge valve hose gets too kinked during install and wont flow, also make sure you have the surge valve hooked up like they told you (not on the FMU circuit)

mypontiac

Looks like I got it fixed.

My mechanic thought that the belt was too tight so I loosened it. After the car had set for a while I had my wife start the car while I watched the surge valve.

The valve did open immediately and also there was no more vibration.

I am hoping that the belt was too tight and with the cold nights the belt was probably even tighter in the morning. So this was causing excessive binding at initial start up???

I will do the same check tomorrow morning. Hopefully this problem is over.

Hi B4Ctom1,

I checked for kinks and the routing is smooth. I teed the 1/8 " vaccum line from the surge valve into the 7/16" line going to the map sensor. Thought maybe the reduction in diameter at the tie in was causing a hesitation in the opening of the valve, but it opened fine when I looked at it today.

Actually, at the advise of list member Willie, I am not running a FMU. He said it would not be necessary with the boost I am at (10 psi max). I am having the car dynoed and metered with a wide band OS sensor at Thunder Racing Saturday so I will see if I have any lean running problems that cannot be compensated with just the adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.

Thanks for the suggestions. Will update tomorrow. Keep fingers crossed.

mypontiac

On a good note. I have made many changes to the car including:

SLP headers and 3" exhaust
Crane Cam
SLP intake runners
SLP air foil
SLP High Performance chip
Crane roller rockers
TPIS big mouth intake
Accel 23# injectors
Racetronix high flow/pressure fuel pump and wiring harness
All new ignition items (wires, cap, rotor, etc)
Jacob's Pro Street Ignition System

The car was always running rich naturally aspirated and had a rough idle. Now that the SC is installed the idle has smoothed out to perfection!!

I thought that the SC only added performance at boost levels, but it appears that more air is still entering the TB than under normal aspirated conditions. Does this sound right??? The car also feels like there is more power under normal low throttle conditions.

I would imagine that not all of the air is being bypassed through the surge pipe?

I am not sure of all the Physics going on here, but I do know that I LIKE IT!!!!

B4Ctom1

no FMU your running a blower specific chip or a super fueler then right? I see SLP chip but for what? if it is a standard SLP performanc echip then the timing might be too dangerous for a blown application. page 1 of blower installation instuctions from most manufacturers, "remove aftermarket chips, ecm, or rpogramming"? BTW just forgetting to hook up the line on my FMU results in near instant detonation and a extremely lean condition on my P1sc at only 9 psi max (eventually contributed to failure of a headgasket). hooking it up with the as delivered ratio resulted in an extremely rich condition but 45 mins of tuning on my chassis dyno resulted in a fuel curve I dare any chip burner to beat.

mypontiac

Thanks for the suggestions. I figured that the no FMU would get someones attension.

I will go back to the stock chip to be safe.

Although Willie said that the timing advance of the chip should be OK.

Willie told me that I would not need the FMU so I had later purchased a SuperFueler used at an awsome price. When I informed him of the purchase he said that I did not need this either and to get out of the deal unless I wanted to waste money. So I sold it to someone who approached the original seller.

Does it make a difference that I am running 23 # injectors and a 255 lph fuel pump??

Bottom line is that the dyno should tell me if I need the FMU or SuperFueler right???

That is why I am getting it done only 3 days after installing the SC.

Believe me I don't want to damage anything, but Willie was my GURU so I have been following his advise.

I am still on a learning curve here. But at least I made it this far.

mypontiac

Here was a post from Willie concerning the FMU at the Camaro Z28 site.

I guess this is why he did not advise that I needed it for my set up??

Interesting post. Just adds to the confusion.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...ht=superfueler

Looks like the Dyno will be the key here.

I cannot speak for others, only my personal experience. I have discovered on my 305 TPI that I do not need "additional" fuel until 10-psig boost (I run over 14). Up through 10-psig, my O2 voltage is constant at 840mV. But at 10-psig, it starts to lean out.

The problem with an FMU is that it delivers additional fuel on a linear curve from the onset of boost. If I were to use one, I would run extremely rich from 0 to 10 pounds. Definitely not the way to make power.

The solution to my condition is the Carroll Superfueler. I have it calibrated to start injecting additional fuel at 9-psig thru 18-psig. It works perfectly!!


__________________
Willie

B4Ctom1

did you get the superfueler, how much was it going for, is it still available? yes the dyno will tell. we had alot of cars on the dyno where guys tried to "just" install the 255 in tank instead of the inline and were running out of fuel at full boost and high RPM, the dyno knows.

B4Ctom1

This would be totally true if you installed the FMU and never adjusted it, or never re-ratio'd it with a lower ratio plate (all the plates are available cheap from ATI). I like the basic style FMU's, over the super FMU's like the one previously sold by BBK, and the super sold by cartech and vortech. the regular one sold by vortech (non super style) is as fine a unit as the ATI one. a person has but to adjust the bleed, install the orafice restrictor (now comes with the procharger FMU) and change the ratio plate till your close then use the bleed to lean it out and voila you got in 45 mins and a few $100 cheaper what guys are trying to do with chips.

mypontiac

I'm waiting for a call from my ATI technician. I am going to see about trading the inline pump for the FMU. I have read from many other posts that the inline is to be used with a stock tank pump. It is not needed with the high pressure/flow pumps and am told that it will actually restrict the flow.

I bought it from Racetronix. There are many post about this subject at the CamaroZ28 web site.

The superfueler was sold for $450. There is one right now on the Camaro site for $650. I was actually advised by Carrolsuperchaging to go with an FMU instead of the superfueler since the FMU allows even delivery of fuel to all ports.

On another subject, the propane injection looks interesting. Cools the intake temperature and delivers fuel. But you need to store that damn big bottle!!

I suspect that I will need the FMU so as not to be rich on the bottom end. But I had the new intank pump just installed 2 weeks ago so that I would not need the inline. Hope I am right on this one. I do have a seperate harness going to the pump to give it 13.5 volts. So maybe this is the difference with the Racetronix set up.

When I losened the belt I noticed that it has begun to walk off the crank pulley. More adjustments here!

MdFormula350

awesome looking setup and car!!

mypontiac

I got a new belt from NAPA and it fits perfect. Got the tension just right and it is staying in place.

Since I added the Racetronix high flow/pressure intank pump and wiring kit good for almost 600 hp I don't need the supplied ATI inline pump. I am going to exchange it for the ATI FMU.

So I can take advantage of the exchange for the FMU and not have any additional out of pocket cost. And this is a good thing considering what I have spent in the last year on the car!!!!

See this link for the inline pump discussion. Good information: http://web.camaross.com/forums/show...t=racetronix+hp

See this link for Racetronix web site: http://www.racetronix.com/product/R...8_Pump_Kit.html
Very high quality set up. Easy install. Like a stock install. All high quality plugs for new wiring harness.

I have contacted Ed Wright and pcmforless to get an initial chip burned so I can get the car tuned at Thunder Racing once the FMU and chip are installed. I am also getting a wide band set up from FJO Enterprises to monitor the air/fuel ratio on a daily basis.

I would of course like to see hp around 400, but I am hoping that the new accell 23# injectors will be adequate. Anyone running these on a 400 hp engine?

This should be it so me for a while. Getting burned out and broke! And with leaving my wife with taking of our 4 children ages 5 and under, I may end up being divorced too!

Kingtal0n

Does an Autometer Air/fuel guage work with a wide band O2 sensor?

B4Ctom1

no, an autometer AF ratio gauge and many gauges like it operate like a volt meter reading the piezoelectric voltage generating properties of the standard O2 sensor. Since a W/B O2 uses many different piezoelectric outputs (instead of just one like a standard O2) it plainly would not work, wouldnt even be able to hook up (too many wires). Gauges used with W/B O2 sensors usually have a processor to convert inputs to the proper display voltage. Most I have seen are for dyno use (large display gauge)

mypontiac

Hi Kingtal0n,

Go to http://www.alamomotorsports.com/fjo_wideband.html


You need to be willing to make a $$$$$ sacrafise when dealing with wide band O2 set ups, but if you are running a blown set up without it you may be rebuilding an engine.

Most dyno shops have a wide band O2 set up to help you tune.

Kingtal0n

hmm... very very expensive. And the main difference (from what little i read / gathered) is the ability to adjust with Exhaust gas tempeurature... is that it?

or is there some other difference?

I see the stock O2 sensors make a solid guess of exhaust gas tempeurature. hmm... that means if you use just any-old O2 sensor it might be adjusted for a different temp.

that could explain alot of problem IM having with it..

not to mention the interference mine collects. when i switch on my headlights, the voltage drops and causes the O2 sensor to read leaner than a moment before.

weird huh?

I bet an EFI setup that utilizes a WB 02 sensor is pretty $$$. I wonder if holley has support or will have support for it in their EFI kits.

mypontiac

No Actually, the wide band O2 sensor is the only way to accurately tune your car for the best air/fuel ratio.

The wide band sensors utilize a heating element to get their operating tempature up faster.

Stock 2 wire O2 sensors are only used by the ECM to get average readings in adjusting the injector fuel output in a non power enriched mode.

A wide band sensor is needed to tune in power enriched or WOT mode.

Do some searching of "wide band" to get more information.

Kingtal0n

so the factory O2 sensor is FINE for highway cruising then... and the WB 02 sensor is important for WOT situations, or non open-loop. makes sense. the speed density stops using the O2 sensor when it goes open loop.. is that because it cant handle it? or is it just because...

Ill do a search too. thanks.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Narrow band O2’s are pretty much useless for tuning. Even when running at light throttle cruise where the ECM is adjusting mixture by O2 it doesn’t use the O2 voltage. It is only accurate in a narrow enough band that the ecm could never keep the mixture in that range. What the ECM does is counts and times when the output of the O2 crosses the V that is supposed to be stoichometric (sp?... I know I butchered that one). Essentially it just tries to keep the engines time above that value the same as below, it never actually trusts that the O2 is reading a correct value…

Widebands are slightly better, but still not THAT useful. They are mostly useful in telling you that you’re in a safe range and to give you consistency in tuning using other methods. The problem is that it can tell you that you’re at 13:1, but that doesn’t mean that you’re at a best place for the engine. Traditionally, the assumption is that best power is made at about 12.3:1 and torque a little lower, but that doesn’t mean that it is for your engine. You’re pretty much safe in figuring that you’ll make best power someplace between 11.5:1 and 14:1, but where you’d have to find using other means (as far as I’m concerned, the best way is at the track, since with a good driver performance is more meaningful and at least as repeatable as on the dyno… I don’t really place much stock in dynos). BTW, none of the relatively cheaply available WBO2's for in car use come closer then =/- .5 accuracy, so you pretty much can't rely on them for half a point changes and you never want to see over about 13 at WOT. Those used on dynos can be more accurate, but only if they're callibrated often (like between every car, which is rarely done) and replaced almost as often (every time if used on a car running race gas or avgas)

Kingtal0n

man your making the whole closed loop 02 operation sound useless!

so let me guess, the EGT guage is more usefull right?

mypontiac

I need to make some updates from my previous posts concerning fuel delivery.

After discussing the need for the ATI inline fuel pump with my ATI tech advisor, I have been advised by him to add the inline pump even with the high flow Racetronix set up. He said the reason is that under boost the high flow pump will lose too much volume capacity, but with the addition of the inline pump the volume does not drop off. I guess the topics that I was getting my Racetronix information from were for 600 hp naturally aspirated cars. This would work for them since the fuel pressure would not be as high.

So I will be adding the inline pump and the FMU.

I have been discussing chip burning with the technision from Pcmforless. I am very impressed with my discussion with him. He is going to work with me to get the chip programing correct for the car. Since I do intend on doing some of my own programming later he said that if I get the prom programmer then he can email the data files and I can burn the proms. This will eliminate the need to do continuous chip mailing back and forth every time a change in the program is made. I will send him data files collected from the car utilizing a diognostic program and he will send me the prom files he makes based on the information I send him. Sounds cool to me!

After all this work has been done then fine tuning will be made from data collected from a dyno run utilizing a wide band O2 set up and from a wide band O2 set up I plan on adding to the car.

A lot of work here. But the end product will be worth it!

Thanks to everyone for their help, advise and support.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Useless, no, not for the ECM. By keeping the mixture swinging around stoichometric it allows the ECM to tune for best mileage and emissions. For hooking a guage to and trying to tune your car… almost completely useless. All you’re seeing is the average V output which really doesn’t have much of anything to do with what it was designed to measure. On some cars it will give you some means for comparison, but it is way outside the range of those gauges anyway (EX, stock LT1’s usually run fastest with O2’s in the mid to high 800’s, tubo buicks with substantially lower O2’s, but that doesn’t tell you what A/F ratio you’re at, everything from too rich to too lean at WOT would show as way rich on one of those gauges and for that matter will not give you any indication if you’re momentarily going dangerously lean, a normal O2 sensor doesn’t react fast enough to tell you)

For tuning??? No. None of these are really great for tuning. WBO2 and EGT are helpful for telling you if you’re in a safe range or not, that’s all. For ragged edge apps, especially boosted and turbo motors, EGT’s will tell you if you’re reaching exhaust temperatures which will start melting/burning up parts, which some turbo motors would be capable of at even reasonable tunes. Normal O2 isn’t good for anything except for part throttle and idle tuning by an ecm. Once you’re in the safe range, then the best for tuning is actual performance. How it feels, sounds and transitions at part throttle and whatever makes the best power at WOT (I prefer track testing to dyno, since you can’t really compare dyno runs between dynos or even between sessions that are more then a few minutes apart, and at least track performance is reproducible in driving, where there are tons of “dyno queens” out there that make XXX hp and can’t get out of their own way).

SATURN5

There is a low cost WBo2 available.

http://www.diy-wb.com/ If you can do simple soldering, its not to bad to assemble. (I've built several). Total cost is around 200. (mostly for the sensor). (Hint: Get a Bruce Roe display too.)

Also... all this discussion of WB and EGT's... nothing regarding doing regular plug cuts while tuning. Learning how to "read" your plugs will tell you lots of information about whats going on inside your engine. It's old school, and takes practice, but it is one more thing to help "tune" your setup.

Hey mypontiac. Have you ever thought about using a 749 ECM and $58 code? cheers, BW

mypontiac

WBO2 and EGT are helpful for telling you if you’re in a safe range or not, that’s all.

I am confused by this statement 83 Crossfire TA?

You must mean narrow band O2?

I have read dozens of posts on why you NEED a wide band O2 sensor to tune the car at WOT and that this is the only way to do it (Or by plug cutting, but I am talking about gages here.).

I just put out big $$$ on an FJO wide band set up to fine tune my supercharged car. Completely confident that it was the correct thing to do.

The ProCharger literature states that you need a wide band O2 set up, my technision at pcmforless will need the wide band O2 data to fine tune the car at WOT, and I want to be aware of my air/fuel ratio while running the car.

I agree with you on the real track runs better than dyno tuning that is why I have the data collecting feature on the wide band O2 set up. I can get real life data with RPM vs. fuel/air ratio to tune the car.

You can't tune the car by FEEL???

You will be feeling you way to a blown up engine.

What are you getting at??? I must be misunderstanding you.