Power AdderGetting a Supercharger or Turbocharger? Thinking about using Nitrous? All forced induction and N2O topics discussed here.
Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!
Originally posted by 89JYturbo For all you guys wondering about the lag associated with this system, let me give you a comparison. This week at work we installed a Turbonetics kit on a 99 Civic Si. This system used a T3/T4 Hybrid (ball bearings, .63AR stage 3 turbine, t04b 57trim compressor with .50AR). It has a FMIC with 2.5" piping. This turbo was a bit overkill for the B16 (1.6 litre), and had very similar turbo lag characteristics as my cavalier. Now this Civic would probably mutilate my cavvy on the strip, it goes to show that there is surprisingly little lag even with the turbo mounted far rearward. Hey, as long as you are matting the throttle while the engine is in its powerband, there is very little lag. Just food for thought.
I'm anxious for someone to try this on a third gen and give us some results. Anyone thinking about trying it yet?!
I am in the process of trying it now not sure what turbo to use yet
This ad is not displayed to registered members. Register your free account today and become a member on ThirdGen!
Sponsored Links
Registered users do not see this ad. Click here to register for free!
Just got back from Cecil County Dragway in MD. Got some new times for the my RMT Z24, this is the first time I raced it since I installed the 3400V6 and larger turbo .
I was happy with the results, but I have one problem- Its almost as fast as my TT IROC now! Its amazing what light weight cars can run with mild HP (I estimate 300 or so). Oh well, I guess I will just have to make the IROC faster:-). (actually, I never raced the IROC with the upgraded turbochargers, and I only ran the IROC at 6psi versus 10 for the Cavvy).
Results:
Total passes for the day: 8
Number of 12.5xx passes: 1
Number of 12.6xx passes: 3
Number of 12.7xx passes: 2
Number of passes at 114+ MPH: 5
At 114+mph, I should have run closer to 11s, but the short times were pretty sloppy (I am in no way a good drag racer- FWD makes it al the harder!).
I drove to car to the track, which was just under an hour and a half drive. This car is my daily driver, and the only thing I changed to race it was the front tires and wheels (BFG drag radials). It gets over 20MPG so long as you use the boost conservatively, and has A/C and all the emissions equipement installed.
Boost pressure was my Stage II setting (10psi), and I was spraying alcohol/water injection to keep the intake charge temps in hand. The engine is a TOTALLY STOCK 2002 3400 from a Venture Van, the turbo is a Garrett TO4B Vtrim with a .63A/R Stage II turbine. It would be very easy for anyone out there to reproduce this system. Then we could gang up on all those Mustangs and Imports out there that think they are fast!
Huh… nice… yea, that should be an 11.8-11.9 with some good shifting/driving, but still, you’re making some power. Any idea what the car weighs? Any idea at what rate you’re injecting water/alcohol and what mix?
BTW, looks like we’re almost neighbors, I’m in MD, about an hour or so from cecil (Wife’s parents live in Rising Sun, about 5 min from the track). Maybe we should meet up up there sometime this summer (between me, my brother and a few friends we should have some interesting stuff running by the end of spring).
That's awesome.
How much does it weigh exactly now? I guess it must be quite light still.
It's funny, that's almost exactly my Talon's turbo, except I have a stg III turbine wheel, everything else is the same. I've ran 117.7 mph with it in my 2.0 that weighs 3260 with me in it, but on 23-24 psi.
You should honestly consider selling kits like that for those, and the newer Cavaliers, if you can make them for as relatively cheap as it sounds like you can, and the proof is in the pudding. 13.9 out of a stock bazillion-mile 2.8 with a small-ish turbo is nothing to ignore IMO. For those who want to do better, your current setup could be sold for a bit more.
Better yet, do those pesky 2.8 and 3.1 thirdgens a favor.
A slower run, you can see I had to counter-steer after the 1-2 shift due to tire spin. This run was actually the slowest MPH I had all day for a clean run (I ran 5 passes with 114+mph!)
Whee. Must be quite a rush! I'm turning over some ideas on how to do a rear-axle turbo job on my GTA, just for kicks. Sounds realy fun, and looks it too!
You know, for people like me who don't really have access, or skills welding this could probably be one of the best methods to turbo a car for the welding/money impaired.
Originally posted by Thirdgen89GTA You know, for people like me who don't really have access, or skills welding this could probably be one of the best methods to turbo a car for the welding/money impaired.
IMO, that is THE best reason for RMT. I always had faith in the RMT system (Ok, not right at first, but ever since I first drove my Z24 with a RMT I was sold on the idea). However, after running mid twelves with my Z24, I have an even higher respect for the RMT idea (I'm glad STS dis it first, I would have never dreamt up something like this!).
Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA Huh… nice… yea, that should be an 11.8-11.9 with some good shifting/driving, but still, you’re making some power. Any idea what the car weighs? Any idea at what rate you’re injecting water/alcohol and what mix?
BTW, looks like we’re almost neighbors, I’m in MD, about an hour or so from cecil (Wife’s parents live in Rising Sun, about 5 min from the track). Maybe we should meet up up there sometime this summer (between me, my brother and a few friends we should have some interesting stuff running by the end of spring).
I will try to notify you next time I get down there. I need to get my TT IROC into the 11s now (I was scared for a while that I might make my Z24 run a better pass than my IROC's best of 12.4!
I am pretty confident that mt TT IROC will get into the 11's with a little more boost (I had run 6psi before, plan to run 10psi) and the larger turbos that are on it now.
Originally posted by 89JYturbo Last I checked, 2970 with me in it (2750 or so w/o). So yes, it is light.
But I should still be making enough power to propel a V6 f-body to the traps faster than a mild L98.
Heh… with some creativity, you should be able to sneed a V6 f-body into the sub 3000# range, and there would be more room for packaging…
Quote:
Originally posted by 89JYturbo I will try to notify you next time I get down there. I need to get my TT IROC into the 11s now (I was scared for a while that I might make my Z24 run a better pass than my IROC's best of 12.4!
I am pretty confident that mt TT IROC will get into the 11's with a little more boost (I had run 6psi before, plan to run 10psi) and the larger turbos that are on it now.
Heh, my stock (mostly) Formula 350 is turning 13.5’s@100, high 11’s@114 with some spray. I’m hoping to sneak 10-15psi and some race gas into the combination by the end of spring…
Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA
Heh, my stock (mostly) Formula 350 is turning 13.5’s@100, high 11’s@114 with some spray. I’m hoping to sneak 10-15psi and some race gas into the combination by the end of spring…
O'k, so were do you think the other .60 second is in my car (12.59 @ 114.7 mph versus your high 11 at the same trap speed)?? Is it all hiding in the first 60', or am I shifting too slow? I flat shift, and I didn't think a 1.9 60' was that bad.
I ran a 1.8 60’ na and 1.71 on the spray on eagle ZR radials and am shifting the thing at 4600 (auto + TPI, it doesn’t like revs at all, I think the datalogs on one of my faster runs had me shifting as high as 4750, but no higher)
My wife is addicted to boost, after driving the TTA for a few days. She's going to hate driving her car when we get it back from the shop (she even told me that), so I'm going to try to sell her on the RMT idea for her car. 3100 with I read this post, the more I like it. I'm not looking to blast some 12's or even 13's with it, but just something with some punch to it. I can even deal with a bit of lag. What size turbo would be ideal for a daily-driven 3100?
(I'll do the GTA if this works...)
__________________ '89 TTA - Will Work For Brakes
'89 Firebird - Will Work For Paperwork
'06 Vibe - Will Work For Baby Seats That Fit
'90 Mazda 323 - Will Work For TLC
Originally posted by pvt num 11 I'm not looking to blast some 12's or even 13's with it, but just something with some punch to it. I can even deal with a bit of lag. What size turbo would be ideal for a daily-driven 3100?
(I'll do the GTA if this works...)
I had a 45 trim T3 on my 2.8, and it worked very well (.42 A/R compressor, .48 A/R turbine). It was responsive for being remote mounted, and pulled good to 5500 rpm. However, the compressor side was too small, and would be operating past the choke line above 4000 or so RPM on a 3100.
From the what you tell me about how you plan to use the car, I think I would go for a Garrett T3 with a 60 trim compressor and stage 1 turbine wheel with the .48 A/R turbine housing. This would give excellent response on the 3100, as well as high efficiency.
"Temperature range: Fluid temperatures up to 265°F (130°C) constant"
Hmmm. Thats funny. That pump looks remarkably similar to my SHURflo (I would bet money on it that it is made by SHURflo). I alos had the same choises on the valve material. I remember goping through the specs charts with the salesman, the diaphragms and valves were optional in buna and viton. I wonder why SHURflo only rates their pump to 180°F???
BTW- thanks Tom for pointing them pumps out. It costs more than double of my SHURflo, but it would make me feel better knowing that I'm not regualrly putting oil through my pump that is hotter than it is rated for. I am commonly seeing 180°F on my temp gauge with the sensor mountied in the engine oil pan- who knows how hot it is after the turbo (of course the oil may be cooled a bit too after traveling through the 1/4" steel brake tubing back to the turbo).
The price on those pumps is far more reasonable than the other options we have explored. This may be my choice if my SHURflo ever gives out (15,000 miles on it now, and it only cost $93.00).
can you show me the shure flo? like in a picture? does it have the lil motor cooler fan etc? either way, I am glad that if in any way this was helpful. also, what type material diaphram did you go with?
My pump does not come with the cooler fan. That is the only difference I could see. (I kind of remeber a few of them at the store had fans though). But the motor is rated for coniuous duty, and they sold me a heat-sink to put on the motor for extra insurance (see the pics I posted a little furhter back in ths thread, page 2).
you know, at first I didn't understand your question. Then I realized that your misunderstanding poses a whole new questsion or atleast revealed a point of interest.
see we have been addressing the idea of simply working to get the oil returned to the oil pan of the engine.
the issue we have been addressing is the fact that any oil return line that is too long or has too many bends results in a "back-up" of the return oil flow. This causes the oil to overpower the seals and causes it to enter the turbo and much smoking and such occurs.
We have been working to overcome this with pumps that will return the oil under force back to the oil pan, eliminating the smoky "back-up" problem.
The idea that we could produce a fully divorced oil system seems ideal. since the turbo is already encountering a reduced exhaust temperature, this idea could also help isolate it from the hot engine oil as well.
The problem as I see it would be the fact that the turbo may require a higher oil pressure than we are generating with any of these pumps.
also due to the fact that a return/supply sump still might not be able to be placed directly "below" the turbo. if it couldn't, then a return oil pump would still be required. This would (unless a creative plan were made) require two pumps.
I figure if the pressure requirements of a turbo arent too high, that the divorced system would require a cooler possible with a fan (available for around $150) two pumps (one for return and one for feed pressure) and a sump of some sort, as well as some lines and safety switches to ensure the system is performing back there uninterupted to protect the turbo.
The pump I suggested is a circulation pump. The rear differential or manual transmissions this tilton pump is generaly used with have no pressurized oil needs for bearings or otherwise. the pump is used to circulate the oil from the case, through a cooler, and back to the diff or manual tranny. This allows the oil to continue to maintain lubricity and viscosity it loses when superheated, as it is cooled.
I recall reading that many turbochargers dont' require that much PSI... somewhere in the area of a 9-14psi feed...a lot have restrictors placed before the turbo to do this. If that is so... they even that sureflow pump should be able to provide that kinda of pressure/volume I'd think....
Someone please correct me if I am wrong...and or crazy.
Originally posted by 87F383 I recall reading that many turbochargers dont' require that much PSI... somewhere in the area of a 9-14psi feed...a lot have restrictors placed before the turbo to do this. If that is so... they even that sureflow pump should be able to provide that kinda of pressure/volume I'd think....
Someone please correct me if I am wrong...and or crazy.
My SHURflo is rated for 60psi. I have thought about building a seperate oil system for the turbo, but decided it was much easier and less complex (read reliable) to just use engine oil and use scavenge pump to send it back to the engine.
I don't plan to change my system anytime soon- it works very well (and has been for 15k miles and a full year). If I change anything, I may install the pump B4Ctom suggested.
I think that just the one pump and a "pre-cooler" would do the same thing without all of the complexity or need for re-engineering or multiple pumps or a sump.
Car: 1992 B4C/1LE/L98///1992 Z28/Heritage Edition?/L98 white with Black stripes///1992 Z28 Convertible Heritage Edition, L03 with RMT, white w/Red Stripes///1992 RS, Heritage Edition, white with red stripes
Originally posted by 89JYturbo My SHURflo is rated for 60psi.
I have just completed my RMT setup using the Shurflo pump on the oil return side. I now get oil coming out of my oil dipstick (passenger side) and around the oil filler cap (drivers side, this is where the oil returns). Is it possible that the pump is pressurizing the block and forcing the oil out?
What to do?
Originally posted by dj's B4C I have just completed my RMT setup using the Shurflo pump on the oil return side. I now get oil coming out of my oil dipstick (passenger side) and around the oil filler cap (drivers side, this is where the oil returns). Is it possible that the pump is pressurizing the block and forcing the oil out?
What to do?
Also, car is now overheating. Sup wit dat?
Thanks!
wuts up wit dat, is possibly you have a worn out motor and it is blowing the compression past the rings, or you have a poor pcv valve system. also exhaust restrictions(turbo) and warmer airflow to the engine would make it run warmer.
Originally posted by dj's B4C I have just completed my RMT setup using the Shurflo pump on the oil return side. I now get oil coming out of my oil dipstick (passenger side) and around the oil filler cap (drivers side, this is where the oil returns). Is it possible that the pump is pressurizing the block and forcing the oil out?
What to do?
Also, car is now overheating. Sup wit dat?
Thanks!
Definitely sounds like a crankcase vent issue. When you run boost, if the PCV valve doesn't close off completely (most don't), you will pressurize your crankcase, causing the issues you are having. IT IS NOT the turbo scavenge pump causing this.
How is your crankcase vented? Is it vented?
The overheating is not a turbo issue, unless it is overheating from sustained boosted operation, in which case your cooling system was borderline anyway.
Car: 1992 B4C/1LE/L98///1992 Z28/Heritage Edition?/L98 white with Black stripes///1992 Z28 Convertible Heritage Edition, L03 with RMT, white w/Red Stripes///1992 RS, Heritage Edition, white with red stripes
Found out that the return line fitting that I made for the oil filler cap has been leaking inside of the cap, then dripping on the valve cover. Will fix that and see what happens.
The engine was rebuilt two years ago (by a garage by previous owner) so I was hoping that the engine was up to the RMT setup. Will fix the cap, put a breather on the opposite valve cover and see if the problems persist....stay tuned!
Thanks for the responses!
Car: 1992 B4C/1LE/L98///1992 Z28/Heritage Edition?/L98 white with Black stripes///1992 Z28 Convertible Heritage Edition, L03 with RMT, white w/Red Stripes///1992 RS, Heritage Edition, white with red stripes
89JYturbo
How much boost have you been running?
Tried to silcone the edges of the factory oil filler cap but some how the damn oil still finds it's way out of the cap and on to the valve cover, which of course spills onto the exhaust manifolfs and I get smoke! Car sounds REAL cool, just looks bad sitting there smoking!
This weekend project is to tap directly into the valve cover instead of going through the oil cap. Should eliminate the problem.
Anyway, car sounds GREAT! The added boost is just what I was looking for! Really wakes the ol' 305 up. Gonna have to run one of my Z28 l98's against it to see how fast it is.
Just ordered more stuff so I can RMT my remaining Camaros!
Car: 1992 B4C/1LE/L98///1992 Z28/Heritage Edition?/L98 white with Black stripes///1992 Z28 Convertible Heritage Edition, L03 with RMT, white w/Red Stripes///1992 RS, Heritage Edition, white with red stripes
I have been running 6psi for daily driving, 10psi for racing or just for fun. The Z24 is pretty wild with that much boost (can you say torque steer?).
Tapping straight into the valve cover should work better for you and make a more reliable seal. What engine is this system on (TPI or TBI?). 6psi in either of the 305's should smoke a 350, assuming you tune is good. BTW, how are you adding fuel for once the boost comes in?
Can you possibly write down all the parts you used and how to pipe the system???
I am 200% down to do the set up on a 89 LO3.
My mufflers are cut off, and the pipe is set up to take a turbo. I figured a way to make an air cleaner take the boost to the TBI. New pump will be coming in as well. 255walbro.
I am sick of hearing crap about the system. All I say, this is the easiest way to fabricate yet appear stock way.
Please let me know all the stuff that went into it.
I, by no means know anything about turbo's but with a right schematics I can fab something up.
Therer is a list at the beginning of this thread. Your first step though, for any turbocharger project, is to learn about turbochargers. 99.9% of the unsuccessful turbo projects are blamed on the turbo, when it is actually just improper installation/tuning. Unless you buy your turbo off eBay (esp from SSAutoChrome), then the turbo may actually be the problem (they are Garrett imitations from somewhere overseas).
Buy and read these books for more turbo info:
Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
Originally posted by 89JYturbo There is a list at the beginning of this thread. Your first step though, for any turbocharger project, is to learn about turbochargers (not to be rude, but if you can't figure out how to plumb it yourself, you probably won't ever get it running right anyway). 99.9% of the unsuccessful turbo projects are blamed on the turbo, when it is actually just improper installation/tuning. Unless you buy your turbo off eBay, then the turbo may actually be the problem (esp from dealers like SSAutoChrome- they are Garrett imitations from somewhere overseas, and will fail quickly- I found out the hard way).
Buy and read these books for more turbo info:
Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
since we covered oiling a turbo and returning the oil so thoroughly here, I never quit thinking about it, and then I saw this in one of the magazines. I'm sure it's a part they introduced at PRI or SEMA that we wont be able to find on line for a little while.
Just something to think about. I would like to see STS use this as well.
considering the short system, I am betting they are using a EFI fuel pump for a oil pump. considering the way they work there is no reason against it. I have actually seen them used for this before.
89JY....what size diameter pipe do you run from the turbo up to the TB???Did you use header wrap to keep the pipe going into the turbo as hot as possible??
Thanks for the info...your Caviler is what got me motivated to do my 200sx..what size is the exhaust pipe feeding the turbo?do you think its a good idea to heat wrap this pipe or its not worth the hassle??
"TWNTRBO"
