Quote: Originally Posted by midniteplowboyy A few years ago my tach started acting all kinds of crazy, but when mine did it ran like A$$, turned out to be the pickup coil I believe. It drove me nuts trying to find the problem because it only happened when it wanted to, I tried everything, bypassed the crane box thought that was it, ran good for a week, replaced module, nope, replaced coil, nope, about a month later when it done it again I replaced the pickup coil. HTH Sounds like the old small cap HEI rusty pick-up problem. GM did a great job on making HEI modules but the small cap pick-up was always less than perfect. I wonder if you could have narrow it down to just the pick-up coil using the ALDL flag data info. Something like DRP occured in last 6.25ms flag or something.....just rambling here I guess. Good to hear that you have it fixed.

You nailed it, old small cap. I didn't think about dataloging it, but it was so intermentent and all I had at the time was my old Strap-On scanner. No loss though, I had all those spare parts lying around, so it didn't cost me anything.



On 83 Crossfire TA's car, couldn't he take his original coil trigger wire from the module and tee the tach wire into it, before the crane box wouldn't that work?



83 Crossfire TA how many wires are attached to your coil?

Ok, either you're missing what I'm trying to say or you’ve lost me… simple answer, here’s crane’s wiring diagram:


The stock coil has 2 plugs with 2 contacts in each plug, they are just duplicate + and – connections on the coil… without looking up exactly how they get there, I understand that one of the + connections is +12VDC, one of the – is the trigger (I’m assuming from the HEI module) and the other – is the tach signal, off the top of my head I don’t know what the other + connection does.

Now in my car it’s basically wired the same way as in that diagram except that I no longer have a factory style coil, instead I have the LX92 that only has 2 connections.

Right now all the positive and negative connections that were originally made at the coil are now made on small red and white wires going into the crane box, and the coil is connected to the output, the orange and brown wires coming out of the crane box.

Now unless the crane box is leaking some of it’s output current into it’s input I do not understand how it could possibly be zapping the tach.

This is also the way that MSD recommends connecting their boxes.

Accel does something a little different and gets rid of the second plug that used to go to the coil, actually unplugs it from the other end (at the HEI module) and run’s it’s green and some other wire I can’t remember now to the HEI module connection)

The small red wire IIRC sent power to your module, the small white wire with the large red ign wire at the coil connector, is your tach wire, it should have a single wire grey connector IIRC within a foot of the original coil, that is your tach wire. Stock was somthing like this.


IGN. 12+
!
!
!
!
!----RED------ (COIL +)-----[ M ]
[ C ],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[ O ]
[ O ],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[ D ]
[ I ],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[ U ]
[ L ],,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[ L ]
! ----WHITE -- (COIL -)-----[ E ]
!
!
TACH

I would just tie the two whites together and the two reds together, hook the whites to the cranes trigger and the reds to its 12v+ input. Thats the way mine is, but mine didn't have a tach output IIRC.

That's pretty much what I described right above your post midnight...

Here's for the LO3. Most factory setups for these cars look about the same.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/at...l?d=1136899401

Another thought is that if this a supreme high energy ignition curcuit, possibly the coil is inducing some back EMF on the trailing edge of the coil fire that's saturating some other part in the tach. I don't know the specs on any of this so it's just a crazy guess. I seriously doubt this, but you could try connecting some really high voltage diode backward across ther coil terminals to see if it makes any difference as well.

Yea, your right, for some reason your diagram didn't load last time. Sorry about that, I was thinking your box had its own tach output, not jumpered at th connector.

The other + wire feeds power to the HEI module.
That pic is how I would have tried hooking it up. The Crane box must be drawing enough current to cause inductive ringing on the trigger signal from the HEI (brown vehicle wire from HEI module) when the HEI module fires it. The tach is seeing that and causing the RPM jump. Or the tach wire is picking up stuff from the Crane output firing the coil (I would be very surprised if this is happening).

The only thing I can think of is trying the green wire to the tach. Make sure the distr. has a good ground to the block via the hold-down clamp. Make sure the engine has a good ground back to somewhere near the dash area (tach gauge). Beyond that I would go to the Megasquirt EFI style opti-coupler. I wish I could be more help, but that is all I can really think of that would cause the tach problem.

If you do connect the Crane box green wire to the tach. Make sure you connect it to the car white wire. That is the vehicle tach wire. It goes to the vehicle fuse block junction by the brake booster. It has nothing to do with the ECM.

HHHhhhmmmm, I just noticed that the pic doesn't have the tach output green wire? The pic I looked on the Crane site had it. I must have been looking at a different box. Is that picture accurate?

Some update info for people using the $58 code and Ford 42#/hr injectors. I am finally at the point were I really like the $58 code and the 42#/hr injectors. I had to adjust the VE tables a lot because the tables are very sensitive with the 42#/hr injectors. I am guessing it would be even harder with even larger injectors. The car idles at 800 RPM and the BPW are 1.1ms +/-.1ms at 42KPA to 47KPA with a 14.4 AFR on the WBO2. I had to reduce the VE adder table a bunch from 4400 RPM and up. I reduced the VE adder from 24 to 18 at 5000 RPM and up. This changed the WOT AFR from 10.0 to 11.2. I did all of the tuning in open loop and still have a lot more VE tuning to do, but it runs almost as good as it did with the $8D code. I can't say enough about the DIY-WBO2 and TunerPro v4.13. Together they make tuning so much easier.

With less WOT fuel, the spark blow out problem is going away. It revs to about 5800 RPM now without blowout at about 9PSI. The WOT spark is still the stock $58 BBZB values. At WOT high rpm the spark is 23* w/r/t TDC. It idles a lot better with the new spark plugs and is a lot more consistent (Autolite 24s at .030"). The plugs I took out were fouled from running it rich. I could see they were starting to clean up with the better VE table but still didn't look that good so I put in some new ones.

Am I understanding this correctly? It's alright to twin turbo a stock tpi 305?

The very most simple answer to your second question is "yes", but WTH does that have to do with this? You need to start researching hardcore.

junkcltr (BTW, does that mean junk collector?), That's sounding very good. I'm sure I'll need to ask you some things when I am able to tune mine again.
Now that you're at this point, what would you say the main cause is of most people having a hard time with these Ford 42's? I probably won't have a WB any time in the near future, so that might screw me over on the tuning side. I'll do the best I can with the stock NB voltage, though. Can you give me a rough comparison of the WB readings with the stock NB voltages?

How high do you want to rev it (without it having any issues)? Providing you don't want to go over 5800 and 9 psi, it sounds like you're pretty close to having it dialed in then. Any chance you're going to get numbers for it?

Im just wondering if the 305 can handle low boost well.

I swear i heard someone say that they had a boosted 305 in this thread..

There are multiple people on these boards with boosted 305 tpis yes.

Yes, it is junk collector. I started to have more fun throwing together parts that everyone considered junk........so the name fits.

The main problem I had was trying to tune it like I did with smaller injectors. That is, increasing the VE tables by 1 or 2 and expecting a .3 AFR change. With bigger injectors you can't do that. A .3 VE change makes a big difference in AFR when the BPW are small (idle & part throttle cruise). Idle is in the 1.2 ms range and part thottle gets close to that also.

As for the WBO2, I couldn't have gotten to the point I am now without it. Well, at least not will the amount of gas and number of spark plugs I used. I am very cheap when it comes to car stuff. I don't mind buying the best spray gun, hand tools, etc. I hate to buy the good aftermarket speed parts and waste money on gas though. I put about 50 gals of pump 93 octane and one set of plugs in it so far. If you figure the price of gas vs. the cost of a WBO2 then I think I am ahead of the game. I think I would have put 2x-3x the amount of gas though it without the WBO2. Not to mention the engine strain due to knock which I can't have because of the hyyperuetectic pistons, stock rods, and stock cast crank. Anyway, enough rambling about the WBO2. It simply was a must for my setup.

I will try to put together some NBO2 vs. WBO2 readings this weekend. The thing is that not all NBO2 read the same. So my WBO2 at 12.0 with a NBO2 at 0.xx mV will be different than some one elses NBO2 reading. All NBO2s will read the same at 14.7 AFR, but will vary a lot at anything other than that. If I do post readings don't take them as that is what your NBO2 will read.

In terms of the overall tune. I went from not even idling to a decent idle. Part throttle AFRs in the 11 range and WOT AFR that was in the 9-10 range with spark blow out. Overall, it is much better. It still has a long way to go though. It will take me all Summer to get it right. Although, the engine is coming out mid-Summer for a better turbo cam (thanks to 83 Crossfire TA) and new trans. I still haven't decided on the TH400 or 4L80E.

I rev it to 6000 RPM right now. I took it to 6200 RPM last week. It will rev clean to 6000 RPM with a stock small cap HEI and MSD2 coil. At 6200 RPM is starts to mis-fire. That is with an AFR of about 11.5 and 7.2 PSI of boost via the ALDL log. IATs are in the 150-160* F range (no IC). When it was too rich it would break up at about 5500 RPM.

I may get some numbers next week. One of the guys with a Ford Lightning has been asking to go. I don't think the times will be that great. I run 275x60x15 regular streets tires. The best launch I have with the ALDL data is taking of at 1600 RPM and rolling into it slowly. It just blows the tires of at 3000 RPM and I have to lift to get it to hook. I will post if the 1/4 mile times if they happen next week...........if it wasn't for this dang job thing I would have all kinds of 1/4 mile times. Depending on the time/MPH I may have to let off with the 4.10 gears.

any particular thread i should look for?
Im interested in boosting mine

What did I do?

You gave me your opinion on a turbo cam for the engine. After talking to Cammotion and Comp Cams about their recommendations I realized that I liked your pick for the cam better than their picks. The cam I want to drop in it is close to what is in it now, but it is more turbo oriented with a shorter exhaust lobe.

Thanks for the info, as usual.
I know various NB voltages won't correlate directly with WB readings, but I'm curious what the rough ballpark figures are. Something vague is better than nothing at all. Believe me, I wouldn't blame you in any way if my stuff blew up, hehe. I'll have a little bit of error room with the huge FMIC (and miles of alum piping) and the forged turbo pistons @ 9:1 (actually 8.97:1, but who's counting? ), but I won't be trying to push my luck, that's for sure.
I partly tune my Talon with the stock heated NB voltage, and it seems to like no less than .93-.94 on 93 octane with 21-22 psi in cool weather. By all accounts, that's pig rich, heh. I'm sure of that judging from other signs as well. It does work out though, because the results are repeatable (to a degree) within that same setup.

Now you have me starting to really want a WB for my Camaro, but the problem is that the funds are simply gone for extra's that won't directly help the setup get installed and running (97% of it is there already), as I'm going to be getting married and going to college full time soon. However, if I can justify it as a neccessary expense, I can spare a bit for it right now, though I haven't seen any that aren't lots of $$$. I suppose I'll start researching the subject more. The more I can save on $3.50/gal gas, the better.
How much did the WB have to do with you acquiring that smooth idle?

I hear 4L80E's are nice and a fourth gear would help out on gas a lot, but OTOH, in the name of cost and simplicity the typical TH400 would probably suffice just fine.
Even with the tall gears in those trannies, I'm thinking 4:10's are probably a good bit too much, as I'm sure you are aware. You have no traction, so feel especially sorry for guys like 89JYturbo who have TT TPI's and low profile 18's for the street. I'm not expecting to hook my cheapo 275/40/17's until 80mph seeing as how I already can't hook well in second with a nearly stock lower-compression L98.
I'll be looking forward to hearing numbers if you go, good luck either way.

DIY-WBO2 controller with Bosch NTK L1H1 O2 sensor
Single wire Bosch stock TPI NB sensor.
Both sensors in left side bank downpipe. NB is approx. 1.5 feet away from turbine. WBO2 is located approx. 6" after the engine oil filter. No exhaust leaks. WBO2 AFR recorded with $58 WB patch (DIY PROM board).

I can't say if the WBO2 is worth it for you. My opinion is school is worth more than any car stuff. In general but not always the case, school can help to get a better paying job and may allow you to buy all the WBO2s you want later on. I bought my DIY WBO2 back in the day when they were available and it was about $30 and the NTK L1H1 sensor came from Autozone for $170. I think Innovative has the LC-1 with LSU4 sensor for $200. They are the cheapest I know off. I don't care for the TechEdge stuff because the guy is a crook and stole the DIY WBO2 design and went commercial with it. There was a lot of controversy about it........but eventually he openly admitted he stole it in the DIY WBO2 email forum (I think I have that email saved somewhere). Do a calc. estimating how much fuel you will burn vs. the WBO2 cost. Remember, the WBO2 will save you more later on if you up the boost, change the cam, change the exhaust, etc.

The WBO2 was used a little to tune the idle, but it wasn't really necessary. I wouldn't buy it for tuning idle. It was used more for WOT and part throttle light load lean running.

I am dreading when the TH350 croaks because I will have to seriously think about what to do. The 4L80E has the benefit of OD and will force me to go with the 94-95 LT1 PCM (8051) which is SEFI. Something I have been wanting for years, but too lazy to research how to reliably convert an HEI for the trigger signal. No way will I buy one of those TCI trans. controller units and I don't want to do a 730/8051 piggy back setup. If the 8051 is in the car I won't be able to not let it control the engine too. With the SEFI the small BPW thing becomes a non-issue and idle would be much better due to cyl. squirt timing. OK, back to reality. The TH400 is cheaper and probably the same strength and would bolt right it. Tough decision. I have been leaning towards the 4L80E but need the time to figure out the HEI thing.

The 1/4 calcs show that it will proabably be in the 5800 - 6300 RPM range at the end of the run. It is highly likely I will have to lift at the end of the track a little. The suspension is stock Camaro with 90/10 fronts and 50/50 rear shocks. Someday I might throw some Comp. traction bars on it. They seem to work good on the other car. Nothing I plan on doing in a hurry. I have been trying to finish up the turbo truck project that I planned on having done last Christmas. Just too much stuff around here has been breaking lately and too much time wasted on $58 code commenting. Sounds like a little bit of whining on my part.

Those comparison numbers are right around where I would have thought they'd be. I know I can't use that as gospel by any means, but it gives me an idea. Thanks.
The O2 bungs are about 3" after the turbines on either side (the other being a perfect place for a WB). I wish they were durable as and lasted as long as the NB's, it would be a more attractive option. Paying for school isn't the problem as that'll be paid for in full by my GI Bill (+kicker), it's our food and rent that I'm worried about.

About the HEI thing, I noticed you have a small cap dizzy. Will a large cap dizzy fit? My friend's dad used to use LT1 ECU's for TPI swaps into old-skool Jag's, he converted (and will still do it) large cap dizzies to include a crank trigger wheel that works with it. If you can go that route, that would be a non-issue. I'm think he'd tell me/you how to do it, as you may not want to pay him to do one for you, but he'd probably do that too. I was thinking of doing that also as I like the newer MAF/SEFI systems better. I had planned on getting an HSR which won't fit with a large cap dizzy, but that may not happen for a long time now. If I get good at welding aluminum and porting too, I have a great idea for an inexpensive (~$200) dual-plenum intake that should flow a little better than a Superram, and it would work with the large cap dizzy as well. Anyway...


I have no doubt you're busy, I don't see how you get this stuff finished as fast as you do anyway. Doesn't sound like whining, just valid excuses, heh.
Of course you need to post about the results of that truck when you get it going.
Do you even own a thirdgen? lol. (It doesn't matter much, as most of this directly applies to thirdgens, I'm just curious).

BTW, I found out that the turbine wheel in the 300ZX T3 is definitely smaller than the stage III wheel, but by how much I don't know. What is the A/R on those compressor housings? Mine have the tiny .42 A/R housings, I guess BBSD didn't want to compromise anything there for fit. I think I can get the larger T3 compressor housings on with slight modification, though. If the 300ZX housings are bigger, I will find some of those for cheap since the compressor wheels are the same.
Now that you can run it up to 6000, can you tell if the turbines are becoming a restriction at all?

The O2 bung setup you have should work well. The NBO2 cools off in my setup during idle and goes silent. I run open loop so it doesn't matter, but if I do go back to closed loop then I will use a heated NBO2. I don't think I will go back to closed loop with the $58 code in stock form. It runs so much better in open loop and I can lean burn all I want (no cats, old car). I burns cleaner than it did from the factory back in the 70s.
Yeah, the durability is disadvantage. If my NTK sensors croaks I will probably go with the LC-1 and LSU4 if the Megasquirt PWC WBO2 module isn't available at the time. It should support the LSU4. The LSU4 sensor was $40 the last time I checked. Cheaper than a heated NBO2.

Only a small cap will fit with the LT1 intake. That big cap setup does sound interesting though. There is a guy that has been working on making trigger wheels for the small cap at the DIY PROM board. I kind of lost track of where he was at with it though.

The SEFI has everything going for it except for being able to handle a 2BAR MAP and boost code. The more controlled injector timing, bigger idle BPWs, TCC, OD, easy PCM re-flash........all good stuff. The big problem besides the HEI is the boost code. The stock 8051 uses two 64k byte chips and the BIN is scrambled if read via the ALDL link. I would have to pull the two chips, read them with a PROM programmer, disassembly them, figure out the PCB board traces, and then comment the code & add boost code. A butt load of work. A new ECM bench would need to be built for it.
I have a decent ECM bench setup for the 730/749 ECMs. A lot of time in commenting and understanding the $58 BBZB code. The 730/749 has all kinds of room to add new code to control a second fan, boost controllers, nitrous relays, read oil temp sensors, read another MAP sensor (3bar), driver controlled switches. Overall, I like that ECM. Eventually I want to cut some traces on the PCB so that I can do alternate bank fire with it. It would effectively double the injector BPWs and it has enough outputs to control a 4L80E trans. I would need to figure out how the 4L80E needed to be controlled, but it can be done.
The 730/749 is worth the time investment for coding it because I have a 400ci that I want to rebuild and install a Garrett 85mm compressor turbo on along with a 3 bar MAP (love the diesel boost sensors). It will require a nitrous shot to get it to spool decent. The 749 would be great because it could control the nitrous solenoids and shut off when boost starts to build.

I don't own one right now. I have had a few in the past few years. None of which were road worthly. I buy boned out ones and strip the engine, trans, wiring out of them. Thirdgen guys usually don't like to hear about bringing them to the junkyard after they are gutted. GM should have put the TPI in the pick-up trucks. They were the perfect engine for them. The only thirdgen I ever actually drove on the road was a v6 2.8 liter that I had to diagnose for a "bucking" problem (it was a bad MAF, the relay was good).
I tend to like the lines of the 2nd gen. Camaros.

Yes, the standard Garrett T3 exhaust wheel is much smaller than the Stage III. Take a look at Turbo Turbos and Turbochargers- For all your turbo needs. The Nissan compressor housings do not have a A/R stamped on them. They are not marked Garrett or Airesearch. They have a big Nissan logo on them. It is funny because I had one guy trying to figure out what size the turbos were by the comp. housing and it confused the heck out of him. They are Garrett though. The tag on the comp. backplate is Garrett along with the Garrett P/N. I did measure the wheels before and they came out to a 60 trim. I seem to remember the comp housing being larger than the SAAB Garrett T3 .42 A/R comp housing (45 trim), with .48 A/R T3 turbine housings that I put on the truck. I will take another look today and see how much the comp. housings differ.
If I remember correctly, BBS was sending Master Power turbos with their kits. Yours are Garrett?

I can't really tell if the T3 .63 A/R turbines are a restriction. The cam in it is more of a peaky mid-range cam so it falls of a lot at 6000 RPM. Between the cam, log manifolds, and turbines the VE does drop off a lot after 5600 RPM. I am guessing it is mostly due to the cam. I did find a pdf file at the Garrett website that has the equations for turbine sizing. I also found the Garrett GT series pdf file with turbine and compressor maps. I need to look through it and try to size up the T3 A/R with one of the GT A/R turbines to see how well it should flow theoretically.
When the engine comes out this Summer I am going to weld in an EGT sensor bung and NPT bung for installing a pressure gauge (3bar MAP maybe) to see how high the exhaust pressure is before the turbos. I didn't know enough to put this stuff on the manifolds last year when I built them. I could tap into the AIR tube bungs, but I want to put the fittings right at the T3 flange boxes/collectors.

I measured the Nissan compressor housings and the SAAB T3 45 trim compressor housings. Both housings have the same external physical dimensions. I did not measure the comp. A/R because I would have to remove the compressor pipes on the Camaro. Since the outer dimensions are the same, I am guessing the A/R is the same.

The Nissan inducer wheel diameter is about 46mm (from memory, not sure). (60 trim)
The SAAB inducer wheel diameter is about 40mm. (45 trim)

If you want to read about compressor A/R and wheel effects, check out:

TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech101

TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech102

TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech103

Too bad the large cap won't fit on the LT1, same as the HSR. I guess there are other issues that you have mentioned too. I didn't think about boost code with the other, doh.
You wrote "Eventually I want to cut some traces on the PCB so that I can do alternate bank fire with it."
...I would pay for something like that.

It doesn't sound like you're killing upper RPM's with the turbines, at least not enough to hurt much. That's good news to hear, as mine are slightly bigger and I only plan on running to 5500 with less VE up there than you have. I was a bit worried that they may be too small. I suppose I could ask Kenton about that as well, being that he went from tiny .48 turbines to .63 ar / stg III turbines on his stock L98. I know he was saying the small ones seemed to choke off the upper RPM's, but I haven't heard that aspect of it with his new turbos. (Are you reading this dude? )

Pre-turbo exhaust pressure will be a good thing to know.

Edgardo used to sell Garrett turbos with his kits, somewhere along the line he switched to Master Power. I bought mine almost 2 years ago (DOH!) when he was still offering Garretts (thank goodness).
Here's mine (That tiny IC made way for something much larger. )...



If the Nissan comp housings aren't bigger, obviously I won't mess with them. Even if somehow they have a larger A/R, it doesn't sound like it's much at all, but I doubt they do if the external dimensions are the same.
I have read the Turbo Tech articles, good info. I recommend them to newbies who ask too many questions.

If I ever get around to it I would post how to do it.

This is the current VE adder table I am using. You can see how quickly it rolls off. It is for educational purposes only.

I hear the MPs are good units. I always like the name Garrett better though. They should have stuck with Airesearch....that was even better sounding. If you don't use that IC, make sure you cover the endtanks on it before the mice move in if you put it in storage some place. That would be a pain to clean out.

Here is some good info. It uses up almost the entire Greek alphabet with the equations. Look beyond all the equations and read the text. It has some interesting stuff about water cooling.

http://www.ifs.uni-hannover.de/Publi...2004_12_14.pdf

you guys using stock ecms? or did you have to rewire one from a factory boosted car?

Stock 1bar 90-92 speed density 730 ecm, rewired like the 2bar 749 ecm cyclone and a matching cyclone style bin on the eprom. Do a search you'll turn up plenty of reading.

search brings up too much nothing.

I cant just tune the factory 730?

IM not sure i understand, the connector is rewired to plug into a cyclone ecm?
cyclone ecms are NOT common

Try these,

http://www.thirdgen.org/1990conversion
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...uide-book.html (The Prom Tuning Guide Book and FAQ: Common Questions and Answers)
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...ost-749-a.html (730 almost = 749?)


Keep your 730 ecm, rewire it like a cyclone, use the same connectors, make a chip with the $58 style cyclone code. The 730 and 749 are almost identical twins, almost.

Dredging up some older stuff in the thread as well as some of the newer stuff:

Wow… I stared at that for a little bit trying to decide why it wasn’t registering at all, especially since I have 2 small cap cars right now and have had 3…

One of the back wires is actually the coil to cap wire… and then the whole pink/black or black/pink and black 2 wire harness is different then all the rest, everything that I’ve ever had had just pink and white for that harness.

Also the wiring diagrams of both my ’92 LO5 truck and my formula have the white inst cluster/tach wire going to both the body harness and eventually to the instrument harness and also splitting off to a separate tach terminal…

That’s sort of like what their answer was, but not that coherent. I’m not positive that I’m following, but both the crane box and my 6al actually came with a diode in the packaging with them, I’m wondering… I seem to remember that it was there in for special cases that I can’t remember, I’ll have to dig up one of the sets of instructions. I’m assuming that you’re saying across the small black (sometimes brown) and orange coming out of the ignition box? Shouldn’t that take a capacitor and a diode?

Brown wire… I’m stumped, what color is it on the wiring diagram that PhLaXuS posted? Any thoughts on the diode idea?

That’s what I was thinking of trying well before messing with their tach adaptor, popping the white wire out of the A1 coil plug and connecting it to the green wire coming out of the crain box (which is usually unused) and see if it works better with the crane box driving the tach circuit with it’s own driver. Since I’ve never seen anything do this besides the plug in accel harness I’ve debated if there is some reason why…

Yea, I’m anal about proper grounds so that shouldn’t be an issue… I think that there is actually an engine to firewall ground strap back there which is also the one that I used to use for the accel box since it’s ground was in it’s harness with the coil connections.

Have you gone to a crane box yet?

The drawing is crane’s drawing, they don’t connect the green wire in most cases, MSD doesn’t either. It’s not even pinned in the harness but it shouldn’t be a problem to add.

Heh, sounds good to me… I trust my cam advice much more then I trust comp’s or cammotion’s (and for what it’s worth I do recommend cams for customer’s cars regularly, so it’s not like I’ve picked a cam here and there), especially after discussing it with more then one person at comp and realizing how truly clueless/shot in the dark their recommendations are (as in no real hard reason why they pick one timing over another but they all gave me numbers that I knew wouldn’t work)

For some reason I was more expecting it to be based on some offhand coment that I made about something semi related…

It’s not even a fair question… WBO2’s that output narrow band usually output based on a programmable scale, like the LM1 is programmed with a linear, logarithmic and then a purely user defined NB output. It’s not a factor of some designer being lazy or something either, l the liniar scale works nicely with the old school a/f meters, making them something useful, and past that it’s up to the vehicle. For example, the GN guys usually shoot for something in the 750mv range when tuning using their O2 readings (which is usually safe for those cars, way rich for most NA cars), the LT1 f-body crowd considers around 890mv somewhere around where you’ll make best power, sort of lean and around 950 good (and factory WOT is usually higher then that). It’s not that the GN’s like to run leaner, it’s that a combination of the location of the O2 sensor location, possibly the actual sensor, tuning, the way the ecm is logging it… all add up to different values.

Well, that’s the reason that my car happens to be down right now… I’m willing to run it with the messed up axle (I actually raced it that way), but the 700 puked and I’m working on a 4L80e swap, I just haven’t had much time to do actual work.

What do you have against the TCI TCU? FWIW, GM doesn’t even bother with their own stuff for swaps… they sell the TCI unit with a GMPP sticker on it in their GMPP catalog. In my case I’m using the TCI box and a custom PI, 3 disk TCC clutch converter, hopefully I’ll have that, the 9” (with some custom brackets) and a custom driveshaft done by the middle/end of june and then get the rest of the current project unstalled (well after fixing the truck and some other BS). I need to have enough room to take 2 projects apart at the same time and work on them, right now I’m not even sure that I have enough room to take one apart and still work on it.

An LT1 opti sensor and gate will fit under a small cap dizzy, that would let you run a ’94-95 LT1 PCM, but I’m not sure that that solves your problem. Supposedly the 4L80 and 4L80 uses completely different code and I don’t think that the LT1 PCM’s can play nice with ah 4L80, I’m pretty sure that you have to go with a truck PCM to get some code that will play nice there.

They’re all tiny, I’d be surprised if they were big enough also.

The diode that was supplied with the ignition box is not intended to be used in this way. It is intended for the alternator. In some cars there is enough current flow through the alternator light to allow the car to run after the key is turned off. The diode is used to stop the current flow so the vehicle will shut off properly.
In terms of your application, think of it like the reverse diode across a relay coil terminal. When a relay is turned off, a large voltage develops across the coil and the diode allows it to be clamped to battery voltage. The problem with the reverse diode is that it "slows down" the turning off of the relay coil because the diode has to discharge through the coil resistance. A zener diode it better because it allows a direct short to ground when activated and discharges very quickly. This is typically how fuel injector circuits are.
Now, apply that to you HEI to crane box problem. Think of the HEI as firing a coil (crane box) and when the HEI turns off the coil a larger voltage is created. A reverse diode across the wire to the crane box is what he original poster was talking about. Here is the catch............you need to know how much enery needs to be dissipated in the diode. EFI fuel injector circuits typically use 5 Watt diodes. That is firing 8 saturated injectors in double batch fire mode. The HEI is firing the crane box at 4x the rate. Average power applies and remember that it will slow down the signal to the crane box. That diode that came with the box is probably a 1 Watt diode (if that).

Use that diagram that was posted, the "brown wire" is the black wire connecting HEI terminal B to coil terminal A2. That is the wire that you put the reverse diode on (look at a picture of a relay on how to connect it). Think of the crane box as the coil in the relay and the HEI as the power feed to the coil. Remember, this WILL affect the turn off time of the HEI signal to the crane box. It all depends on the resistance of the crane box. Also, if you ever remove the crane box and tie directly to a real ignition coil with the diode on there you will blow the diode up.
You can try it, but if it was my setup I wouldn't do it.

The first thing I would try is using the green wire to feed the tach. Connect it just as you said.

Yes, good grounds are a must. Notice in the diagram that was posted that the HEI module either feed battery voltage to the crane box or grounds it. So the HEI module needs a good ground path to the battery.
No, I didn't buy the crane box yet. The engine mis-fire problem cleared up as I removed fuel at higher RPMs. I don't have a real need for it right now. I will buy and install one when the engine comes out. To do it right, I need to make brackets and stuff for it and it will be easier when the engine is out.

Comp Cams basically said anyone of their "turbo cams" would work good with my "turbo engine". The guy had no clue.

I posted WBO2 AFR readings vs. NBO2 voltages. The WBO2 AFR is simply AFR, all of the non-linearities have been accounted for. Assuming, my tables and WBO2 is not bad then the WBO2 AFR vs. NBO2 are correct for my application. I can't say what other cars like for WBO2 AFRs, but mine is running OK at around 11.5 AFR. I want to try it all the track before leaning it out anymore. If it would only stop raining at all the wrong times.

I have been keeping an eye out for 4L80E and TH400 transmissions. I will probably end up going with what ever I get a better deal on. The over drive would be very nice to have. The TCC would be great. I think the junkyards wanted in the $500 - $1000 range for a 4L80E. Add another $800 for a torque converter and then $xxx for a TCI controller and $xxx for a driveshaft.
It could go either way. I ordered a TH350 rebuild video just in case the TH350 dies and I don't have a stronger trans. to install. I have a TH350 sitting here that needs a rebuild so I was thinking of doing that one just in case. Funny, my first trans. rebuild would go into a turbo car.

I have nothing against the TCI unit. I can't justify spending that much money on something that does so little. I hate to spend a lot on something that I could ?probably? figure out myself. How much does a TCI TCU actually go for these days. I seem to remember them being around $500. If I do go the TH400 or 4L80E I would use a PI converter (3 disk if 4L80E).
I hear you about the garage space. The truck I took apart last December is still sitting in the way. I should finish it but I got caught up in $58 BIN coding. I came across a 3-bar patch last week at DIY PROM and tested it out to find that it is up to 30% lean for high boost, high RPM. So, I wrote my own 3-bar patch and have been testing it. I want to get the MonteCarSlow NVSRAM module in the Camaro so I have been making a BIN for that too. That stuff takes a lot of time. The only good thing is that once it is done.....it is done. Not like mechanical stuff that can break later on.

I talked to a trans. guy about that before and he said the control was different for the two transmissions. I will probably always just stick with the 730/749 ECM. I have a fair amount of time in coding and understanding the $8D and $58 bin so I don't want to have to start over with a 8051 bin that is 4x-8x the size. SEFI is not that important to me. It would also need a boost code re-write anyway and a 4L80E re-write. I'd rather try to use the $58 or $8D to control the 4L80E or go with the TH400.

UPDATE:

I picked up some used 3.08 10-bolt gears to replace the 4:10s that required letting off the throttle due to over-rev at the big end of the track. I got a kit from Ratech with a pinion spacer & shims, new Timken bearings, etc.

The car is still at 6-7 PSI of boost and running fine with the cast crank, hyperuetectic pistons, GM rods, etc. Once the gears are in and all is re-tuned, I think I will try 9 PSI with it. That would bring it up just shy of 500 FWHP.

I did end up getting a 4L80E that will probably go in this winter along with the 1995 truck '427 ECM for controlling the engine and trans.

Wow, junkcltr, this is the first time I have seen your setup - NICE! I'm curios to see how you like the new gears, seems like everybody who goes with higher gears, say the car is faster because of more load. I know how you feel about wanting to turbo everything after doing one, but my wife won't let me turbo any more of our vehicles, lol (the BMW is the prime target- 1986 e30 I6 10:1 compression) she says it's fast enough.

I am interested in the possability of burning PROM's and am wondering if it's maybe better in my situation to do that instead of MS, but have time to think about it now that the motor is comming out for an upgrade.

BTW: I always thought your username was short for junk clutter, not collector

I finished the used 3.08 gear install today. I did 3 ten mile normal driving runs with 30 minute cool time between drives. That was to break in the new carrier and pinion Timken bearings from Autozone off all places. The shim kit & pinion spacer came from Ratech. Ratech's stuff is OK. The shims all needed to be surface sanded with some 320 grit to remove the burrs. They also started sending a stronger pinion nut with their kits.

I torqued the pinion nut to 135 ft-lbs (they recommend 125 ft-lbs). It took a while to get the pinion spacer shims right for the pinion in-lb torque. I bought an extra "head" pinion bearing and used some 80 grit sanding rolls to open up the ID so that it just barely slides on/off the pinion for setting the pinion shim (grear depth). I set the pinion about .003" deeper than the original shims for more gear mesh. The backlash was set at .0065"-.0070" depending where it was measured (mostly .007"). I set the carrier preload using the width of the original shims. The gears are quiet and the bearings temps are normal after driving it. They work great. Back road cruise RPM is around 1500 rpm. Highway is up around 2800 RPM. TH-350 trans. in it. It pulls hard without blowing off the tires like it did with the 4.10s.

The 3.08 are much better than the 4.10s. It hooks up better, but the problem now is to tune doing 1st - 2nd gear shifts puts me up in the 60mph mark. A ticket waiting to happen.

The MS-I or MS-II is much, much easier to learn on. It is cheaper than buying the PROM stuff for GM ECMs. I learned on GM ECMs back when the MS was just hitting the scene. I like the GMs for the amount of I/O and limp-home mode features. They are tough to work with (emissions stuff & many tables). I spent almost all last Summer just turning the 1992 Camaro 350ci MAP code to handle a 2-Bar boost sensor. Lots of hours into it. Using a MS-II you could be running in days.

I have a few vehicles with GM ECMs so the cost of PROM burning equip. is sprend out among them. To buy four MS-II units for them was/is not cost effective. For you the MS-I or MS-II is worth it.

Yeah, it is short for junk collector. I wanted to plain "Junk" but it was already taken. Sometime in the near future I will update the 1980's turbo 4x4 truck thread with some pics. It is a stock 305ci TPI with 130K miles on it that came from the junkyard. I put on about 45K miles in the truck of the 130K miles it now has. I installed two used Garrett T3 turbos, a 24"x12"x4.25" IC, water/alky injection, 1992 Camaro 730 ECM, all kinds of sensors to monitor things. The turbo to IC has 2.5" pipes. The IC to TB has a 3" pipe. The downpipes are 2.5". All that was done so an upgrade to a 350ci would be a drop in deal. Just picked up a 1970-something 10-bolt posi for it (clutch disks). That rigs runs 3.08s in both differentials. Another ride I saved from going to the junkyard.

The car went out for some tuning tonight. I put 2 turns on the wastegate actuator rods before the drive. Peak boost is now 7 PSI. That is up from the low 6 PSI it was at. IAT temps are a solid 150* F now without an IC or water injection. The ECM tune is still dead on because I don't run a lot of timing. AFRs are perfect. I will probably throw a couple of degrees of advance at it. The gears are still quiet. The only problem is doing WOT runs. The MPH for doing first to second shifts is way too fast. It needs some track time to see how much more I can get out of it in terms of AFR and timing.

How did the higher gears affect spool time?

It seems to spool about 200-300 RPM sooner. It is hard to tell with the loose converter. I use ALDL datalogs to check what is actually going on. If you were to look at the tach and boost gauge one would think it starts building boost at 2000 RPM. It actually comes in around 2500-3000 RPM where the torque converter starts to couple.

I put some turns on the wastegate actuator rods bringing the boost up from 6.5 PSI to 7.6 PSI. I then added in 2* of spark under boost. It is at 27.5* of advance at 7.6PSI and the AFR is 10.8 (10% Ethanol gas) on the DIY-WBO2. IAT is at about 160* F right now. There is no engine knock. I am pulling a little fuel from it tomorrow. Over the weekend I hope to bring it up to 8 - 9 PSI if all seems good.

I did rattle it once yesterday. It was low on fuel and I did a rolling throttle WOT run. It started to pull and then rattled a tiny bit and layed down due to no fuel. Ooopps, don't do that.

Eventually, I would like to turn the boost up to 12 PSI but I think I will have to water/alky inject it with the 93 octane gas I use. I am going to try 87 octane at some point also. The original plan was to build something that runs on 87 octane.

I hit the rev limiter on mine and the detonation did in the bearing, actually it was one big boom (sounded like a cannon) and then the rod was knocking. This was after the first mishap...

Anywho, glad to see some more progress. I'm interested in some hard numbers if you have a chance to test it.

That sucks. I wish I would have talked about this with you before it happened.

I have the rev limiter set in my chip to 10,000 RPM because GM does a fuel-cut. The worst thing you can have for boost. When I lost fuel it barely knocked and fell on its face so I let off. I want to add a random spark rev-limit to the GM code I run eventually. I rev limit right now by dumping WAY TOO much fuel at too high RPM. It blows out the spark and the car noses over.

The 4.10 gears were very easy to over-rev. The 3.08 gears are much easier to drive/shift/rev with.

EDIT: I use the datalog values to run the numbers to estimate HP. The engine is at about .55 - .58 BSFC under boost. I use the ALDL datalog RPM, boost, IAT, compressor efficiency, and the engine VE table (which is very close) in a engine boost HP calculator. It puts the FWHP at around 430 - 460HP. The predicted engine injector duty cycles match the ALDL actual duty cycles by 2%. Overall, it is probably around 440 FWHP. I will post when I take it to the track. I am guessing it will be 12.5 to 13.0 ET in the 1/4 mile. The street Cooper rear tires are about 5 years old and I can't go WOT until about 30 MPH or higher or they spin and won't hook.

It wouldn't have helped, I currently have no way of tuning (unless I can just disable the rev limiter by cutting a wire etc) since I sold the MS to pay for a 3.4 to take advantage of the DIS feature installed in the block, so I can use a 3500 top end (the ports cover the dizzy hole).

I edited my post above with some guesstimated HP figures. After every tuning run I go through the ALDL and do calcs. Yeah, I spend an hour going through a couple of 10 second boost runs to hone in on the tune.

What year ECM and V6 bin would you use with the DIS engine? I have an extra Xtronics PPI (pocket programmer) kicking around but it is only good for the Atmel AT29C256 chips that went obsolete. You can still get them for about $12 a piece. I just ordered a Willem programmer for about $50 that will do the SST 27SF512 chips that will go in most ECMs. I will let you know how it works out. The 27SF512 are about $2 a piece and are reprogrammable.

Is the bin/ECM a MAF setup or a MAP setup? I think the stock GM TPI MAF is good for up to 350HP. I don't remember exactly. I could look into it some more. I wonder if there is a HAC and a TunerPro XDF available for the BIN you would use. How much HP are you shooting for?

My concentration has been on collecting parts for the new setup and haven't decided on a tuning system, but I currently have a 7730 MAP ECM. However, from what I have read, the MAP based system is more difficult to tune (unless it's MS) and just haven't decided on where I am going with the ECM yet.

The 7730 is the ECM that the person who inspired me to do the hybrid build, Six Shooter (aka The Raven) modified it to work with DIS. A hybrid is when you use a iron head motor (usually RWD) and put the FWD aluminum heads on it, along with the FWD pistons to compensate for the small chambers.

Those doller amounts you are giving for the programming equipment is right up my alley at the moment.

As far as HP, I am unsure, but I know 400 should be obtainable, especially with the new heads.

Here is a comparison of iron and FWD heads, these are the heads I was going to origionally use, but found a good deal on a 3500 upper end that just got a deposit put on it...

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...re-3400-a.html (Finally got the entire 3400 upper)

The V6 with DIS and turbo seems like a good fit using the 730 ECM. Here is a link for DIS, turbo, V6, 730 ECM diagrams:

ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...7730/31v-1.jpg (check out the other pages too)

What vehicle is the Vin V? Pontiac? I keep forgetting that GM put turbos on the V6s back in the early 1990s. Keep in mind that a new 2-Bar MAP sensor from GM is about $60 or more.

You already have the 7730 ECM in the car right now, correct?

EDIT: Page 4 of the link above shows that the wiring is for a 7727 ECM. Therefore, the 7730 ECM can be used in place of that ECM and only needs some re-wiring at the ECM connector. Yes, the wiring diagram is for the 89-90 Pontiac Turbo 3.1 V6 with DIS. The bin mask is the $8F code. I seem to remember some people at the DIY-PROM already using this code. I will look for an XDF file for TunerPro (freeware tuning software).

EDIT AGAIN: There is an XDF file for TunerPro and an ALDL datalogging ADS file. This means you would simply have to re-wire your ECM connector for the $8F code (maybe only a couple of pins, maybe all of them). Then you need an adapter board (ryan.h here at TGO for $15), A willem programmer for $55 shipped, A couple of 27SF512 chips and a ZIP socket for $20 shipped, A GM 2-bar MAP sensor for $60-$100 from GMpartsdirect.com or another place like that. Overall, 15+55+20+60 = $150

Then you need an ALDL cable for logging which is about $50.

Total now is $150+$50 = $200

The MS-I is looking good at this point unless you already have the ALDL cable and/or a GM 2-bar MAP sensor or can find one used.

The MS2 (needed to use a stepper IAC) is $250 or so for a unbuilt kit.

DIYAutoTune has a "MAPDaddy" 4bar MAP for $65 (with barometric corection) and the GM 3Bar for $64.

Yes as of now, I am lacking all of datalogging capabilities (except LC1).

The ECM you are talking about (Pontiac 3.1T)...
Are you basically saying that if I do some slight re-wiring and get a 3.1 turbo memcal, my ECM will run DIS as it is?
----------
EDIT: that page was completly illegable for me, even when magnified 200x on the new explorer browser.

For either setup you need:
Laptop computer that can run the MS software or the TunerPro/ScannerPro software
Knock sensor for your bore size

For the GM 7730 ECM setup you need:
7730 ECM
V6 MEMCAL for your engine bore size (knock sensor ckt) you probably have this
MEMCAL adapter (ryan.h preferred or Moates non-preferred)
ALDL cable (make one for $15 or buy from AKMcable.com or others)
2-Bar GM Map sensor (I am guessing the Pontiac 3.1T uses only 2 Bar)
---
Wire re-pinning list for converting from 7727 ECM to 7730 ECM (I would search here but the search is broke).
DIS module for V6

For the MS setup you need:
I think you already know what you need


In the V8 world people have converted from the 7727 ECM to the 7730 ECM and vice versa. The internals of those two ECMs are similiar. One is simply an underhood version (corvette, pontiac) and the 7730 is the underdash version (Firebird, Camaro, others). The MEMCAL determines the connector pin-out at the ECM and how things are controlled. Therefore you will need to run the $8F code in the V6 MEMCAL and wire the 7730 as if it was a 7727 ECM.
Overall, it looks to me that you could run the GM 2-bar MAP sensor, 7730 ECM with a connector re-pin, and a V6 MEMCAL with your bore size. You could even run the GM 3-bar but it would require a code change which others may have already done and released publicly (DIY PROM board, $8F search later on).
Yes, it looks like a re-pin and use the GM DIS. I will look into it because I am curious too. The V6 DIS is a great setup that I wish GM put on the V8s.

Those pages are extremely difficult to read. I have looked at enough of them so I already kind of know how things look and connect. I will take a look around. I might have something more readable.

Oh yeah, 3 or 4 bar is A LOT of boost/power.


EDIT:
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...730-boost.html ($8F on 730 for boost?)
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...-58-749-a.html (730 with $8For $58 or 749 $58 for boost?)
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...t-now-ill.html (Oh great... now I'll REALLY lose traction!!)

I used the TGO google search using "$8F 730". It gave more threads with good info. I will take a look at what it takes to do the ECM connector pin swap.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...wing-near.html (Turbo Kits Drawing Near - Want some Opinions)
Read what RBob says in his posts. He is one of the smartest people for DIY PROM / ECM around here.

Oh yeah, the Camaro is up to 8 PSI of boost with 28* timing advance with 93 octane. IATs are at 160* F, AFR is 10.5 on the DIY-WBO2 (10% Ethanol). No engine knock. I am going to up it to 9 PSI tomorrow and leaning it out some more. Ha ha, the converter in this TH350 isn't going to last.

Yes, the ECM is for the Pontiac 3.1T. Yes, some re-wiring needs to be done. I looked up the bore size on the 3.1 liter and the 3.5 liter. Basically an increase of .160". More than likely the MEMCAL knock circuit piece would be fine. You could use ANY 3.1 liter MEMCAL because the the chip would be reprogrammed to a 3.1T Pontiac $8F bin (the code stuff). That is what gives the ECM its pinout behavior.
The MEMCAL chip gives the ECM the pinout behaviour. A lot of people don't realize that. I will look at the 3.1T Pontiac wiring diagram and compare it to the 1990 V6 Camaro tomorrow.

I got more than I bargained for today. I put 3 turns on the wastegate rods to go from 8 PSI to 9 PSI. It ended up at 10 PSI at 5200 RPM and went up to 11 PSI at 5600 RPM. Ambient temp. was 85* F, IAT was at 198* F, Timing was at 20* BTDC, AFR was 10.8-11.0 (my target is 11 AFR for 10% Ethanol and boost). That run logged 1.5* of timing retard due to knock around 4800 RPM. The ECM ramped timing back in and there was no knock.

A later run with ambient at 70* F was exactly the same but the engine IAT was at 190* F. Overall, it sits at about 450 - 475 FWHP. Not much peak HP gain due to IAT temps being high. I am going to turn down the boost and put a water/alky setup on it. With the water/alky I should be able to go to 12 PSI and put in some decent timing with 93 octane E10 gas. The injection should lower the IATs and bring it up to about 500 FWHP.

The engine seems fine but the torque converter shutters if you shift it below 5200 RPM with the engine under boost conditions.

Woot, looks like 1bar is comming up soon.

I haven't a chance to sit down and read the links you sent me, I have been working almost double time to make up for the wife's missed work.

I have to thank you for the time you have spent with me thus far, though.

And I have checked out some of RBob's posts in the past, and I will say that he is extremely educated in the world of "electrons" as it says under his username, lol.

I actually went the other way with it today. I turned it down to around 9 PSI until I get the water/alky kit on it. I would like to keep it at 12 PSI with the injection setup if it works out.

You are welcome. I am learning a little bit about the V6s along the way so that is a good thing. Yes, RBob is very smart with the electronics stuff. Sometimes we don't agree exactly on some things, but I learn a great amount of stuff from him.

Do you have a timing cover setup for your V6 that mounts the crank trigger sensor required for DIS? That is usually what stops the V8s people from installing DIS on their engines.

Is it because you want to limit the power going to other stock components?

I'm also new to V6's, I always went with a V8 swap in the past. It kind of grew on me after discovering some cool stuff about the 60* engine. It has even fire and in combination with the 60* angle, it likes to rev and it does so smoothly. Putting parts on/in an engine kind of came natural to me when I was young, it's just a metter of learning what parts can go on what.

The gen1 2.8/3.1 did not have DIS and to make a hybrid out of one, it has to be fabricated. The 3.4 had DIS from the factory (and an SFI lobe on the cam), and has a reluctor wheel located in the middle of the crank. The 3.4 is kind of a black sheep having iron heads, SFI and DIS, and is perhaps the OBD1.5 was invented. Here is a crank from a gen2 FWD 3.1 (gen 2 had the aluminum heads and DIS)...

EDIT: The Gen1 block did not hve a mounting location for the sensor (with the exception of the 3.4). One might be able to be welded in, but as Six_Shooter (The Raven) has said, it's not really worth trying to learn to weld a block for the first time and doing something like this. He made an external trigger to go behind the balancer and then shimed out the rest of the accesories.