junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I finally finished up fabricating stuff for the 70 camaro. After I get the cam broken in then the 749 ECM and bigger injectors go in. With twin T3 60 trims it starts to boost at about 2000rpm. I did one run slightly heavy on the throttle the boost shot up to 10 psi which is way too much for what I want right now. A fair amount of tuning still needs to be done.
Here is a picture that could be useful to anyone that wants to turbo a second gen. car.

89JYturbo

Looks good. Should be very responsive (and powerful) with those T3's. DO you plan to drag race it?

Angelis83LT

looks very nice.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. The track is closed for the season so I have to wait until next spring for it to open back up. I was hoping to catch the last night of racing but just ran out of time. I guess it gives me time to tune it. I ran it once last year trying to tune the 730 MAP ECM.

It ran a best of 14.0 secs @ 98mph the quarter mile N/A earlier this year. Yeah, kind of slow....so the usually excuses apply.....bad driver, poor traction, bad gas, bad tires, etc. No really, the best it could probably do was 13.8 secs. So the 14.0 was fine by me.
This spring I ported the heads using Vizard's book as a guide. The are just smog 76cc 993 heads. One of the best of the junk heads. I like them for this app. because the compression comes out to 8.6:1 with a .055" quench using .028" head gaskets. The heads were $350 to have rebuilt so it fit the budget.

I put the Ford 42#/hr injectors in today and tried it out. I run stock fuel pressure. It started to detonate about 3500rpm with 30 degrees timing and 5psi of boost. I still have the 730 MAP ECM in it with the N/A bin I made. All I did to change it for the turbo setup was to set the upper VE table from 2600 rpm up at 98 fuel VE for map values of 90 and 100. THE BIG problem is that I am not wacking the throttle to WOT, so the 730 thinks it should maintain 14.7:1 and leans out because it is still in closed loop.

Overall, the 730 $8D code is useless in boosted apps as far as I can see unless you run open loop all of the time. A FMU would not help because it will give it more fuel, but the 730 ECM will try to make the pulsewidths smaller. Anyway, the 749 $58 code goes in tomorrow.

It seems to have more power before it detonates. At about 30mph I hit the throttle to WOT, it downshifted and broke the tires loose. It wouldn't do that with the N/A. So far I like it.
This is my first boosted car. It is a good toy to play with.
I haven't been able to see where the .63 A/R T3 housings run out of wind yet because of the detonation. The max. I revved it to is about 5000rpm. I used to rev it to 6000rpm with the N/A setup.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

One other thing. Thanks to all the members for the great info on this board. I probably would not have tried the turbo setup without having the info I got from this board.

Special thanks to all the great stuff 89JYturbo and 83 Crossfire TA put out there.

J

Angelis83LT

Yea I am doing a similar setup on the 3rd gen 83 at some point. have almost all the aprts for it.. Although I am going with a blow through carb rather than injection...

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

Looks good,, wish my twin turbo project looked that good (i.e. put together ). I have most of my parts now, turbo's, headers, exhaust, bigger injectors, etc.. But no time to put it together (60+ hours at work). Here lately I've been trying to learn the $58 code for when i get it all put together. Could you or one of the members point me towards a known good bin, xdf file and ads file to start from, for my TunerproRt. I've found some but dont know which one to start with or to trust for my wbo2 input to datalog. How do like your lt1 manifold, I'm going that route also. Thanks, sorry for the long rant.

Mike-91 Formula 350

Looks good.So I guess those housings are water cooled also?

355gta

That looks great. That is exactly how mine will look in my GTA. Can you let me in on your setup if it is not a secret. Such as cam, headers, heads, and what did you pull your turbos from. Thanks for all the info you can give me. I will keep you informed of mine. Also, are you using total seal rings. Thanks again.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

midniteplowboyy,
It is a lot of work but worth it in the end. I just installed the $58 code in the 730 ECM today and it runs bad. It ran way better with the $8D code. But the $58 code runs way better at WOT....no more detonation. That is code. The xdf file I used gave a bad checksum and threw the SES and cool fan on. I tried the rr58_v14.ecu file with TunerPro 4.0 and it seemed to work fine. I have a lot of $58 idling part throttle bugs to straightened out now. I tried TP4.0 with a 92-93Typhoon.ads file I found but not of the ALDL data values seemed correct. I never use TP4.0 so it is probably something I was doing wrong. I will post more $58 stuff as I get it figured out.


Mike-91 Formula 350,
Yes, both are water cooled.


355gta,
The engine was in the car when I bought it. It had a big cam, Trickflow heads, and a bunch of other stuff. The guy said it ran 13.1 secs in the quarter. I wanted a daily driver and didn't like the cam. I wanted to run it on 87 octane, but the compression was close to 10:1.
I pulled those parts off. With the setup below without turbos and using 1 5/8" headers it ran a best of 14.0 @98 earlier this year.

It all fits under a stock hood. It took a lot of measuring and adjusting to make that happen. I wish the turbos were more quiet. The CBV (i.e. BOV) returns a lot of air to the 3.5" intake pipe and K&N that is kind of loud. It happens right before it starts to boost. I may try to figure out something to quiet it down. The CBV leak air until boost is seen in the intake. So the air leak is kind of loud, but no louder than the turbos under boost. The factory Nissan wastegates are holding the boost to about 7psi right now under a third gear steady pull. If cruising at less than about 45mph and I do WOT the the trans. will downshift to second gear and it will light the tires and build about 10 psi of boost. It is fun but is going to blow up the engine, trans, or rear end in a hurry. I need to figure out the $58 code wastegate controller stuff this winter. I really want to have the ECM control the wastegates/boost.
The setup took quite while to build (all summer), but is worth it after you see how much power you gain. I have about $1800 into the turbo setup. Doing the trunk mount battery added about $250 to that. I went with 0/3 cable, Moroso Super Duty battery switch......all expensive stuff. I just had to have the best fresh air setup going because of no intercooler. Maybe an intercooler next year if the funds and time are available.


Hope that helps.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

hey junkcltr nice work i was wondering what turbo headers did you use?

PhLaXuS

Looks great! I'd recommend an intercooler because it'll be more safe and/or have more power, depending on the setup. Try to post an audio clip, if you don't mind.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Both sides manifolds are 1986 Chevy Camaro driver's side.
The T3 flanges are 1/2" mild steel that I made. The turbo boxes are 5/16" steel that I made. I welded the mild steel with a mig welder. I welded the boxes to the manifolds with an arc welder and nickel rod (see desrciption above).
The manifolds are ported to match the ported heads. I ground off the EGR bung bumps inside the manifolds. The T3 flanges are port matched exactly to the .63 A/R Turbine inlet.

The close up pics below are before the final T3 flange clean-up port work. Both the manifold to head surface andT T3 flanges were hand filed and sand for a true surface (less than .003" irregularity). Nothing leaks. The tabs on the manifold allow for brackets to be bolted to the exhaust studs for added strength. The downpipes have bolt on brackets to the rear exhaust studs and heads so they can't move. I did not use S/S flex pipe on the downpipes. They are held very solid from moving. The brackets were built to hold them from having both side-to-side and front-to-back movement.

The part that hurt the most was buying all new hardware for the manifolds from GM. Total was about $60. $3.50 just for each thick washer. GM studs are cheaper than the GM bolts???

I mainly built this thing for learning about turbos and the GM $58 Syclone code. So looks wasn't really a factor. It was more about doing it on a budget and keeping it durable. It kind of has a "Mad Max" hacker look with all of the lines. The block/engine is nothing fancy. I went with all steel lines because it was cheaper and I could get the bends I needed without having to run clamps every 3 inches.

I had put the complete EFI setup on it last year. The total cost for that was $900. The ECM, wiring harness, LT1 intake were all from the junkyard. I got the GM 24#/hr injectors used off of ebay for $85. I bench tested them and all flowed good. The Ford 42 #/hr injectors I just installed are much louder (clicking) than the GM injectors.

I think the audio is a little out of my league. I don't know if the laptop I have even has a sound card. It is an older win98 thing. I will take a look but can't promise anything.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I couldn't figure out how to post multiple pics in one post. Here is a few low res. pics of the manifolds

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

Excellent work on the turbo manifolds looks good. I admire custom projects like that, anybody can order parts and put them together.

The_Raven

That looks really nice, one of the cleanest custom "DD" installations I've seen. I like your use of hard line too, I plan on doing that when I revamp my system in my truck, I used braided and rubber hose/tube, but prefer the look, durability and pefrformance using hard tube. (By "performance" I mean the way the connected components work, I changed from a rubber hose to metal tube for my BOV and noticed much quicker responce from it that also effected the between shifts responce of the engine reactions).

I'll be looking into the 749 $58 bin myself, but will be sticking with the V6 code, since it will be on a V6 still, just a 60* instead of a 90*.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Some $58 code in a 730 ECM info:

I did some tuning on the $58 code tonight installed in the 730 ECM. It is cool out (about 50 degrees F). I am using the following for ALDL and bin tuning:

I had some quirks trying to datalog with the win98 laptop computer at first. The problem I had was that I wan't opening the .ads file after I had the log windows open.
Tunerpro V4.0 is working excellent now for both BIN mods and ALDL logging. I also used TunerCat with the $58-B file for some mods because I like the 3D graph layout.

I started with the 1618BBZD (DIY-PROM board) DIY-EFI.ORG and at a DIY-WBO2 patch I founding searching DIY-PROM. It uses the 730 pin F14 (TPS2) as an input and the .ads file included with TP4.0 reports the WBO2 value to the "desired AFR" field in the ALDL field. It works great.

For 730 ECM pin swapping to the $58 code I did the following:
Stock 1992 Camaro 730 MAP ECM harness.
swapped the IAC pins (green/blk swapped with green/wht) and (blue/blk swapped with blue/wht). I don't use TCC so I didn't touch those pins. I also run an optical VSS in the car so that was already an input to the 730 ECM at pin C6 which worked fine with the 730 $8D code. It also works correctly when I dropped in the $58 code. Overall, I only did the IAC pin swap described above.

I use Atmel 29C256 chips that are 32k bytes. Since the $58 code is only 16k bytes I had to "bin stack". I did this by using the MS-DOS command "copy /b 16k.bin+16k.bin 32k.bin. This takes the 16k bins and stores them together as one file called "32k.bin". It works great. I did have one ZIF socket problem that took a few hours to figure out. I wore out my ZIF socket in the ECM and had to install another one.

I changed some stuff in the stock BBZB bin for this app. I changed the BPC vs. EGR to values of 100 for the whole table (355ci with 42 #/hr injectors). I reduced the closed throttle VE table by .9. I changed the ALDL idle rpm to 800. I changed the normal idle rpm to 750rpm. I changed the spark base angle to 6 degrees. The V8 fuel cutoff was changed to cut off at 5800rpm and resume at 5600 rpm. I left ALL non-idle spark and VE tables as BBZB stock.

The idle fluctuates but is driveable. I recorded BLMs from 134 to 145. So the VE tables are lean in general. I did two passes rolling into the throttle in third gear from 50ish to 90ish mph. I built up to 7psi of boost at 5000rpm. The ALDL data showed the WBO2 was reading about 11.3 to 10:1 AFR. Lower AFR at higher rpm. So it is rich under boost which is good for now.
I need to get the idle stabilized and the part throttle BLMs better and then move on to WOT AFR. Then on to the spark tables and then back to the VE tables over and over until it is right. Overall, the $58 code is great and Tunerpro 4.0 is great for ALDL and BIN mods. No detonation at all........but it is 50 degrees outside.

J

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I messed with the Nissan wastegates tonight to try and turn the boost down. I picked up an air pressure regulator at Home Depot because the one I had croaked. I attached the output of the regulator to a wastegate with a Tee to the Auto Meter boost gauge in the car for an accurate reading.

I found that the left wastegate starts to open at 6.2psi and is fully open at 11.2 psi. The right wastegate starts to open at 7psi and is fully open at 12psi. I decided to adjust the wastegate rod ends. I had soaked them all summer with PB Blaster but it didn't help. Even with heat both rods snapped at the rod end junction. I drilled and tapped the rod ends and welded threaded rod onto the actuator side so it is like factory only with new threads.

I set the rod ends 3 full turns out from fully closed. That is, with the actuator closed and the wastegate valve closed. This should give less boost. The valves are now about 1/8" open when the actuators are completely closed. I think it will probably spool slower now though. True??

Anyone know the right way to calibrate/adjust the wastegates?
Or even how they did it on their setup?

J

(edited - wastegate fully closed valve opening from 1/4" to 1/8")

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am wondering how the aftermarket rates their wastegates. Is a "6psi setting" when the wastegate starts to open or is fully open?

I checked the stock SAAB/Volvo wastegates. They start to open at about 2.5psi and are fully open at 12psi.......in case any one else uses them.

J

Z69

Neither I think.
That's what it's rated to control at.
The spring pressure is balanced against the boost pressure.
That's why some run those little homemade manual boost controllers and set them to x. The manual set up won't allow pressure to open till say 5psi or whatever. Which makes the gate stay shut and speeds up spool time.
Sometimes exh pressure can open the gate anyway.
Stock 7.3 fords have this problem up around 25psi.
The port size of the gate has some affect to.
If your gate is too small for the cid you'll get boost creep too.

Does your email work? I sent you something.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The aftermarkets say things like "XXX spring = 6psi", "YYY spring = 9psi", etc. Assuming the XXX spring, does this mean the valve starts to open at 6psi, or is it fully open at 6psi?

The spring pressure is just Force = K_spring * X_distance. So the PSI balances the spring as you said. It is the X_distance thing I am wondering about. Is the 6psi for X_distance = 0, or is it for X_distance fully compressed??

I will find out this weekend if the car has "boost creep". I haven't driven it that hard yet because the VE tables need quite a bit of work. Timing seems OK....very little advance overall.

I forgot the password to that email account. I will get the password in a few hours and check it.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I just logged into that account and it complained and said something about not using it enough. I got into it and it said I have 0 messages. I don't know what happened. It seems to have trashed everything.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I measured for an intercooler tonight. I had my heart set on a Ford PowerStroke IC, but it isn't gonna happen. I am thinking of going with two Volvos welded together in parallel. I think that would give decent efficiency and psi drops.
Any one running a Volvo intercooler? How do you like it?

J

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Three SAAB intercoolers seem to fit the hole nice. They should flow enough air for 500hp @ .5-2psi pressure drop. That is a guess from what I found searching the web and turbomustangs.com.

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

I have a couple of saab intercoolers also I'm going to try, sorry cant say how well they work, still building my engine.
You ask about my turbos, I have the BBS Designs kit,

on turbos
garrett
p/n 466800-0005
s/n gl18393w
model # tbo3
m24 a/r.42 ec-3 compressor housing
a/r 48 turbine housing

Thats really all I know about them, the 60 trim part I found on his website. His headers are a high quality, heavy duty and freekin heavy, a little overkill for a car, but I can live with that lol. Should not have any problems out of them.

Sorry for my ignorance, Ive been around turbos all my life (diesels though), but I dont know much about them, sizing, etc. and building a gasoline setup.



Hope everyone had a good turkey day!

Hows your project coming along junkcltr?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the BBS kits look nice. Interesting, all of the junkyard Garrett T03 turbos marked .48 A/R turbine and .42 A/R compressor I find are either 40 trim or 45 trim. He must be having them custom made or off of an application I have not come across. What is the diameter of the compressor inducer?
You won't see the boost gauge hit 30psi like you do in the diesel trucks.

The snow came so the Camaro is sitting right now. I have the intercoolers cut apart and I am ordering some sheet aluminum next week. I started on the twin turbo pick-up truck a few nights ago. I should have the exhaust manifolds done this weekend. This project will be a lot easier than the Camaro. I got two Volvo intercoolers and a couple of oil&water cooled .42 A/R comp, .48 A/R T3 garretts for it out of the junkyard. The 130K+ mile stock 305ci TPI that is in could use a little more power. Since the car is off the road I need something with boost code in it to mess with.
I think it should be done by Christmas.
J

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I started playing with the tune on the 730 ECM with 749/$58/BBZB code in it. I changed the VE tables a lot and very small changes to the spark tables. Idle is much better than it was before. It idles almost as good as the 730 ECM with 730/$8D/AUJP code. It could be a lot better so I am looking to go to single fire mode at low BPWs because the idle BPW are 1.2ms with the 42#/hr injectors. The injectors have a duty cycle of 86% at 5500 RPM with 7 PSI of boost. It is still on the rich side at WOT (about 11.0 AFR). I still haven't taken it to 6000 RPM yet.

The transmission is starting to show slight bits of silver in the oil. No 1/4 miles yet. I think I am going to run out of gear with the 4.11 at the track anyway.

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

Glad to see you getting to play with your car again. That sucks about the tranny, always sumthing with these toys. Still working on mine, when I find the time.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I took a better look at the trans. fluid today. It isn't as bad as I thought. It looks like just accelerated clutch wear. Hopefully, it will last for a little while. I started reeling in the WOT AFR from 9.5-10 ish to 11.5-12 ish.
I had major spark blow out with it at 10 AFR. As soon at it hit 5600 RPM it felt like the fuel-cutoff was activated. That is with Autolite 24s, 9.5 PSI boost, 5600 RPM, 10 AFR. It would be nice if bringing it to 12ish AFR doesn't blow out the spark. I am going to through a new set of plugs in it tomorrow and see where I am at first. The ones that are in it took a licking trying to get the idle tuned decent. I am actually starting to like the Ford 42#/hr injectors.
It is interesting to see that as I lean it out it makes more boost. I haven't really thought about why that is happening, but it seems to be. Getting the AFR & spark better has brought on the boost earlier too.

I should have it blown up in about a month or so. I wanted 6-7 PSI of boost but even with the swing gate wastegates opened up it still peaks at 9.5PSI. It is not detonating with 93 octane and IAT temps are about 140* F at 9.5 PSI so I guess I will leave it this way until I throw the cam and intercooler in it. The spark blow out is good in a way.......it won't let me rev it to 6000 RPM.

Steven89Iroc

That's the best thing I've heard all day. I've only been hearing bad things about the 42's for a long time now about how impossible they are to get to idle decently with batch fire. It sounds like you're taming them, if not perfectly, at least decently enough. I was planning on just giving in and idling the thing at 1000 or 1100 rpm or something. As of now (as it sits in storage), it's still on the $8D with the 42's, and it doesn't idle nicely at all.

Just wanted to say thank you, as all these and other posts of yours will prove to be very helpful to me when I get to the point of dialing my setup in on the '730/$58.

It seems that stock ignition is rarely enough for decent boost. Hopefully I won't have a problem as I have an MSD-6A to throw on it.

What turbine wheels are in your turbos?

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

That higher boost from the leaner mixture, is from the hotter fire your getting going leaner, not smoother it out with fuel as much and cooling from the richer mixture = more exspansion of the hotter exhaust gasses spinning your turbines. Atleast thats what I think is happening, you might could nudge your timing up a little and take some advantage of that richer mixture.

I'm glad your getting to and have some fun. Also like Steven89Iroc said I too thank you and the other pioneers on all this work we take for granted, without everyone before me I wouldn't be burning my own my own chips, I'd still have a carb. I'm not at all computer litterate.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I think I used about 20 to 25 gallons of 93 octane tuning idle, part throttle, and wide open. Probably about 5 or six gallons of that was just for tuning idle but not all at the same time. I would tune idle and then drive a little to clean up the spark plugs. Last time I checked them they were mostly brownish but had remants of fouling. New ones will go in today or tomorrow. I have them gapped at .030". I have a stock small cap HEI with an MSD2 coil. A very poor boost ignition. I was thinking about getting the Crane ignition w/ the LX92 coil. I think it is like $250 for the setup. I want to see what it does without it first.

The injectors seem fine. I have never tuned anything with injectors bigger than 30#/hr. Larger injectors are more sensitive to BPW adjustments. Once I stopped changing stuff too much, things started to straighten out. The most difficult part was getting the car to stay running when the 17AMP fan kicked on. I played around with MAP delta settings to get it to richen up when the fan came on. It idles at 800 RPM with a 216*@.050 cam, LT1 intake. A lot of people complain about the LT1 intake with even smaller cams and smaller injectors so that could have a little to do with it also. I tuned the car in closed loop first to rough it in, then tuned in open loop for finer tuning, and now I am back to closed loop for minor tweaks at part throttle. WOT is all done with a DIY WBO2 and ALDL data logging.

I tried the 730/$8D AUJP code at first with the 42#/hr injectors. I ditched it quickly because I could roll on the throttle slowly and build boost. The ECM was not in PE mode so it wanted to give 14.7:1 under low boost. Bad, bad, I left off quickly. The $58 cleared that all up. I do like the $8D code better from a theoretical point of you and how it uses multiple BLM cells and everything in general. If there was a boosted version of it I would run that instead of the $58. It idled at 750 rpm with the $8D code and 24#/hr injectors. So I gave in a little with the idle set at 800 rpm now.

Not sure on the turbine wheel size. They are stock Garrett .63 A/R turbine & wheel. I should have measured them when I took the housing off to clock the turbos for the V8.

Steven89Iroc

Good stuff, thanks. I'm going to try to get it running on the $58 before I install the turbos, that way I don't have to worry about the reasons we switch to $58 in the first place.

I have a stock L98 TPI, heads, and cam (just stronger internals) so I really shouldn't have too much problem getting it to idle once I figure things out.
I could live with the idle being a bit higher than 750, as it's at 900 right now just to keep it from stalling, and that's with a straight through exhaust, which makes it pretty loud. I think even 900 could be livable once the turbos are quieting it down a bit, if I had to, but I'd rather not.
It surges and falls pretty bad right now, but that's not all the 42's as it was doing that with the LB9 19's (on the L98) before I swapped them. I really need to figure out what the problem is with that before I can tune for idle, because it didn't do that on the stock LB9 before I pulled it out. Part throttle and WOT is fine, however.
I have the same tuning stuff as you, minus the WB. Tunerpro 4 with the same definition files and .bins.

If you're not detonating at 9.5 psi, why do you say it should blow soon? You think it's making too much power for the internals?

I just wanted to compare the turbine wheels as I also have 60 trim T3's with .63a/r turbine housings, with the "stage III" wheels. I think yours are smaller, but I'm not sure.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You are doing it the right way by tuning first without the turbos on it. I get in a bind sometimes wondering which VE table for the $58 I should edit. Luckily, it was tuned OK with the $8D so I have those VE and Spark tables to reference when I make mods to the $58 tables. It would have been better to tune the $58 without the turbos first. The turbos corking the exhaust will change the VE of the engine but I still think it would have been better to tune without them first.

From experience, the GM speed density code is A LOT more sensitive to a cold O2 sensor at idle than the GM MAF code. I had two almost identical engines running on the two different systems/ECMs. The MAF would idle at 650 rpm +/- 50 rpm (very smooth). The SD would idle at 700 +/- 100 RPM. It rougher idle was due to the O2 getting cold at idle and going silent.
Both had headers with a stock TPI O2 sensor in the collectors. If you revved up the engine a bit you would see the O2 sensor switching voltage (via the ALDL link) as it should. As the exhaust cooled while idling you could see the voltage would stop switch and and just hang at a constant voltage with barely any swing. The ECM wasn't really designed to handle that. The MAF ECM is a lot less sensitive to this. The SD will surge the idle when the O2 cools.

Keep that in mind if you have headers with the stock O2 in the collector. Look at the ALDL data and see if this is happening. If it is, then you have two choices.
1) AC DELCO 3 or 4 wire heated O2 (about $70 to $100). You need to add 2 wires for the heater circuit.
2) WBO2 with simulated NBO2 output. My personal preference is the Innovative LC-1 for $200. It will both a WBO2 output and NBO2. Therefore, it keeps the ECM happy and gives you the ability to tune WOT much better. So, I look at it this way.....$200 - $100 = $100 for a WBO2 sensor because the AC DELCO NBO2 is $100. I do not own one of these LC-1 sensors but everything I have read from end users and about how the designed it is good. Also, the sensor it uses can be bought for about $40. I am thinking about maybe buying one for the turbo truck I have been working on.
3???) Modifying the GM SD code to that it does open loop in idle. This isn't easy.

The stock TPI intake is good for idle. Your idle will be defined by you cam specs. More overlap makes for a poorer idle. If it surged with the 19#/hr then I would have to guess that you have headers with a cold O2. Second, I would guess that you have a good sized cam. Third, I would guess the IAC is not set correctly. Fourth, I would guess the timing is off. Take a look at the O2 voltage in the "monitor window" and seeing if it is bouncing up and down. If it is staying constant, then the O2 sensor is too cold to function properly.

Yeah, I don't think the crank & rods will take it. GM cast crank (that was supposed to be forged when I bought the car) and GM cast X-rods. The rods aren't bad, but the crank doesn't sit well with me. So far so good. I have learned a lot about the $58 and how turbos work. I still have a huge about to figure out about the code though. Learned how to TIG weld and arc weld in the process. I was more interested in that than making HP. Although, the HP is fun. Probably only 450 FWHP, but it is more than I ever had even in "good" N/A engine I had built by a machine shop years ago. I think turbos are the best HP per $ when it comes to speed parts. The turbo setup cost about $1800 and I gained at least 100HP. A set of AFR heads & cam would have given probably 60HP for $1800 in N/A form.

Yeah, the stage III turbine wheels are bigger than the stock ones I have. If I had access to stock or stage III, I would have taken the stage III. I did it it junkyard style. Your setup sounds nice. What 1/4 mile times are you looking for? 11's or so.

Steven89Iroc

That's interesting about the O2, I've never heard that before. However, that isn't my problem, as my O2 voltage cycles as it's supposed to even when it's surging, and the problem gets slightly better when it's really cold outside, which is of course the opposite of what should happen.
I may have to watch out for the cold O2 once I get the turbos on because the new O2 location is in a downpipe after the turbo (I had one welded on each DP, so the stock one will sit in one or the other). Hopefully it won't be much of an issue but if it is, I'll deal with it if it comes.

Like I said the cam is a stock '89 L98 cam which is small, the TPI is stock (except for an airfoil, slightly opened up TB bore and a removed EGR wall, I hope that isn't the problem), it has stock manifolds right now, I reset the IAC once, and the timing is dead on stock.

I don't know anything about your rods, but the cast crank should be fine at 450bhp. I've researched and there are alot of N/A guys that use cast cranks in their 500hp sbc's for several race seasons. Boost is even friendlier on cranks. I'd say they wouldn't take a whole lot more than that, but you shouldn't have a problem. Otherwise make sure it's all bolted down with good hardware.

Boost definitely can be cheaper per hp than N/A, but I'm kind of going all out on a daily-driver type mild street setup, so it hasn't been cheap. I have the BBSDesigns street/strip TT kit with the afformentioned T3's, I had everything ceramic coated and everything will be wrapped, I'm making my own FMIC pipes out of aluminum 2.25" and 3" pipes with a cut semitruck IC that I need to have welded along with two 1G DSM BOV's, then there's all the little stuff that adds up, like fuel, spark, and relocating everything to fit the turbos in there while keeping factory A/C.
The engine is like I said, plus Speed Pro D-cup forged pistons (9:1 final scr), GM powdered metal rods, and ARP hardware. I really want some aluminum heads for it, but can't swing that price tag any time soon. I expect that my bottom end will handle 500hp just fine. Time will tell, though. Providing I can tune it good enough, I might be able to run 15psi on pump gas, but definitely on race gas.

Since I have a stock rear and will have so much torque, I won't put slicks or DR's on it until I upgrade that, so with the T56 and cheap-o 275/40/17's on the back, I think I'll run somewhere in the 12's at a much-faster-than-12's mph, hehe.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The O2 cooling is a real thing. You could read other posts about it in the DIY PROM. Quite a few people have had this problem. I see it on the turbo car with the O2 in the downpipe about 1 foot away from the turbine.

Not sure what to tell you about the surging. Did you reset the IAC? I fired up a stock 305ci with the twin turbos using $58, 2bar map, Ford 30#/hr red tops. The bin had changes to keep it out of single fire mode, idle VE reduced, and BPC for a 305ci w/ 30#/hr. It started instantly and idled like it did with the MAF setup. That was in a heated garage. It will take some tuning to get it right for other weather conditions.

When I do TPI plenum porting up front I always leave the IAC speed bumps at the TB opening area. I slightly reduce the height and reshape them more like a cyl head valve radius area. The bumps create a venturi effect and increase air speed. They really aren't a restriction to me, but do need reshaping.

The calculators show that the camaro engine should be in the 440 - 520 FWHP range depending on VE/BSFC. Using the ALDL I logged it looks like the engine is at about .60 BSFC. That would equate to about 480HP at 5600 RPM. When I fix the spark blow out and bring it up to 6000 RPM then it equates to 510 FWHP. The injector BPW widths seem to match this.

All I know from driving it is that it is faster than when it was in N/A form. I am not a big believer in wheel dynos. I think all they can do is give a reference. I guess if the operator could calibrate it for torque converter slip it would be OK. I will bring it to the track in about a month or so to see what I have. I always run street tires so the times will not be stellar (2.2ish in 60') but I am curious about the MPH.

That sounds like a very nice setup you are building. Coating it is the way to go. It should be pretty darn indestructable with the parts you have chosen. A/C would be nice, although I never had a vehicle with working A/C. Where did you buy the alum. pipes for the IC? I want to use alum. when I install an IC, but all I could find is 16ga. alum. ubends. That means I would have to weld .125" wall pieces at each end where the T-bolt clamps go to keep it from crushing. I was thinking of buying a piece to see how tight I can run the clamps. Maybe the 16 ga. would be fine. I don't want to buy elbows at $25 a whack and find out that I have to spend 2x hrs tigging ends on them. Maybe they would be OK after I TIG the lip on them. Anyway, what did you use and where did you get them? Racepartsolutions.com ??

If you don't have the money for alum. heads and still have the heads off of the engine then I would port them. Get a copy of David Vizard's "How to port cyl heads" and read it 10+ times and stare at all of the pictures. Even if the heads are on it, it is still worth buying. I did mine using that book, an Ingersoll Rand die grinder with carbide burrs from www.americancarbide.com.

I am running 93 octane, 9.5PSI, 8.6ish:1 CR, no IC (IAT temps are 140* F) and it doesn't detonate, YET. It is still rich and has 23* BTDC. With my junk heads that need a lot of timing for peak HP, 23* is not pushing it. Anyway, I am not sure if you will get 15PSI on pump with 9:1 and an IC. I guess it depends on the eff. of the compressors and the eff. of the IC.

12's no problem. I love seeing cars that soft launch and clock 12's or less. It is really funny when 9 sec cars do that. Besides, the street tires are fun because you can be driving along at town speed, whack WOT, have it downshift and light up the tires.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Drain as much fluid out of it as you can (you can disconnect a cooler line and actually pump most of I out, then drop the pan and dump the rest), and then add some type f or trickshift and you’ll get a little more out of the tranny. I’ve gotten away with putting a transgo in one that wasn’t doing 2-3 at all and I got about 20K miles and 120 more passes out of it before I lost 3rd and 4th.

The closer it is to right the faster it does everything… when you’re making more power you’re making more exhaust…

I’ve had MUCH better luck with big injectors and my ‘730/$58 setup then I ever did with the previous 165/maf setup. Half the chips I burned for the 165 with bigger injectors didn’t even want to start…

I have a Hi6-TRS and an LX92 coil. I’m not sure that I’m happy with it. Car runs fine, idles great without fouling, even with super cold plugs on the street, BUT, I can’t get it to play nice at the track (and it only does this at the track), for some reason the tach flips out when making a pass at the track, I can’t reproduce it on the street and I haven’t had any luck tracing it down. As far as I can tell, the ECM is getting the correct tach input, but by the time it gets to the tach and the rpm’s start climbing the tack just starts flapping around. The strangest thing is that I can’t make it do it on the street.

You know, I never managed to get a perfectly smooth idle with any injectors with my ‘165 setup. I managed to get the surging and weirdness better and worse at times, but never got rid of it till I went to the $58. The best that I got it was when I finally just disabled everything that wasn’t necessary (the various fuel cut, egr, highway mode and other unnecessary things) and never really figured it out, it would just every once in a while surge a few hundred rpm at idle when warm, but it was just in a specific range, if the idle was higher or lower by like 100rpm it wouldn’t do it.

You know, people say that but when I went to the $58 I just took a stock sy/ty mask, adjusted it for the v8, injector size and the fuel cut (it does it by total ignition pulses so it ends up being only 2/3 the rpm on a v8, initially I thought that everything was just going haywire somewhere between 3000 and 3500rpm), and the car ran almost perfectly.

I’ve had a bunch of SD cars including 2 3rd gens with headers and single wire O2’s and I’ve never actually seen an O2 that would drop out of closed loop sitting around idling, but people keep posting about it happening…

Probably the quickest and cheapest way to go… any heated O2 will work, so just get whatever is cheapest… I have a bunch of left over 4th gen stuff and probably have half a dozen newish heated O2’s that I’ve used for assorted stuff that I didn’t pay anything for.

$40??? Where? The innovate stuff does have the nice feature of calibrating to any WBO2 that you plug into it, but I haven’t seen a sensor for less then $160 that was in stock for a while.

One thing to look out for is that if the LC1 works like their LM1 (I have an LM1), the analog output isn’t necessarly putting out what is a normal NBO2 curve, the output is programmable.

The second issue is that WBO2’s just aren’t as durable as NB, and cost much more. You can ruin them with something as simple as starting the engine with it installed and not connected to a turned on driver circuit (say you unplugged your innovate or blow a fuse). I like to treat it as a tuning tool, and only have it installed when I’m tuning, and use a normal O2 the rest of the time (and 2 bungs…).

There’s a whole mess of people out there that have run quite fast with stock cast bottom ends. One guy on the turbomustangs (turbogms…) board used a stock 350 short block to run deep into the 9’s for quite a while. It never really went out, but eventually he wiped out a couple of bearings and on disassembly he found that a bunch of the crank throws were bent about .020”

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

How weird. That was the plan for next weekend. Already have the trickshift fluid sitting here. It does some really nasting things (shutters) when taking off from a stop and laying into it slowly to half throttle. Under this condition the turbos are just about to go into positive boost and the transmission goes to shift to second gear and has a fit. It only likes a nice easy normal take-off or a heavy throttle launch.

That seems to be the case. I was fooling around with it trying to see where it starts to boost from dead stop in idle. Yeah, it sounds like a dumb thing to do, but I was curious. Laying into it softly to keep the street tires from spinning shows the boost start at about 3000 to 3500 RPM. If I could load it and go WOT instantly it would come in around 2500 RPM. My only real world horsepower calculator is rolling at 45mph on a flat area and whacking WOT to see how long the tires spin. It went from none, to a little, and now a little more. Again, sounds dumb but I need some kind of reference.

That doesn't sound good. I wonder if they have some sort of large RF transmitter at the track. Did you try putting some S/S braided shield on the tach wire? I wonder if the coil inductance changes enough at higher temps (staging lines) and cause more inductive kick that the tach input can't handle. That would cause a jumping tach. At worst I can probably modify the $58 to dump the tach signal on an unused output driver. Not something I would look forward to doing though. The Crane info sheet for the LX92 coil shows that it takes a fair amount of juice to to build the mag. field. That is why I liked it. Quicker field build/collapse = more energy at the plugs.

Yeah, the CAL for the SyTy is good for small block. I pretty much took the stock BBZB $58, changed the single fire BPW params, VE tables, a little spark, fuel cut RPM and just ran it at first. It ran decent enough to drive. I have been messing with other params here and there but I haven't really done anything great with them. The two main things are fuel cut & single fire mode. Those will really mess up how it runs.

Nah, it will stay in closed loop with a cold O2. It just has no clue what it is trying to do. The cool O2 will meet the specs to keep it in closed loop, but will not give it enough info about what the O2 really is. Take a look at the ALDL O2 data while driving and then compare it to O2 data from idling after a few minutes with an O2 that is too cold. It will bounce back and fourth driving and have tiny swings when cold....just enough for the ECM to think it knows the O2 in the exhaust.

Ya know, I thought about going to the junkyard for heated O2s. Every time I go there for stuff like that they start laughing at me. Maybe it has something to do always wanting used wiring harnesses, an old pick-up frame, some connectors, etc. I do have one fourth gen 4 wire kicking around. If you look up the part number on the AC Delco site it is listed for all kinds of SEFI cars. The AFS-74 is listed for the older batch fire stuff. I always wondered what the difference is. Maybe there is no difference. The SEFI just has a dedicated pump ground which is better.

Ah man, your going to make me dig out the invoice. They are online all over the place for $40 on the web.....just kidding. I got them from VW Parts & Volkswagen Accessories - 1stVWparts - Below Wholesale. and the part number is 021-906-262-B. It is the LSU4 sensor. They were $39 a piece & shipping was $8 for two of them. I bought them a while ago so I don't know if they have stock. I haven't used them yet. I bought them anticipating the megasquirt PWC WBO2 module that will be able to use the LSU4 sensor. I still use the NTK L1H1 with the DIY WBO2 controller. I got the NTK from Autozone 2 years ago for $170. It was boxed as Bosch and marked NTK L1H1 on the sensor itself.

Good info on the LM1 simulated output for NB. I have been thinking of adding some code to the $58 so that it uses the NTK. Some guys have been playing with it over at DIY PROM. I want to take different approach than what they are doing. I would like to make a lookup table to map the WBO2 to NBO2 and have the ECM read the "looked up" value instead of the stock NBO2. Last year I put two bungs in each downpipe so I would have something to test with. I still haven't gotten around to the code change.
Yeah, WBO2 are picky from what I have heard. The the NTK has been working great but I would like to stick another WBO2 (LSU4) in there to see what the differences are. Kind of dreaming right now though. Still trying to finish up the turbo truck & $58 source code comments. The NTKs are tough to swallow at $170 a piece.

The camaro engine is no beauty. I bought the car complete because "it was a good deal". I didn't really want it at all because I had one just like it but in much better condition. It had a "fresh" 355ci with forged crank, KB pistons, X-rods, trickflow alum heads, big cam, roller rockers, gear drive, victor jr., new Grant carb, etc. New TCI TH350 trans. with new TCI 3000 RPM stall, 4.10 gears, fresh paint, and so on. I buy the thing kind of unseen and the paint is fresh and pretty straight. Interior is decent. Guy fires it up and it smokes (supposed to be 3k miles on the fresh engine). He says his buddy "squirted some oil in the mufflers when he put the 4.10 gears in it". Yeah, like I believed that. Still a good deal though. It pulled 13 flat in the 1/4 consistently.
So I get it home and try it out with a few full thottle runs. It breaks up beyond 5600 RPM. I chuck a points distr. in it that was laying around. It clears up the break-up. Still smokes though. I beat the bag out of it some more, still smokes. It needs rings. I tear it apart and one Comp Cams alum. rocker is worn funny. Yeah, Trick flow heads with bad valve geometry. I pull the heads, the guides are cleaned out. The cyl walls are glazed, the rings never seated from day one. One piston has a ever so small valve mark on it. Cam is giant. Crank is really cast, not forged. Cyls measure fine, it had a fresh .030" bore. I had it honed, new rings, different heads, smaller cam. Then came LT1 intake, 730 EFI, and then came twin turbos. Maybe I am just paranoid about this engine. I have always been lucky and "fresh" engines always just seem to work.
Wow, long story.

Steven89Iroc

Yeah, I reset it.

That could be my problem then, as I vaporized the wall. It doesn't exist anymore, it's all smooth in there now. The problem did start with the new engine (regardless of ECU or injectors), and I did that when I had the TPI off for the swap. I read that this wasn't a problem which is why I went ahead, but that could have been bad info. I suppose I could epoxy a wall back in there to see, but I wouldn't want that coming loose and destroying my new engine, so maybe I'll get ahold of a stock plenum and swap it.

Sounds like it's a screamer. You're having the same problem as I suspect I will, that being rubber melting right from under you. I'm also curious how it will run, especially in the heavier body than I'm used to.

Yeah, coating is mandatory for durable turbo systems for more than a few reasons IMO. I got the Jet Hot 2400* coatings, as I was impressed by it when I had my Talon's header coated. I'm also going to wrap the DP's and put blankets on the turbines. I'm really worried about summer heat and melting stuff, hopefully that'll all take care of it.
I just couldn't see adding all that weight in steel piping (lots of piping for a FMIC with TT's), that's why I went with aluminum. Not to mention it should dissipate heat faster. The stuff I have is .070" thick, so it's a little stronger than 16ga. However, I think 16ga would hold clamps just fine because it's round, the same reason you can't crush an eggshell with your hand if you apply even pressure all the way around.
I bought the pipes, couplings, and clamps from Road Race Engineering in CA. They're a DSM/Evo shop, but they sell lots of DIY parts (plenty not listed on the website too, like aluminum straight pipes). RRE Mandrel Bent Exhaust Bends and Intercooler Bends

The engine is in the car and running with the idle surge as mentioned. I didn't have time to port the heads before, but I wouldn't have attempted it yet anyway. However, with that book I just may in the future. I could install thicker head gaskets at the same time to lower compression a bit, but I like my .036 quench clearance, so it's hard to say which would help resist detonation more. I don't know that I'll be able to run 15psi on 93, but I'll find out from starting out low and building up as I tune. Once detonation becomes a real issue, I'll call it max boost on 93, up to 15psi at the most that is. There are a few people running 12psi with 93 on stock L98's with intercooled centrifugal setups, so I think I may get away with a little more, but we'll see (not to mention that my Talon with a small FMIC runs 22psi on 93 without a problem, but of course it's a different animal). If nothing else, C16 will take care of detonation and will let me run 15psi for the strip. I really want to run E85 all the time (INSANE results in my Talon, better than C16), but I can't afford to upgrade the fuel system to supply that much more yet.

Yeah, it should be fun. Not looking forward to it not being able to catch my 4-banger in the 1/4 though, hehe.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I have never completely removed the IAC speed bump at the TB so I can't really say if that is the problem. You could try closing up the TB adjustment screw to increase the IAC opening and see if the idle improves. That would increase the IAC air speed. If it does clean up the idle then it is a sign that the bump needs to be there.

I run junk 275x60x15 tires so it doesn't take much to break them loose.

The 2nd gen camaro had enough room that I didn't really need shields/blankets. The truck is another story though. I still have to make shields for the brake booster & master cylinder. You plan is good in that you will have nothing to worry about or add on later.
I really don't want to go S/S or steel when I install the IC in the Camaro. The IC core alone is 24"x12"x4.25" and weights quite a bit. I think I kind of need to go with alum. pipe for the IC. I checked out that link a while ago and forgot all about it. Thanks for posting it. Yeah, at .070" wall with a bead tigged on the end should be fine (bead is for keeping the couplings on). Not that I get boost spikes. The single Bosch 710N CBV dumps enough air with a full throttle let off at 9.5PSI around 5000 RPM (in case anyone else was wondering about CBVs)

In that case I wouldn't touch the heads. The book is worth it though. If you do have a set of heads kicking around, flowbench them with a garden hose before you start cutting an heads. Go ahead and laugh, but try it. You will be surprised how much you can learn about what fluids (air/water) do in an odd shape like that. I have been wanting E85 for it. It sucks, none of it around here. Ah, my injectors aren't big enough for it anyway and my fuel pump won't flow enough for it.

[/QUOTE]
The main reason I went turbo was to learn about them and how the GM SyTy $58 code worked. The second reason was because last year I got lined up next to a compact car that had a wing on the back bigger than my car. The light tree dropped and with my junk tires I took it off of the line. Then it came whistling by me like I hit neutral. The 12.8 it pulled was a lot quicker than the 14.0 that I pulled. So I guess I wanted to minimize the chance of that happening again. I didn't want the poor street characteristics of big flowing heads & big duration cam. So along came the turbos. After trying them out I wanted to turbo everything. I wish I had the 305ci 4x4 with T3 45 trims completed.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Hey, anything that gives you a real clue what is going on works.


My instinct is that the whole combination is just making that little bit too much spark power to keep everything happy. I’m debating what I’m going to try to test that idea, I’m debating trying a lesser coil, some resistor plugs or maybe even a smaller gap, just to keep the total voltage down a little more.

Crane is like “some ECM’s are just sensitive to the setup” and you end up having to use their separate tach drive box. I hate the idea of a semi mystery problem that no one has a real good answer for and their answer is just “here, throw $$$ at it and it will fix it.”

Either way, once I get the thing rolling again (I’ve got a blown up tranny and rear right now) I just picked up a couple of real 749’s that I’ll try dropping in before I mess with making the ignition any weaker.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I would think a lesser coil would clear it up. It would have to decrease the spark energy though. No way, would I do this. You want all the spark energy you can get. What is the brand of tach you are using?

It follows the equation V = L(dI/dT). The faster you switch the current to zero, the bigger the voltage is created. The bigger the L, the bigger the stored energy to fire the plugs. That big V happens on both sides of the coil. Bigger on the spark plug side. The problem is the tach circuit being able to handle the large voltage on the primary side. It is the same problem fuel injectors have. I am guessing that the clamp diodes on the tach input just can't handle the bigger voltage so you get the jumpy tack thing.
If I had that problem I would go to the megasquirt EFI page and take a look at the tach input signal conditioning ckt. You could take the tach signal and run it to an opticoupler and use the output to send to the tach. It would give it a very clean signal. Cheap and easy to build. I bet that is all the Crane box has in it. The Megasquirt EFI guys used to have the same problem.

I don't see what the ECM has to do with it. I thought the tach was having the problem. The ECM is having the problem too? If the ECM has the problem then I could only think the HEI module is bad (cross talk) or a wire shielding problem.
The 730 and 749 use the exact same circuit board. Each have different chips populated. On both the 749 and 730 ECMs, the distributor reference pulse (DRP) is taken from the distributor HEI module. The in-dash tach signal is taken from the coil. The HEI DRP signal is separate from the coil signal and is clean. The tach signal is nasty (L(dI/dT)) voltage spikes from large current pulses through the coil.

If you really get desparate, then install another HEI module that just does not fire the coil and only sends the tach signal to the tach. Check out the Megasquirt EFI page on how to wire it in. Any HEI module will work.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The factory tach is freaking out.

Crane is actually being pretty weird about the whole thing, they keep telling me that I should run a minimum of a .045” gap no matter how much boost I’m running with that combination of parts.

As far as decreasing the spark energy… that would just be a test to figure out if that is what is causing the problem. I have a couple of different accel coils floating around as well as at least 2 or 3 factory coils, and since I made myself a custom little modular harness for the ignition box, it’s easy enough to go from one coil to another (literally unplug the section that goes to the crane style coil connector and plug in the gm/hei style and try one of the other coils.

Again, it’s the factory tach, driven off the ECM. Past that it’s not my idea, it’s Crane’s idea.

This would bug me less if I had a good explanation why it does it at the track and not on the street… I’d also love to know why the tach would freak out and the ECM would be fine, since it seems like the way the factory wired them if one was freaking out both would.

What, as in run 2 hei modules? I’m not sure that I see the point…

I have wondered if there would be any advantage to figure out which wires are the signal out of the distributor to the ecm and which are the signal back in that has been modified for advance and then hooking those into the green/purple on the ignition box rather then back to the HEI module, letting the box work as it’s own module…, not that I really think that it would fix this problem.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

If your factory tach is wired as it was from the factory for a 749 or 730 ECM then the signal comes from the COIL trigger pin of the HEI module (this is what fires the coil). The ECM tach signal (really called DRP in GM and EFI terms) comes from the HEI module as a dedicated signal. Therefore, the gauge tach signal (wire on neg. coil term.) and the ECM tach signal (ppl/wht wire - HEI pin C) are completely two different wires out of the HEI module. It sounds like Crane thinks that the signal tach signal to the tach gauge comes from the ECM. It doesn't, it comes from the negative side of the coil.
Take a look at the factory 730 F-Body, Turbo Sunbird, GMC SyTy schematics at the GMECM website. You will see that all of these have the gauge tach signal coming from the coil. The ppl/wht wire DRP sent out be the HEI to the ECM is nice and clean. It has to be for reliable ECM operation. I think the signal to the tach gauge is nasty due to the large electrical current pulses in the coil. The large pulses create voltages that the tach interrepts as a pulse so it displays a different RPM.

Where do you have the tach wire connected to at the engine ignition?
Is it still connected to the coil neg. terminal (bad), or is it connected to the Crane tach output (green wire).

I just looked at the Crane manual for the Hi-6 and it shows that the GM inline tach filter should be disconnected. I don't think your car has one from the factory though.

HHhhmmm, I am almost thinking of starting over again with the ign problem.
Where is the tach wire connected to?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It almost sounds to me like you have the tach gauge wire still connected to the coil (but you think it is connected to the ECM). That is bad, the tach gauge wire (white wire on coil neg. terminal going into harness by the fuse block) needs to be connected to the green tach gauge wire on the Crane box. If you are having problems with this setup then you may need to filter it or use the optocoupler like the Megasquirt EFI setup.

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

83 Crossfire TA, how is your tach triggered, off your coil - (like stock), if it is I would move it before your Hi6 (module side, original - coil wire), that way your tach doesnt see the effects of your highpo ignition system. It sounds like that might be whats causing it, since it runs good and the ecm aint complaining, I'd say your module and distributor are good.

I have an old crane box on mine. A few years ago my tach started acting all kinds of crazy, but when mine did it ran like A$$, turned out to be the pickup coil I believe. It drove me nuts trying to find the problem because it only happened when it wanted to, I tried everything, bypassed the crane box thought that was it, ran good for a week, replaced module, nope, replaced coil, nope, about a month later when it done it again I replaced the pickup coil.

HTH

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, bone headed post…

Nutshell, the tach is connected with the stock harness (87, ‘165 harness repined for a 749). The crane box is connected right before the coil, basically the original coil connections going to the crane box and the crane box output going to the coil.

Crane recommends not using the green wire in a gm setup unless you’re driving an aftermarket item that needs a tach input like an aftermarket tach, shift light, window switch… I have none of that on this car.

And yes, I agree that it makes no sense for the box to affect the tach but not the ecm and for it to be the ecm, but _crane_ claims that that is not the case, that the tach flipping out like that is something “some ecm’s do, you could even get different results with the 2 of the same ecm.”

I need to dig up a wiring diagram of for their tach adaptor, the more I think about this the less I believe that the tach adaptor should do anything that I can’t get with the parts that I have now.

_I’m guessing_ (being somewhat electronics blocked, I just don’t want to sit down and really figure it out) that what is happening is that the ignition box is inducing some noise or ringing in the circuit that I don’t get normally but only under maximum load conditions, but I’m not really sure what to do to stop it/control it.

All of this also makes me wonder if I should expect that this thing will kill parts in the circuit much faster since they are having to deal with crap that they didn’t originally have to.

PhLaXuS

Just a random thought, but you could try placing a ferrite bead (like the kind used on computer monitors) on the tach wire to see if that helps. Doesn't require cutting or splicing of the wires at all. Depending on the model, you may even be able to steal one away from a monitor cable temporarily. A lot of them just snap shut.

I'm also leaning toward a radio transmitter near the track. Probably AM radio, too.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I keep saying that the stock 1987 tach gauge wire is connected to the COIL. You do not want the tach gauge seeing the Crane box fire the coil. It is VERY bad for the tach gauge and will cause it to jump RPM.

Think of your factory tach gauge like an aftermarket tach gauge. They are wired the same way. GM connected the tach gauge to the coil AND NOT THE ECM. The 730 and 749 DO NOT HAVE A TACH GAUGE OUTPUT SIGNAL. The Ludis schematics clearly show this and I have ohmed one out to see if it is correct. It is.
Like most companies offering tech support, Crane obviously is below standards. You should have heard the tech support guy at Comp Cams when I was looking for a turbo cam. "This one will work for your setup", the guy says. "I looked at that one but didn't like it, but what about this XX part number one", I say. The guy responds, "that one would work too". I ask about a few more and get the same response. In general, no help what so ever. Asking detailed tech questions to the guy.....forget it. He was stumped.

No, IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. The ECM is connected to the ppl/wht wire HEI wire that is DEDICATED for JUST THE ECM. This gives the ECM a reference when to do stuff (fire injectors, etc). The tach gauge is driven by the COIL NEGATIVE TERMINAL wire from the HEI module. Since you are now zapping the coil with high voltage, it is freaking the tach out.

Go to the GMECM/DIY-EFI.ORG site and look under the FTP directory in the manuals directory. Look under the 730 directory and look at the stock F-body diagram for the HEI module to coil/tach and the ECM. You will then clearly see what I am saying.
The look at the Crane Hi6 instructions and connect it up like a HEI ignition.

If you still have the tach gauge wire connected to the coil, then yes, you are applying 400V volts or better to it and causing all kinds of bad stuff.

The only thing you are going to destroy is the tach gauge circuitry. It is pretty simple though and probably could be fixed relatively easy.

Overall,
Ignore what Crane tech says because they are just people giving you canned responses. They know nothing about your application. I am surprised they didn't hang up when you said you did the ECM swap. Read the Crane Hi6 instructions and connect up you tach like an "aftermarket tach". It may be true that the green wire signal is too dirty ( A Crane F'up) to fire your tach properly. Odds are that it will be fine. Make sure you disconnect the tach wire from coil though.

The engineers usually help with writing install documentation. The tech support get tidbits of info from people that didn't do the design and usually aren't wise enough to understand it so they give out bad info unknowingly.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I guess you missed the part where he said the tach guage wire doesn't appear to be corrected properly. Why AM radio? I was thinking Spread Spectrum or a QFSK. I would be amazed if a ferrite bead on the wire does anything.