another twin turbo camaro - Power Adder - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

junkcltr · 11-04-2005, 12:34 PM

I finally finished up fabricating stuff for the 70 camaro. After I get the cam broken in then the 749 ECM and bigger injectors go in. With twin T3 60 trims it starts to boost at about 2000rpm. I did one run slightly heavy on the throttle the boost shot up to 10 psi which is way too much for what I want right now. A fair amount of tuning still needs to be done.
Here is a picture that could be useful to anyone that wants to turbo a second gen. car.

89JYturbo · 11-05-2005, 07:03 AM

Looks good. Should be very responsive (and powerful) with those T3's. DO you plan to drag race it?

Angelis83LT · 11-05-2005, 03:22 PM

looks very nice.

junkcltr · 11-05-2005, 03:35 PM

Thanks. The track is closed for the season so I have to wait until next spring for it to open back up. I was hoping to catch the last night of racing but just ran out of time. I guess it gives me time to tune it. I ran it once last year trying to tune the 730 MAP ECM.

It ran a best of 14.0 secs @ 98mph the quarter mile N/A earlier this year. Yeah, kind of slow....so the usually excuses apply.....bad driver, poor traction, bad gas, bad tires, etc. No really, the best it could probably do was 13.8 secs. So the 14.0 was fine by me.
This spring I ported the heads using Vizard's book as a guide. The are just smog 76cc 993 heads. One of the best of the junk heads. I like them for this app. because the compression comes out to 8.6:1 with a .055" quench using .028" head gaskets. The heads were $350 to have rebuilt so it fit the budget.

I put the Ford 42#/hr injectors in today and tried it out. I run stock fuel pressure. It started to detonate about 3500rpm with 30 degrees timing and 5psi of boost. I still have the 730 MAP ECM in it with the N/A bin I made. All I did to change it for the turbo setup was to set the upper VE table from 2600 rpm up at 98 fuel VE for map values of 90 and 100. THE BIG problem is that I am not wacking the throttle to WOT, so the 730 thinks it should maintain 14.7:1 and leans out because it is still in closed loop.

Overall, the 730 $8D code is useless in boosted apps as far as I can see unless you run open loop all of the time. A FMU would not help because it will give it more fuel, but the 730 ECM will try to make the pulsewidths smaller. Anyway, the 749 $58 code goes in tomorrow.

It seems to have more power before it detonates. At about 30mph I hit the throttle to WOT, it downshifted and broke the tires loose. It wouldn't do that with the N/A. So far I like it.
This is my first boosted car. It is a good toy to play with.
I haven't been able to see where the .63 A/R T3 housings run out of wind yet because of the detonation. The max. I revved it to is about 5000rpm. I used to rev it to 6000rpm with the N/A setup.

junkcltr · 11-05-2005, 03:38 PM

One other thing. Thanks to all the members for the great info on this board. I probably would not have tried the turbo setup without having the info I got from this board.

Special thanks to all the great stuff 89JYturbo and 83 Crossfire TA put out there.

J

Angelis83LT · 11-05-2005, 08:28 PM

Yea I am doing a similar setup on the 3rd gen 83 at some point. have almost all the aprts for it.. Although I am going with a blow through carb rather than injection...

midniteplowboyy · 11-06-2005, 07:39 PM

Looks good,

, wish my twin turbo project looked that good (i.e. put together

). I have most of my parts now, turbo's, headers, exhaust, bigger injectors, etc.. But no time to put it together (60+ hours at work). Here lately I've been trying to learn the $58 code for when i get it all put together. Could you or one of the members point me towards a known good bin, xdf file and ads file to start from, for my TunerproRt. I've found some but dont know which one to start with or to trust for my wbo2 input to datalog. How do like your lt1 manifold, I'm going that route also. Thanks, sorry for the long rant.

Mike-91 Formula 350 · 11-06-2005, 08:06 PM

Looks good.So I guess those housings are water cooled also?

355gta · 11-06-2005, 08:26 PM

That looks great. That is exactly how mine will look in my GTA. Can you let me in on your setup if it is not a secret. Such as cam, headers, heads, and what did you pull your turbos from. Thanks for all the info you can give me. I will keep you informed of mine. Also, are you using total seal rings. Thanks again.

junkcltr · 11-06-2005, 10:06 PM

midniteplowboyy,
It is a lot of work but worth it in the end. I just installed the $58 code in the 730 ECM today and it runs bad. It ran way better with the $8D code. But the $58 code runs way better at WOT....no more detonation. That is code. The xdf file I used gave a bad checksum and threw the SES and cool fan on. I tried the rr58_v14.ecu file with TunerPro 4.0 and it seemed to work fine. I have a lot of $58 idling part throttle bugs to straightened out now. I tried TP4.0 with a 92-93Typhoon.ads file I found but not of the ALDL data values seemed correct. I never use TP4.0 so it is probably something I was doing wrong. I will post more $58 stuff as I get it figured out.

Mike-91 Formula 350,
Yes, both are water cooled.

355gta,
The engine was in the car when I bought it. It had a big cam, Trickflow heads, and a bunch of other stuff. The guy said it ran 13.1 secs in the quarter. I wanted a daily driver and didn't like the cam. I wanted to run it on 87 octane, but the compression was close to 10:1.
I pulled those parts off. With the setup below without turbos and using 1 5/8" headers it ran a best of 14.0 @98 earlier this year.

Code:

  No secrets here.  The setup:
   Block: 197?  4-bolt 010 block
   Crank:  GM cast iron  cut .010" (weak link)
   Rods:  GM x-rods polished with ARP bolts
   Pistons:  KB106 7cc dish with Sealed Pro moly rings
   Cam:  Crane 216degrees @ .050" both I & E
              .454" lift @ .050"  (poor boost cam)
   Oil pan:  Unknown brand 8 qrt total (welded -10 AN fittings
                  on it from Speedwaymotors.com)
   Oil drain lines: 3/4" mild steel pipe welded to oil pan
                           aprox. 10" of -10 AN Aeroquip S/S line
                            with straight -10 AN fittings
   Head Gasket:  GM .028" composite 
   Heads:  GM 993 76cc 1.94" I, 1.50"E,  fully ported bowls,
                1205 Felpro gasket match, polished chambers
                (junk heads that I put way too much time into)
                piston in the hole .028", yields ~.055" quench
                with  a CR of 8.6:1, complete rebuild
   Intake:  1995 GM LT1 modified for older block,
                 fully aluminum welded for the 993 heads (EGR 
                 ports would leak w/o it.  Fully welded distr. bung)
   Throttble Body:  1995 LT1 GM, no air foil, stock 48mm
    BOV / CBV:  2002 VW Jetta 1.8T (marked Bosch 710N)
                        Same as the Audi P/N.  Audi wanted $60,
                        and VW wanted $40.  Box has Porsche
                        Audi, VW logos on it. Took a while to find it cheap.
    Turbos:  JYard 1987 Nissan 300ZX, They are Garrett 
                   .63 A/R turbines, 60 trim compressors 
                   oil & water cooled.  300ZX wastegates (cast iron)
                   cut off 90 degree elbows, made 1/2" thick
                    plates using T04 gasket (www.atpturbo.com) as
                    a template.
   Exhaust Manifolds:  1986 Chevy Camaro TPI
                                   both are driver's side because
                                   of pass. side bolt holes don't fit
                                   the 993 heads. Cut off orig. outlets
                                  Used 59% nickel 1/8" arc weld rod.
                                  Welded at 400 degrees, cooled in speedy
                                  dry overnight.  Was still 200 degrees the
                                  next morning.  24 hour cool time.
                                  Ported manifolds to match heads
                                  Removed AIR bung bumps in manifolds 
   Exhaust gaskets:  Percy XX carbon composite P/N 68012
                                (new-see their website)
   Downpipes:  Full 3" each side the extends to under the 
                        driver's & passenger's seats. 
   Exhaust:  dual 2.5" with Flowmaster 2.5" mufflers
                   exiting behind rear tires
   Air cleaners:  3.5" pipe from each compressor housing
                        to K&N 3.5" diameter hole, 6"x9" cone
                        All huge but that I had the stuff brand new
                        sitting in the garage.
   Air boxes:    one each side fabricated out of 18 ga. sheetmetal
                       4"x5" hole to open air in front of tires
  compressor pipe:  dual 2.5" from trubo to throttle body
                               custom made TB adapter out of 16 ga. 
                               sheetmetal
  pipe adapters:  silicone with T-bolt clamps (www.atpturbo.com)
                           ALL compressor pipes have a "lip" welded at
                           the end of the pipe so they can't blow away
                           from the silicone hose.  I hate leaks.
  Oil inlet lines:  driver's side tapped from above the oil filter
                         pass. side tapped from behind the intake mnfld.
                         Each line is 1/4" hard steel, 45degre SAE flare
                         Each line has a .060" oil restrictor (atpturbo.com)
  Water lines:  pressure - 3/8" hard steel from the LT1 (offy)
                       coolant box.  return - 3/8" hard steel from the turbo
                       to the water pump 1/2" NPT return port.
                       flex lines - 2 ft of Gates Durion 3/8" silicone heater
                       hose.
  Intercooler: None
  Water Injection:  None, welded in a bung for it though
                              probably add it this winter
  Fuel pump:  Walbro 255lph,  3/8" feed line, 5/16" return
                      custom fuel sending until for 1970 fuel tank
  Injectors: Ford 42 #/hr
  Map Sensor: GM 2-bar
                       All these are 2-bar (www.tomco-inc.com)
                      16009886
                      12569241
                      16254539
                      16040609
                      I bought the 12569241 from gmpartsdirect.com
                      It took a while to find this info.
  ECM:         1992 GM MAP (730) with 1992 Syclone code ($58)
                   DIY-WBO2 sensor with ALDL data logging
                   Stock O2 sensor also installed
                   Each downpipe has two 18MM bungs so each side
                   can be monitored (NAPA 18MM axle nuts $.88 each)
                   They are the same as Edel, Holley, etc)
  Alternator:  GM 12SI - 78 AMP  (need a 108 amp)
  Cool fan:  Flexalite Syclone 16"  (need more cooling)
  Transmission:  TCI TH350 with 2500 - 3000rpm stall
  Rear-end:  GM 10 bolt 4.11 gears
  Tires:  275 15 60 cheap radials  (Coopers??)

It all fits under a stock hood. It took a lot of measuring and adjusting to make that happen. I wish the turbos were more quiet. The CBV (i.e. BOV) returns a lot of air to the 3.5" intake pipe and K&N that is kind of loud. It happens right before it starts to boost. I may try to figure out something to quiet it down. The CBV leak air until boost is seen in the intake. So the air leak is kind of loud, but no louder than the turbos under boost. The factory Nissan wastegates are holding the boost to about 7psi right now under a third gear steady pull. If cruising at less than about 45mph and I do WOT the the trans. will downshift to second gear and it will light the tires and build about 10 psi of boost. It is fun but is going to blow up the engine, trans, or rear end in a hurry. I need to figure out the $58 code wastegate controller stuff this winter. I really want to have the ECM control the wastegates/boost.
The setup took quite while to build (all summer), but is worth it after you see how much power you gain. I have about $1800 into the turbo setup. Doing the trunk mount battery added about $250 to that. I went with 0/3 cable, Moroso Super Duty battery switch......all expensive stuff. I just had to have the best fresh air setup going because of no intercooler. Maybe an intercooler next year if the funds and time are available.

Hope that helps.

obeymybird · 11-07-2005, 10:52 AM

hey junkcltr nice work i was wondering what turbo headers did you use?

PhLaXuS · 11-07-2005, 11:32 AM

Looks great! I'd recommend an intercooler because it'll be more safe and/or have more power, depending on the setup. Try to post an audio clip, if you don't mind.

junkcltr · 11-07-2005, 11:37 AM

Both sides manifolds are 1986 Chevy Camaro driver's side.
The T3 flanges are 1/2" mild steel that I made. The turbo boxes are 5/16" steel that I made. I welded the mild steel with a mig welder. I welded the boxes to the manifolds with an arc welder and nickel rod (see desrciption above).
The manifolds are ported to match the ported heads. I ground off the EGR bung bumps inside the manifolds. The T3 flanges are port matched exactly to the .63 A/R Turbine inlet.

The close up pics below are before the final T3 flange clean-up port work. Both the manifold to head surface andT T3 flanges were hand filed and sand for a true surface (less than .003" irregularity). Nothing leaks. The tabs on the manifold allow for brackets to be bolted to the exhaust studs for added strength. The downpipes have bolt on brackets to the rear exhaust studs and heads so they can't move. I did not use S/S flex pipe on the downpipes. They are held very solid from moving. The brackets were built to hold them from having both side-to-side and front-to-back movement.

The part that hurt the most was buying all new hardware for the manifolds from GM. Total was about $60. $3.50 just for each thick washer. GM studs are cheaper than the GM bolts???

I mainly built this thing for learning about turbos and the GM $58 Syclone code. So looks wasn't really a factor. It was more about doing it on a budget and keeping it durable. It kind of has a "Mad Max" hacker look with all of the lines. The block/engine is nothing fancy. I went with all steel lines because it was cheaper and I could get the bends I needed without having to run clamps every 3 inches.

I had put the complete EFI setup on it last year. The total cost for that was $900. The ECM, wiring harness, LT1 intake were all from the junkyard. I got the GM 24#/hr injectors used off of ebay for $85. I bench tested them and all flowed good. The Ford 42 #/hr injectors I just installed are much louder (clicking) than the GM injectors.

I think the audio is a little out of my league. I don't know if the laptop I have even has a sound card. It is an older win98 thing. I will take a look but can't promise anything.

junkcltr · 11-07-2005, 11:54 AM

I couldn't figure out how to post multiple pics in one post. Here is a few low res. pics of the manifolds

midniteplowboyy · 11-07-2005, 08:59 PM

Excellent work on the turbo manifolds

looks good. I admire custom projects like that, anybody can order parts and put them together.

The_Raven · 11-08-2005, 08:39 AM

That looks really nice, one of the cleanest custom "DD" installations I've seen. I like your use of hard line too, I plan on doing that when I revamp my system in my truck, I used braided and rubber hose/tube, but prefer the look, durability and pefrformance using hard tube. (By "performance" I mean the way the connected components work, I changed from a rubber hose to metal tube for my BOV and noticed much quicker responce from it that also effected the between shifts responce of the engine reactions).

I'll be looking into the 749 $58 bin myself, but will be sticking with the V6 code, since it will be on a V6 still, just a 60* instead of a 90*.

junkcltr · 11-08-2005, 11:23 PM

Some $58 code in a 730 ECM info:

I did some tuning on the $58 code tonight installed in the 730 ECM. It is cool out (about 50 degrees F). I am using the following for ALDL and bin tuning:

Code:

 BIN modifications:  www.nwstp.com SyTy ALDL Def (2/3 Bar)
                               and 58_RR_V14.ecu (DIY-PROM board)
                               with TunerPro v4.0 Free
 ALDL logging:  TunerPro RT v4.0 with the SyTY (749) file
                         that comes with it.

I had some quirks trying to datalog with the win98 laptop computer at first. The problem I had was that I wan't opening the .ads file after I had the log windows open.
Tunerpro V4.0 is working excellent now for both BIN mods and ALDL logging. I also used TunerCat with the $58-B file for some mods because I like the 3D graph layout.

I started with the 1618BBZD (DIY-PROM board) DIY-EFI.ORG and at a DIY-WBO2 patch I founding searching DIY-PROM. It uses the 730 pin F14 (TPS2) as an input and the .ads file included with TP4.0 reports the WBO2 value to the "desired AFR" field in the ALDL field. It works great.

For 730 ECM pin swapping to the $58 code I did the following:
Stock 1992 Camaro 730 MAP ECM harness.
swapped the IAC pins (green/blk swapped with green/wht) and (blue/blk swapped with blue/wht). I don't use TCC so I didn't touch those pins. I also run an optical VSS in the car so that was already an input to the 730 ECM at pin C6 which worked fine with the 730 $8D code. It also works correctly when I dropped in the $58 code. Overall, I only did the IAC pin swap described above.

I use Atmel 29C256 chips that are 32k bytes. Since the $58 code is only 16k bytes I had to "bin stack". I did this by using the MS-DOS command "copy /b 16k.bin+16k.bin 32k.bin. This takes the 16k bins and stores them together as one file called "32k.bin". It works great. I did have one ZIF socket problem that took a few hours to figure out. I wore out my ZIF socket in the ECM and had to install another one.

I changed some stuff in the stock BBZB bin for this app. I changed the BPC vs. EGR to values of 100 for the whole table (355ci with 42 #/hr injectors). I reduced the closed throttle VE table by .9. I changed the ALDL idle rpm to 800. I changed the normal idle rpm to 750rpm. I changed the spark base angle to 6 degrees. The V8 fuel cutoff was changed to cut off at 5800rpm and resume at 5600 rpm. I left ALL non-idle spark and VE tables as BBZB stock.

The idle fluctuates but is driveable. I recorded BLMs from 134 to 145. So the VE tables are lean in general. I did two passes rolling into the throttle in third gear from 50ish to 90ish mph. I built up to 7psi of boost at 5000rpm. The ALDL data showed the WBO2 was reading about 11.3 to 10:1 AFR. Lower AFR at higher rpm. So it is rich under boost which is good for now.
I need to get the idle stabilized and the part throttle BLMs better and then move on to WOT AFR. Then on to the spark tables and then back to the VE tables over and over until it is right. Overall, the $58 code is great and Tunerpro 4.0 is great for ALDL and BIN mods. No detonation at all........but it is 50 degrees outside.

J

junkcltr · 11-10-2005, 12:10 AM

I messed with the Nissan wastegates tonight to try and turn the boost down. I picked up an air pressure regulator at Home Depot because the one I had croaked. I attached the output of the regulator to a wastegate with a Tee to the Auto Meter boost gauge in the car for an accurate reading.

I found that the left wastegate starts to open at 6.2psi and is fully open at 11.2 psi. The right wastegate starts to open at 7psi and is fully open at 12psi. I decided to adjust the wastegate rod ends. I had soaked them all summer with PB Blaster but it didn't help. Even with heat both rods snapped at the rod end junction. I drilled and tapped the rod ends and welded threaded rod onto the actuator side so it is like factory only with new threads.

I set the rod ends 3 full turns out from fully closed. That is, with the actuator closed and the wastegate valve closed. This should give less boost. The valves are now about 1/8" open when the actuators are completely closed. I think it will probably spool slower now though. True??

Anyone know the right way to calibrate/adjust the wastegates?
Or even how they did it on their setup?

J

(edited - wastegate fully closed valve opening from 1/4" to 1/8")

junkcltr · 11-11-2005, 01:27 AM

I am wondering how the aftermarket rates their wastegates. Is a "6psi setting" when the wastegate starts to open or is fully open?

I checked the stock SAAB/Volvo wastegates. They start to open at about 2.5psi and are fully open at 12psi.......in case any one else uses them.

J

Z69 · 11-11-2005, 05:10 AM

Neither I think.
That's what it's rated to control at.
The spring pressure is balanced against the boost pressure.
That's why some run those little homemade manual boost controllers and set them to x. The manual set up won't allow pressure to open till say 5psi or whatever. Which makes the gate stay shut and speeds up spool time.
Sometimes exh pressure can open the gate anyway.
Stock 7.3 fords have this problem up around 25psi.
The port size of the gate has some affect to.
If your gate is too small for the cid you'll get boost creep too.

Does your email work? I sent you something.

junkcltr · 11-11-2005, 04:22 PM

The aftermarkets say things like "XXX spring = 6psi", "YYY spring = 9psi", etc. Assuming the XXX spring, does this mean the valve starts to open at 6psi, or is it fully open at 6psi?

The spring pressure is just Force = K_spring * X_distance. So the PSI balances the spring as you said. It is the X_distance thing I am wondering about. Is the 6psi for X_distance = 0, or is it for X_distance fully compressed??

I will find out this weekend if the car has "boost creep". I haven't driven it that hard yet because the VE tables need quite a bit of work. Timing seems OK....very little advance overall.

I forgot the password to that email account. I will get the password in a few hours and check it.

junkcltr · 11-11-2005, 05:20 PM

I just logged into that account and it complained and said something about not using it enough. I got into it and it said I have 0 messages. I don't know what happened. It seems to have trashed everything.

junkcltr · 11-14-2005, 11:47 PM

I measured for an intercooler tonight. I had my heart set on a Ford PowerStroke IC, but it isn't gonna happen. I am thinking of going with two Volvos welded together in parallel. I think that would give decent efficiency and psi drops.
Any one running a Volvo intercooler? How do you like it?

J

junkcltr · 11-22-2005, 10:15 AM

Three SAAB intercoolers seem to fit the hole nice. They should flow enough air for 500hp @ .5-2psi pressure drop. That is a guess from what I found searching the web and turbomustangs.com.

midniteplowboyy · 11-25-2005, 05:30 PM

I have a couple of saab intercoolers also I'm going to try, sorry cant say how well they work, still building my engine.
You ask about my turbos, I have the BBS Designs kit,

on turbos
garrett
p/n 466800-0005
s/n gl18393w
model # tbo3
m24 a/r.42 ec-3 compressor housing
a/r 48 turbine housing

Thats really all I know about them, the 60 trim part I found on his website. His headers are a high quality, heavy duty and freekin heavy, a little overkill for a car, but I can live with that

lol. Should not have any problems out of them.

Sorry for my ignorance, Ive been around turbos all my life (diesels though), but I dont know much about them, sizing, etc. and building a gasoline setup.

Hope everyone had a good turkey day!

Hows your project coming along junkcltr?

junkcltr · 11-25-2005, 10:20 PM

Yeah, the BBS kits look nice. Interesting, all of the junkyard Garrett T03 turbos marked .48 A/R turbine and .42 A/R compressor I find are either 40 trim or 45 trim. He must be having them custom made or off of an application I have not come across. What is the diameter of the compressor inducer?
You won't see the boost gauge hit 30psi like you do in the diesel trucks.

The snow came so the Camaro is sitting right now. I have the intercoolers cut apart and I am ordering some sheet aluminum next week. I started on the twin turbo pick-up truck a few nights ago. I should have the exhaust manifolds done this weekend. This project will be a lot easier than the Camaro. I got two Volvo intercoolers and a couple of oil&water cooled .42 A/R comp, .48 A/R T3 garretts for it out of the junkyard. The 130K+ mile stock 305ci TPI that is in could use a little more power. Since the car is off the road I need something with boost code in it to mess with.
I think it should be done by Christmas.
J