Power AdderGetting a Supercharger or Turbocharger? Thinking about using Nitrous? All forced induction and N2O topics discussed here.
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well the decision has been made, as of today my rs is no longer a street car.
ive decided to do a real serious build,im still going to use my current engine/drivetrain setup,except im gonna turn the car into a purpose built drag car.
as to give u an idea were im going with this
target car wieght is gonna be 2,700-2,800 pounds
automatic trans
back halfed/4 link rear suspension/mini tub'ed ( for future sbc if i so decide to go that route )
fiberglass doors and lexan windows
the engine is going to be my 3.3L 60* v6 except im going to bump compression back up to 11.0-1+ with aluminum heads
the car will be alky injected with megasquirt ems.
and a single garrett gt40r turbo
anyways im hoping to have this semi completed/finished by late summer
and as i work on this ill be posting pics starting this weekend, with the gutting of the car and removal of the rear floor section
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Awesome. Is there any advantage or real reason why your sticking with a 3.1 block? Sounds like you want to make power. Not criticizing at all just curious why not a Turbo3.8 motor.
Awesome. Is there any advantage or real reason why your sticking with a 3.1 block? Sounds like you want to make power. Not criticizing at all just curious why not a Turbo3.8 motor.
Because turbo 3.8s suck ***. There's way too much hype over them.
*flame suit on*
I'd much rather build a 660, for many reasons, including the available aluminium heads, even firing order (without weakening the crank), among others.
There are people that have made 350+ HP on a stock 3400, yes I know those are FWD engines, but many if not all the parts can be used in a RWD.
Thumbs up. Awesome seeing someone push a v6 to the limits. Go stomp some GN and V8 ars.
How much bost you plan to run goin with 11.0:1 comp. I know it really doesnt matter being a Alky Inj. setup.
Id like to know the adv. of High Comp. and Alky Vs 7.5-8:1 and gobs of boost and say a akly/water injection kit.
well just a few things are alky runs cooler,much higher octane rating compared to race gas.
take 2 identical motors, one at 8.5-1 cr with 12 psi and one at 11.0-1 with 5 psi they woill make the same power, not at that boost psi split but u get were im going.
higher cr always makes more power,running the alky will allow me to up my cr and still run tons of boost,way more then i could on gasoline
as far as how much boost ill run i dont know yet,prolly 14 psi range maybe more
im looking at 2 classes right now
super pro which is 7.50 - 10.99 brackets
or super street which runs on a 10.90 index
both of wich allows turbos/superchargers and alcohol as fuel
though super street i belive lets me drop down to a min wieght of 2,000 pounds(though i doubt i could get the car this light) i have to get a current rule book though, mines a year or 2 old at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
Awesome. Is there any advantage or real reason why your sticking with a 3.1 block? Sounds like you want to make power. Not criticizing at all just curious why not a Turbo3.8 motor.
i already have 2 complete bored .080 over 3.1's assembled and ready to go.and i want to keep the motor the car came with.i.e no swaps,everyone dogs on the lil v6 motors.besides the look on ppls faces when they see whats under the hood is priceless
lol @ 40 psi id throw the crankshaft out the botttom of the block, if the block even held together
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstfirebird
I like! You know my next motor is going to be 11:1 . Are you going back with the RWD pistons to get 11:!?
yeah dished -12 cc pistons, with 25 cc chamber heads it actually works out around 12.0-1 which is good cause it will get that massive turbo spooling up earlier
but i hit my first snag today
I CANT BRING MYSELF TO CUT UP THE RS lol i tried but had to put down the sawzall and plasma cutter
lol im still gonna do this though,im gonna be getting a rolling chassi from a friend to build instead, ill just transfer over all my stuff to it, and ill still have the other motor for the rs. basically ill end up with one 3.3L turbo motor in the rs that runs on gas as a street car, and the other motor will end up in the new car on alky as a race car
The chambers are 27cc (3400 heads). With 12cc pistons and .030 over will give you less than 12:1. The CR calculator on the 60* site is good for this .
I'm glad you didn't cut up a decent body, though!
yeah man i was starting to take it apart, then id sit and stare at it for about 20 mins,work a lil more,stare some more.then i finally sshook my head sighed and decided i couldnt cut her up.id miss driving the car on the street to much.
kinda good though ciase the roller im getting i really wont car about, so u can bet ur *** im gonna go crazy with it as far as lightning panels and such
I plan on staying with the idea of high compression, it didn't take long for you to answer that one though, lol.
So in the new car, are you planning on using a tubular K, and all the other goodies?
EDIT: Did you win the gt40?
no seriously i dont have any, i never got forged fwd pistons,though i woudl have eventually lol.
i dont know about the tubular k member,noone makes one for the v6,though a v8 one could be modified pretty easily.i may just make the center piece of the stock kmember removable(replace it with a bolt in piece of cromoly tubing)i am gonna backhalf the car though,rear frame rails,4 link/coilovers,im gonan keep the car on a 9-10.5 inch slick, other then that its just gonna be a rollcage,and any saftery equip i need,though im still trying to see if i can get an sfi balancer,and fllywheel.
the flywheel im pretty sure i can get,the sfi balancer may be a problem though
other then that and some other basic stuff,im gonna lighten the hell out of the car, if it dont make it faster, or make it run,and isnt needed for saftey its getting removed and thrown the hell out,
I know what you mean as far as finding race parts for the 60*
I also thought $2k was high, but it sure did look sweet. Building it isn't the hard part, building it right will be (although you have access to some good equipment unlike the rest of us avg joes,lol).
well im at the shop today working on the engines, ive swaped out the iron heads for my aluminum heads, cr now sits at 12.7-1 up from my 9.1-1 i had originally built the motor with.
now im working on my custom intake manifold, ill get a few pics up in about an hour or so, or whenever i get finished welding the plenum to the runners
btw if anyone has huge injectors they wanna sell pm me, im in need of some massive injectors to run this thing on alky
well im at the shop today working on the engines, ive swaped out the iron heads for my aluminum heads, cr now sits at 12.7-1 up from my 9.1-1 i had originally built the motor with.
now im working on my custom intake manifold, ill get a few pics up in about an hour or so, or whenever i get finished welding the plenum to the runners
btw if anyone has huge injectors they wanna sell pm me, im in need of some massive injectors to run this thing on alky
They also have to be Alky injectors, the alky will ruin the gas seals in the gas injectors.
i got the heads swaped and mounted the new manifold, well the manifold wouldnt sit right,thinking it was warped i put it in the bridgeport and took off .010, well the manifold was flat. turns out my driver side head was twisted.
the end near the firewall was rolled out.so the manifold would not seal.
new heads are on the way.
i also just finished ordering up my new fuel system, the dam thing cost just about as much as my entire engine minus the turbo
just about 1,000$'s just in a pump regulator and an lines its safe to say my pump and regulator will never be to small, the pump is good for 2-200 psi and 3,000 pph @ 60 psi
and some 120# msd competion injectors
im a lil worried that the injectors may be a lil small but there the biggest i can find so there gonna have to do.
whats really gonna suck is mounting that pump down low may interfere with the 3 inch downpipe going out the passenger side
actually my uncles shop paid for the fuel system, thats why i said sorta a sponsorship, its more of atax writeoff for next year though lol.
the shop owns the car
i just wanted to update this one final time, i sold the car/along with the turbo system, and a spare built motor/trans.
i still have the alky motor/turbosetup/fuel system for that motor and my ms ems.
i did get a good chunk of change for it all.im not going to continue this project anytime soon,as i feel the money is better off being saved for my newborn daughter.
i will however in the future purchase another car to complete this project.propably an iroc. that ill swap the v6 into.
They are heavy arcaiac dinosaurs that even GM is no longer supporting, and have decided to develope the 660.
The 660 has a better design overall, for smooth running, especially with it's completly even fire set-up, that the 3.8 didn't get until later, yes it was mid '80s, but it definatly didn't start that way.
The 3800sc makes 220 HP (S1) 240 HP (S2) and 270 HP (IIRC S3), the N/A 3400 makes 205 HP, put a turbo on it even running about 5 or 6 PSI in stock form makes over 300 HP, in most cases, There are not many SC 3400s, but the ones I have seen or rather read about seem to be making about the same between 280 and 300 HP, with less displacment than the 38700, also is a lighter package, the 3400 ready run is about 330 lbs, the 3800 N/A (apples to apples) I remember being closer to 400 lbs, like 390ish, and that boat achor (N/A) was only rated at 180 HP. The SC I believe weghed just a few lbs more.
Now comparing same vehicles, there are a few 3800 swapped 2nd gen J-bodies, all seem to run about 13.5 to maybe a high 12 (Frank "being the only exception at an 11.90 with a turbo N/A based 3800, stripped out interior, slicks and skinnies), where as there have been a few more turbo 3400 swapped J-bodies run low 13s to low 12s, with stock internals, and a simple turbo system added to the engine swap, and street trim, including full interior, most of the time street tires, and driven to and from the track. there is a very member here, 89jyturbo, that has a 3400 swapped J-body and a remote mount turbo running low 12s, he had stock internals until a skirt let go on a piston, now has Wiseco forged pistons.
Far too many people have fallen into the "3800SC is good" trap, simply because it's factory supercharged, oh big deal, what people forget about is what little power it makes for the displacment and weight of the engine, compared to other readily available engines, that can be found usually in better condition and for cheaper.
About the only the 3800 seems to have that is anything good is an ablity to make decent torque, but the weight negats any adavantage here due to the "extra torque" being wasted moving that heavier engine.
Last edited by Six_Shooter; 05-04-2007 at 01:37 AM.
I was talking about the LC2 motor and I thought that is what you were talking about also. I apologize for the confusion.
If the LC2 is the RWD variant, it also fits in the same class IMO, just by association. I don't believe much was changed between the FWD and RWD 3800, internally anyway, I realize the block is cast a bit different and the intake is different but they are essentially the same.
If the LC2 is the RWD variant, it also fits in the same class IMO, just by association. I don't believe much was changed between the FWD and RWD 3800, internally anyway, I realize the block is cast a bit different and the intake is different but they are essentially the same.
the turbo buick engine from the GN and TTA(coughfastestthirdgencough) that made 250 hp and 340 ft/lbs?
If the LC2 is the RWD variant, it also fits in the same class IMO, just by association. I don't believe much was changed between the FWD and RWD 3800, internally anyway, I realize the block is cast a bit different and the intake is different but they are essentially the same.
Ehhh, maybe one should keep experience to what they know instead of forming misconceptions and spreading ignorance. The 3.8L V6 was a very good motor, there have been more then a few stock short block hell even stock long block Buick 6es in the 10s, that's a lot more then 350hp. I've got a buddy with one that's over 1/4 million and near 300K miles on the short block, he sprays it and runs high boost on it. The GN/T-Type motors can take lots of power stock, and the only real mods to it are a rolled fillet crank and the pistons.
If you look at the 60 degree motor it has some newer technology on it's side, besides not being made from a "cut down" V8, probably the biggest reasons GM furthered it's development are the compactness and the lower vibration.
GM's keept the 3800 around a few more years because people are demanding it over the 3.5/3.6L motors. That says something IMHO. The 3800 is a VERY different motor from the 3.8L Buick even though it's based on it, the deck height has been shortened 2 or 3 times, in order to make it more compact. The heads are different on the later engines, hell even the 80s FWD motors, they're better then the old castings especially since they didn't have wedge chambers. The last generation of 3800s made 200hp btw. GM's also never made one with aluminum heads like the 60 degree motors.
When talking a motor swap into a FWD car a lot more then the motor comes into play, suspension and power handling capabilities are imparative. There are some guys in GTPs doing mid-low 13s with a cat back, pulley and chip, and they weigh significantly more then a swapped J-body. Since the motor also never came stock in a J-body, it also is a less common swap with significantly more work. With a larger pool of people the law of odds says you'll have more successes.
I don't understand the "not being made from a cut down V8" comment. From what I understand the 3.8/3800 was not derived from this, though loosly based on a buick V8 at the time, or rather a previous idea from the buick division.
Yeah, the early generation of 3400s Ok, not much has changed in the years of the production of the 3400s, except some minor updates, make 200 to 205 HP, depending on the chassis it's in, exhaust and intake difference have this effect, so tell me how this is a "good point" for a 3800 making 200 HP? *shrug*
"People keep asking for it", because they believe these old dinosaurs are somehow good, people don't like change and like to work with what they already know, instead of embracing new designs that are more effciant and better packaged.
I looked at the 3.8, 3800 and tried to find good points about it that would make it a worth while swap and nothing stands out as being worth the effort, using a newer 660 or at least parts from the newer 660 will either bolt in or just about in, in place of the 2.8, or parts of that 2.8, and have overall, better effciancy and power than the effort to swap a 3800 inplace of the 2.8.
I don't understand the "not being made from a cut down V8" comment. From what I understand the 3.8/3800 was not derived from this, though loosly based on a buick V8 at the time, or rather a previous idea from the buick division.
Yeah, the early generation of 3400s Ok, not much has changed in the years of the production of the 3400s, except some minor updates, make 200 to 205 HP, depending on the chassis it's in, exhaust and intake difference have this effect, so tell me how this is a "good point" for a 3800 making 200 HP? *shrug*
"People keep asking for it", because they believe these old dinosaurs are somehow good, people don't like change and like to work with what they already know, instead of embracing new designs that are more effciant and better packaged.
I looked at the 3.8, 3800 and tried to find good points about it that would make it a worth while swap and nothing stands out as being worth the effort, using a newer 660 or at least parts from the newer 660 will either bolt in or just about in, in place of the 2.8, or parts of that 2.8, and have overall, better effciancy and power than the effort to swap a 3800 inplace of the 2.8.
Actually the 3.8L V6 traces it's history back to the Buick 215 Fireball V8. It really is a V8 with two cylinder removed just like the 4.3L is.
Last 3.4L I pulled apart had roller rockers in it, hardly a "minor" update to me not to mention the better valve angles then a 3.8L head among other things like that.
The 3800 is a good design. It's simple to work on which is more then I can say for the 3400 I did, having to mess with the valvetrain to change a shoddily designed intake gasket is not my idea of a good time. (blame dexcool if you like, but the gasket was quite cracked) and this was at about 70K. If it would have been a 3800 the valve covers would have never needed to come off among other things. New is not always better when it comes to design; if you look at a lot of things they're still done the same way they were 100 years ago, or with minimal modifications. Besides that when they did the Turbo Trans Ams in 89 they used a 3.8L not a 60 degree motor, and it was 276 under rated hp.
because they believe these old dinosaurs are somehow good
Again, I hope to God you aren't talking about the LC2 (Grand National motor). If you are, I would be happy to show you what an old dinosaur could do if you wanna come over to Detroit. We have a lot of "old dinosaur" grand nationals that would love to show you their tails.
I don't believe much was changed between the FWD and RWD 3800, internally anyway, I realize the block is cast a bit different and the intake is different but they are essentially the same. 
