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Where do I get one? I have a brand new ATI fmu for a mustang application. I believe we're talking 12:1. I need something around 6:1. Anyone have any ideas where I can get the recalibration kit?
-- Joe
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So I'd feel silly buying another, especially if you wanted more money.. If you'll sell it for the same price I paid for that one ($42) I'll do it if it's a 6:1 and pick it up in Kingston, NH
Please don't fuel your car with a FMU... Get a correct programmer and fuel it with the ECM and correct size injectors. A FMU is a great way to ruin a engine.
~Scott
Please don't fuel your car with a FMU... Get a correct programmer and fuel it with the ECM and correct size injectors. A FMU is a great way to ruin a engine.
~Scott
Scott,
I ran $58, $60 code on a boosted setup for years, different head units, boost levels, injectors, and motor combinations.
With that said.. That code absolutely sucks. the 2-bar stuff has no resolution, the idle code blows. It's horrible on a manual specifically. I worked with Bruce for a long time, tinkering and modding. I'll never go back.
Plus, the "boost fueling" on $58/$60/$59 is just a PW mutiplier based on
KPA. It still has a 20-100kpa VE table, not to 190k like you'd think. And because the map sensor is only 0-2.5v for the 2-100kpa, the resolution sucks with a big cam.
$8D is nice. And for only 6psi the fmu should be fine.
If someone releases an $8D code with a BPW adder that uses a second map sensor for >100kpa use, I'll use that. Otherwise the FMU is superior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcpoland
Air bleed dosen't affect ratio. I will be home till about 1pm today. Home all day tomorrow.
Gary
Kingston, NH
Thats what I was told.
PM me your phone # and address and i'll be up before 1.
I woulda responded to this sooner, but I work nights on friday until 1am so I sleep in saturday
Thanks!
-- Joe
Last edited by anesthes; 03-22-2008 at 11:04 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Sounds like you've had alot of tuning with the Stock ECM's. Most people don't have that background. I use Code 59 on my wife's Typhoon with the wideband integral hookup and Tuner Pro. I like the system and have had great success. I use FAST on my Buick 3.8L 86 Camaro engine.
I don't like FMU's for the fact it's hard to tune with and does not tend to fuel right under varied operating conditions and temps.
Everyone has their own way of doing things. If the FMU's working for you that's great. I'll personally never touch anyone's car that has one.
Couldn't you have switched to a Sy/Ty ecm that's capible of 3bar and done Real-time tuning with Tuner Pro like I've got? The stuff from Moates is cheap and it's quick to work with.
There's been several guy's with TPI ect that's gone to the Sy/Ty ecm. Maf-less setup.
Sounds like you've had experience on some code's that I've not played with.
~Scott
Couldn't you have switched to a Sy/Ty ecm that's capible of 3bar and done Real-time tuning with Tuner Pro like I've got? The stuff from Moates is cheap and it's quick to work with.
I did. If you look back, I did the original $58 '749 faqs, and a lot of testing. I also beta tested and worked with Bruce on the $60 code. The sy/ty is the $58 code. I've got both '730 and '749 ecms on the shelf.
The problem with the sy/ty stuff is the resolution of using a 2, or worse, 3 bar map sensor. You have a range of 20-190kpa that can only be represented over 5 volts.
Next problem is the idle code, and its support for manual transmission. Both are horrible.
The code works fine on a lot of stock combos, but it was driving me insane.
It's a catch-22. The $58/$59 has a BPW adder for boost, and a 0-190 (2-bar) spark table. Since I always locked my advance in at 100kpa, the advance table was useless. And since the boost fuel adder is just a BPW adder, it's doing almost the same job as the FMU anyhow.
There are some additional tables, but for the most part $58/$59 is archaic.
How much power are you trying to support with the Stock ECM?
There's a point to which your better off just going aftermarket.
There should be no problem supporting a 10-11sec V6 (in my world) Sy/Ty Combo. The wife's Ty will run in the 11's this year. Many others with stock ECM's and 59 running 10-11's.
If your planning on making over 600hp there's no sense in running the old ECM's. That's why I went to the FAST system on the Camaro. Much easier to tune and easier to work with.
I wouln't mind reading more on what you'd posted on the topic... where can I find that info...
Thanks,Scott~
How much power are you trying to support with the Stock ECM?
There's a point to which your better off just going aftermarket.
There should be no problem supporting a 10-11sec V6 (in my world) Sy/Ty Combo. The wife's Ty will run in the 11's this year. Many others with stock ECM's and 59 running 10-11's.
If your planning on making over 600hp there's no sense in running the old ECM's. That's why I went to the FAST system on the Camaro. Much easier to tune and easier to work with.
I wouln't mind reading more on what you'd posted on the topic... where can I find that info...
Thanks,Scott~
Just search $58 and my username. Some of it is on the stickys in the diy_prom board.
The vette is about 500 crank HP with the 6psi powerdyne (on paper, no dyno).
Ok heres what I'll do for now. I'll leave the FMU vac line disconnected, so it won't add. I'll set my rail pressure to 60psi with the 30# injectors. 500hp with a BSFC of .55 should need about 46gph of fuel flow, which the HP255 pump will deliver 51gph at 60psi. 30# injectors at 60psi will deliver 51gph at 90% duty cycle. So I'll drop in the $60 code into the ECM and run it for a few weeks. If it pisses me off again, I'll remove the 2-bar map and drop $8D back in, and connect the FMU line, drop rail pressure down to 45psi and re-tune. The only problem is I'll probably need a booster pump as the FMU will boost pressure up to 81psi. To support 51gph at 81psi i'll need an inline booster pump as the volume will go down as pressure goes up. At 81psi the HP255 pump will only deliver 41gph by itself.
Gary, doesn't the bleed screw lower the slope of the curve set by the calibration ring, while softening the transition in the curve though....?
__________________ 1998 Trans Am: Mystic Blue w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Daily Driver.... 1990 Trans Am GTA: Black w/Black Leather, 5-Speed, T-Tops, Few Mods.... 1989 Trans Am TTA: White w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Garage Queen.... 1986 Chevy Camaro V6: Blue w/Black Cloth, Hardtop, 355-TPI Swap, 700R4, MS-II....
I do want to make sure a few facts and/or my own take on things are said though.
1 thing to clear up, code59 has extended the VE table to include up to 30psi of boost. So it no longer is just a multiplier but a full fuel table. The multiplier is still there but with the full VE table really isn't used or adjusted much if any.
$58/$60 you are correct they are just a multiplier for boost, which is a bandaid for sure.
But isn't a FMU just a mechanical multiplier anyways? As you said a multiplier is not the right way to do it.
The resolution is the same as any aftermarket ecu using a 3 bar sensor. If you do the math the resolution is about 1.2 kpa. If your needing more resolution than that you have a tuning skills way beyond what a FMU could handle also.
2 bar sensor is about .8Kpa.
As far as idle $58/60 are not great there either, but remember the extended VE table, it now includes down to 400 rpm and doesn't include 2 different tables (unless you want 2 tables).
So yes I will agree 58 had some faults, but 60 has addressed and will continue to address them.
You can run up to 65lb/hr injectors with the stock ECM now with the new style injectors. (we run them in our TY)
Stock Typhoons have 33lb/hrs. (Same bore/stroke as sbc)
I'd put at least 50lb/hrs in. Your 255lr/hr pump will keep up. GN guy's run 10's with the warbro.
Try the Code 59 again as Ty1295 suggested. He runs a Twin Turbo SBC with Code 59 on the stock Ty ECM. www.code59.org for latest info.
There is seperate idle peramters in it as I've adjusted them on the Ty.
You should not have a Tight (106) LCA Cam with boost anyway. Your idle would be no different than Park/N on the Ty's.
Just throwing some ideas your way. Supporting 6psi should be no problem.
What's your Wide band been doing?
~Scott
I do want to make sure a few facts and/or my own take on things are said though.
1 thing to clear up, code59 has extended the VE table to include up to 30psi of boost. So it no longer is just a multiplier but a full fuel table. The multiplier is still there but with the full VE table really isn't used or adjusted much if any.
$58/$60 you are correct they are just a multiplier for boost, which is a bandaid for sure.
But isn't a FMU just a mechanical multiplier anyways? As you said a multiplier is not the right way to do it.
The resolution is the same as any aftermarket ecu using a 3 bar sensor. If you do the math the resolution is about 1.2 kpa. If your needing more resolution than that you have a tuning skills way beyond what a FMU could handle also.
2 bar sensor is about .8Kpa.
As far as idle $58/60 are not great there either, but remember the extended VE table, it now includes down to 400 rpm and doesn't include 2 different tables (unless you want 2 tables).
So yes I will agree 58 had some faults, but 60 has addressed and will continue to address them.
I agree with everything you said. The reason I said I'd go with the FMU was because the better $8D code with the FMU is better than $58.
The $59 stuff sounds good too, but the resolution problems have not been corrected. And as far as I know, nobody has imported the more superior fueling code or idle routines, manual dfco, etc from $8D.
I agree, even the aftermarket stuff has bad resolution with 2-bar map sensors. Which is why the $59 project should run a full scale 1-bar map on one input, and a 2/3bar map on the second input for "while in boost".. It should have a full 100kpa VE table, and an additional >100kpa table for when the map crosses a threshold and the 2nd map signal is referenced. This would fix a lot of things.
You can run up to 65lb/hr injectors with the stock ECM now with the new style injectors. (we run them in our TY)
You talking about lowZ injectors? A '749 can only drive 4 of them. If your talking 'new style' highZ injectors, whats the min pw they can run at?
When I built the 358 with the S-trim, I tried 42# injectors but I couldn't get the idle pw lower than 1.2msec, the injectors would fire unreliably in batch mode. Andd quasi fueling on $58 is kinda a "sometimes works, sometimes doesnt" type of thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UR50SLO
Stock Typhoons have 33lb/hrs. (Same bore/stroke as sbc)
I'd put at least 50lb/hrs in. Your 255lr/hr pump will keep up. GN guy's run 10's with the warbro.
Apples and oranges. 8 50# injectors at 43.5psi and 90% dc is 60gph of fuel. Way more power than I'm making. 6 50# injectors at the same pressure (grand national) is 45gph. Same as me running 8 30# injectors at 60psi
Quote:
Originally Posted by UR50SLO
Try the Code 59 again as Ty1295 suggested. He runs a Twin Turbo SBC with Code 59 on the stock Ty ECM. www.code59.org for latest info.
I imagine $59 is based on $60? I read a little of the website. 3-bar stuff has even worse resolution than $60 2bar. Unless they have a 2-bar scaled version I'm not sure I'm interested. Also, my tunercat $60 TDF won't work with it I imagine (since its different), and although tunerpro is nice I'd still rather use tunercat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UR50SLO
There is seperate idle peramters in it as I've adjusted them on the Ty.
You should not have a Tight (106) LCA Cam with boost anyway. Your idle would be no different than Park/N on the Ty's.
Just throwing some ideas your way. Supporting 6psi should be no problem.
What's your Wide band been doing?
~Scott
I hear ya. I'll give it ($60) a whirl again for fun.
$59 isn't based on $60 at all. I believe when bruce did $60 he stripped or removed some things also.
$59 is really $58 but with a lot of flags and new features. You can actually with just flags make it run just like $58 so we didn't remove anything, just added to it.
The big ones are the bigger VE table, and allowing you to not used the 2 VE tables for open/closed throttle. This seems to have helped idle on the syty as most people didn't have these 2 table synced properly.
Which goes to the point of jumping from 1 bar to 3 bar at 100kpa etc. To do this could cause some issues of its own if not synced right.
$59 has its own definition file for tunerpro, although if you have the editor for tunercat and wanted to make a def. file for tunercat nothing to prevent that. Easy enough to reverse the tunerpro def. file and make the changes show up.
Right now we only support a 3 bar. If the world was full of free time and motivation we would add support for all sensors. But we have fruit that is hanging lower right now we want to address next before adding 2 bar support.
I understand your feeding 2 more injectors than us. What I'm getting at with the injectors is that you won't need to run as much DC with larger injectors to acheive the AFR at WOT that you would with smaller injectors.
Running a 1-1 ratio to boost uses alot less (total) line pressure and is easier on the entire system.
I run the skinny weird looking High Imp. Injectors on the Typhoon.(65's)
Ty1295 runs 84lb/hr (8of them) with the drivers changed for the bigger injectors. There's no difference in a batch system when you hook up 6 or 8.
He recently found that there's actually 2 seperate drivers in the Sy/Ty ecm's that you could run 4 on one and 4 on the other. GM had it setup to drive 6 off one driver. He's got it setup that way on his truck. (split)
I'll be doing the same 3/3 on ours this summer.
TurboDig/Ty1295 and all the guys that have done beta testing like I have and gave feedback and testing on Code59 have put alot of spare time effort into the programming.
I've learned alot from these guys and I'm sure they'd be able to get you dialed in.
Are you running a wideband in the car? Is it hooked up with your stock ECM??
~Scott
Ps... I'm not trying to be a smart *** or a know it all....(hard to tell in type) Trying to help since it sounds like you've got alot of knowldge and time into tuning your car and have not gotten the results your looking for.
I was told that screw has nothing to do with the ratio...
Please elaborate!
-- Joe
Ok, essentially there is a piston in the bottom of the FMU that blocks off the return side of the fuel system raising the fuel pressure. That piston gets pushed in front of the return port of the FMU by boost pushing down on the diaphram above the piston. The air bleed screw makes it to where you can let the full amount of boost coming through the reference line take full effect on the diaphram, or you can loosen the air bleed screw to bleed off some of the boost coming through the reference line creating less of an effect on the diaphram. How far the piston pushes down closing off the return port of the FMU determines how far it raises the fuel pressure.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes
Who knows. ATI won't even talk to you unless you have a serial# of a kit you bought, and if you modify something your really on your own. They suck.
Vs Vortech, who no matter what I call about they'll answer every question.
--Joe
ATI used to be bad about that, but they'll talk to everybody now. Staffing used to be the issue.
Last edited by KS91Z28; 03-25-2008 at 05:04 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
