Power AdderGetting a Supercharger or Turbocharger? Thinking about using Nitrous? All forced induction and N2O topics discussed here.
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Should be firing tomorrow. Need one powersteering belt and need to put dizzy/plug wires back in, as well as some band clamps for the air intake filters/etc
Exhaust is not on yet. Hope that goes smoothly tomorrow
Time? Oh its been 9 months and it aint fired up yet. Lots of time yes.
Dyno/track? haha soon as i can. Last year the 383 had about 100 miles on it before i hit the track a few times. Then immediately dyno'd it. This motor should be no different really.
SO Come on did you fire it? Do you have video, OH Crap my keyboard just took a digger (probably from me drooling on it waiting to see the video of this thing running). Hope everything goes well. Awesome build.
Later, Garrett
__________________ 1984 Z/28 Camaro, 406c.i. (383 Horse, 456 Torque) 13.6 1/4 mile, sold 11/25/01
1982 Z/28 Camaro, 355c.i. (419 Horse, 406 Torque) 12.9 1/4 mile, sold 5/28/02
1980 T / A Firebird, 400c.i. (150 Horse, 400 Torque ) T-tops, WS6, sold 7/23/02
1991_B4C_Camaro, 350c.i. (260 Horse, 365 Torque) 14.2 1/4 mile, sold 1/25/03.
1967_SC__Camaro, 302c.i. being built right now, Turbo 400, and a 3.73 disc rear.
1980 El Camino SS, 350c.i. w/ a Garrett Turbo @ 10psi
1975 Monza Spyder 262c.i. V-8, Full fiberglass body, 13.6 1/4 mile, sold 5/28/03.
1991___Formula___ 350c.i. Hypertech Chip, K&N Filters, B&M Shift kit, and loaded.
R.I.P. Dale Earnhardt
(If Richard Petty was the King, Dale Earnhardt was G0D)
Fired it up today. Didnt go smoothly but it was running for a few minutes.
Wont run without holding the pedal down abit to keep it going and its idling very rich. Need to tweak my fueling alot but I cant quite figure it all out yet. Ran the battery dead trying to start the car up so many times.
Once i can get it running ok I can set base timing but i just havent been able to get it down yet with this Code 59 and 80 lb injectors.
I can tell you for the few seconds it was running, it sounds amazing! Definately not as quiet as I thought it as gonna be with a 9 to 1 compression motor with turbos in the exhaust path. It sounds sorta like it did before with the 383 just not as lopey.
just trying to get it running right. having issues with code $59 that seem to be more electrical wiring related than actual code stuff. Still havent driven the car except for in the driveway. sounds good, just needs tuned and i'm having difficulty. Honestly didnt expect it to be so difficult. I'm new to the whole map sensor stuff and especially this code 59. Just learning whats all what in this code
Just got back home from Houston... i had to visit for 2 weeks. I got a new ecm to try but wont get to that til tomorrow sometime. its suppose to storm tho so i'm not sure what I can do tomorrow
Yeah i tried the new ecm but that didnt work, so i checked for loose wiring and found a bad connection to my alternator and the batter drained abit and would not restart the car. My injector offset tables vs voltage need tweaked some.
Now i have been looking for the cause of some sort of ticking like sound... but its not a tick like metal, sounded more like an exhaust leak. I thought maybe a rocker arm but as i started taking the downpipe off, i started the car and the sound was amplified so I know its definately a leak. I found a small pin hole in the weld on the wastegate to downpipe tube and its leaking a touch. I think thats the only thing thats leaking and i hope its not a rocker arm as well. Its not very loud but you can hear it.
I may try to quick patch that hole with a tack weld and see what happens.
I still have heat issue from front to rear of the motor. Front cylinders are definately abit leaner looking (plugs) than rears and the rears are running much hotter. But the mid cylinders 5/6 are also very hot. I may need more timing at idle and maybe more fuel or so. Its alrady at mid 14's to 1 idle air fuel ratio
nice orr...... went to see bluegrassz, he told me you were about to start tuning, wanted to check in.... man you have made alot of progress, well done man..... sweet!
Drove the car alot yesterday...its on the road and running pretty good. Havent romped on it yet as it starts to go lean above 3500 rpm but between there and idle, its a monster. These turbos are gonna spool stupid quick! I should have gone bigger on the housing i think. They already start spinning up at 2500 rpm or so and are about to start making boost at 3000 ish from what i can tell and thats at 3/4 throttle roll in's
It sounds absolutely sick and that Tial BOV is reallly loud
Drove the car alot yesterday...its on the road and running pretty good. Havent romped on it yet as it starts to go lean above 3500 rpm but between there and idle, its a monster. These turbos are gonna spool stupid quick! I should have gone bigger on the housing i think. They already start spinning up at 2500 rpm or so and are about to start making boost at 3000 ish from what i can tell and thats at 3/4 throttle roll in's
It sounds absolutely sick and that Tial BOV is reallly loud
__________________ 10.32@133mph on 93oct. through the mufflers on a Drag Radial Tire. with 17psi.
Hot Rod Drag week 09 "Quickest Six" award!
Yep... it's only a V6.
Please share the information I've been getting help from a few other guys here that know code 59. So far so good.
I wasnt able to take the car over 3800 rpm because of what i thought was a lean spot which it probably is, but its acting like a rev limiter so i was wondering if i had fuel cutoff or something.
Other than that i got the car running ok on the 80lb injectors. idles fine and adjusted the voltage tables to deal with battery voltage drops. Car will idle ok even at 10 volts to the system..just goes very lean but it works
See where your fuel cut/rev limit is set in Tuner Pro.
Jeff's Twin Turbo Ty was doing the exact same thing.
Keep in mind that your Rev limit being set at 6500 will come in much earlier since the V8 has two more pulses or rev counts than a 4.3L.
Put the rev limit up high and see if it go's away.
What's your wide band saying?
~Scott
__________________ 10.32@133mph on 93oct. through the mufflers on a Drag Radial Tire. with 17psi.
Hot Rod Drag week 09 "Quickest Six" award!
Yep... it's only a V6.
i have my fuel cut set to 6687 for 8 cylinder. There are 3 tables for 8 6 and 4 cyl. Should i set it to infinite and just use my mallory 685 to control rev limiter? I thought the 3 tables would take into account the differences in pulses?
Havent checked my logs yet, will do so later tonight. But i did hit 2.7 lbs of boost at some point two nights ago and i never got on the gas 100%, no more than 75% i'd say Wastegates have 6-7 lb spring in them and BOV spring needs shimmed abit more, as i got the lightest Tial spring and my motor makes more vacuum than its rated at
He chased his tail for some time till we were in the Sy/Ty Chat room all talking and I asked where his rev limit was set... and I said it's getting 2 more pulses than normal seeing as the ECM your using/he is using was originally setup for a 4.3L.
It'll drive 8 injectors no problem...
You have differnt drivers in the ECM for the bigger injectors correct..?
Try the Sy/Ty Chat too (go to syty.net then chat is at top blinking) make user name
Jeff can help too.. he's always in there and so am I during the day.
Be glad to help you out.
__________________ 10.32@133mph on 93oct. through the mufflers on a Drag Radial Tire. with 17psi.
Hot Rod Drag week 09 "Quickest Six" award!
Yep... it's only a V6.
Well the setup i'm running now is just 730 ecm found in 91-92 TPI cars that runs high-Z injectors and I got Dig's 60 lb bin from code59.org and scaled it 75% to work with 80 lb injectors like i have. It worked ok but i had alot of tweaking to do and now have it somewhat ok. Coldstart needs worked and i may richen up idle abit but other than that its running well.
I'm using siemens 80lb high-z injectors and they are doing good. I really needed to adjust the voltage offset table to get idle from being so damn jumpy but its running now even with battery voltage as low as 10 volts (alternator wire popped off while running and battery drained) So i know its working well.
Jeff i believe had 84lb low Z injectors. I tried the bin he had on code59.org and it didnt work well for me. I guess there may be a difference in low z and high z stuff but all motors are different. My 383 tune didnt work on several other similar combos
I may have to check out those sites now that I have gotten this far
At least you have a startup file. Or a place to start.
I thought you were using a Sy/Ty ECm... as it's all setup for boost and everything.
Might be somthing to consider. Your wideband is tied into the ECM correct...?
Do you have a digital readout/gauge inside?
Running one wideband or two? Hop over to Sy/Ty chat real quick.. I'll go get in there.
~Scott
__________________ 10.32@133mph on 93oct. through the mufflers on a Drag Radial Tire. with 17psi.
Hot Rod Drag week 09 "Quickest Six" award!
Yep... it's only a V6.
I have to register. I made my same screen name but need to wait for administrator to approve i guess.
Yeah i'm not running the truck ECM but I repinned my original harness to run the code and so far it works fine.
I have LC-1 wideband wired into ECM and its reading the same as my guage in the car. I am planning ongetting another LC-1 for the other downpipe. I have bungs in both.
I think if you get on the board... up at the top it should say "Chat" in the middle with blinking lights.
HEre's another way to get to chat. http://chat.sytysogt.com/flashchat.php
__________________ 10.32@133mph on 93oct. through the mufflers on a Drag Radial Tire. with 17psi.
Hot Rod Drag week 09 "Quickest Six" award!
Yep... it's only a V6.
You have to register for chat too.. make a user name and password.
Enter it through the main page on syty.net where it says chat and then it'll let you set your user name/password.
__________________ 10.32@133mph on 93oct. through the mufflers on a Drag Radial Tire. with 17psi.
Hot Rod Drag week 09 "Quickest Six" award!
Yep... it's only a V6.
Jeff i believe had 84lb low Z injectors. I tried the bin he had on code59.org and it didnt work well for me. I guess there may be a difference in low z and high z stuff....
Yes, Jeff's peak and hold injectors have a faster trigger time, and uses a high 6-amp initial current pulse to open the injector, and a lower one to keep it open. His '749 ECM's driver delivers the correct impedance. The '730, although can run the same code, lacks the driver needed for his bin....
Very nice work! Please don't fall into the bigger is better trap on turbine size, especially for a street car. Leave that for the slow ricers. Your smaller a/r choice is much better here. You could easily run well into the low 9's on a street car with the exh housings you have. Going bigger will just make it harder to get into power. Go even further and the car has such trouble making boost it actually slows down.
Backpressure (and then expansion through the diffuser) is what powers the turbines. The turbines run like compressors in reverse basically. Having backpressure doesn't stop you from making tremendous power at all. It does make the hot side piping hard to seal on a turbo car though.
Pump gas will not support alot of boosted power. Esp with 9:1 CR. I'd say anything more than about 12 psi will be pushing it then. And that assuming it is all properly tuned, at every significant speed/load point.
And please be sure to retard the timing significantly as boost increases. This is critical to success here.
Thank you for so generously sharing your build up!
For reference, here's one of my friend's past twin turbo race cars.
It was a door slammer GS, relatively heavy at over 3200 lbs. Powered by a 274" v6 with a powerglide. It went a best of 7.9x @ 185 (no nitrous), being rather conservative on the tune (1st gen FAST system).
Real world point I'm trying to make is, note the size of those monster turbines on the engine (NOT)... These smaller hsgs were a sound engineering choice for this car, even into the 7's. Again, no nitrous.
Pump gas will not support alot of boosted power. Esp with 9:1 CR. I'd say anything more than about 12 psi will be pushing it then. And that assuming it is all properly tuned, at every significant speed/load point
There are guys pushing that much on much higher compression than what i have..i figured i could easily get 15psi on this setup probly tuned with pump gas and maybe some meth injection for safety
Well for now i'm be running just 6-7 lbs and then looking to get boost controller to hit 15. Meth may wait but if you dont think it will do without, then maybe i will get it sooner. Or just mix race gas in the tank.
If I did my turbo math right, this thing should still go high 10's on 7psi
Well in my experience, 15 psi would be pushing it on 9:1 and pump gas. But yes, there are people who push these things. And the internet is vast these days, such that ~ everyone has a cousin who knows someone who ran 7's on pump gas and 40 psi boost with a Honduh 4 cyl. We almost never hear about the big mess it left 2 weeks later though. Personally I prefer to err on the side of conservative, as opposed to needing a push broom to sweep up after the car. But of course it's your (very nice) project, not mine, so JMO and YMMV
There are guys pushing that much on much higher compression than what i have..i figured i could easily get 15psi on this setup probly tuned with pump gas and maybe some meth injection for safety....
9:1 is ideal for boost, and 15-psi won't be a problem. What matters most of course is the grade of fuel being used, the amount of ethanol in the fuel, and the state of tune. There were/are guys in the Buick world (the legendary Lawrence Conley, for one) building 10:1 compression engines, and running well over 15-psi, and Conley was doing this back in the early 90's....
Yeah I've known Lawrence since the early 90's too And for awhile he also was pushing a high timing approach for back then too, until I think the stack of blocks with custom ventilation in them became too big to fit in the dumpster out back. His motto was "if you're not breaking parts, you're not going fast enough", end quote. Personally I live by a somewhat differerent motto. Some people are more tolerant of knock, blown headgaskets, broken parts, etc than others it seems.
Just trying to impart some helpful, cautious advice based on years of actual experience. I have real time cylinder pressure monitoring gear of my own (and used it professionally for several years). You can learn alot from that gear, as you might expect. Don't want to step on any 3rd gen toes here. We'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. Peace, out.
Hey no harm, its all good advice. I honestly think I wont need much more than 8-10psi to have some serious fun in this car. 15+ on race gas tune is for the track but my car is only legal to 10.0's so i cant get to crazy with it
Unfortunately though, blown head gaskets, rods and pistons are very common in the turbo buick world. A lot of the guys that are still running the Bob Bailey modified ECM's, and turbo tweak chips, in conjunction with their scanmaster's, etc, have to worry about those issues. Nowadays, with 16 and 32-bit processors, detonation is much easier kept in check, and the only real issue then is the credibility of the engine builder himself. Those who know how to tune for boost, 99.9% of the time, their engines will blow because of a flaw in the engine's assembly. But yeah, 15-psi is more than enough for a 400-SBC, as at that level, the cubic inch displacement is doubled....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTR
Yeah I've known Lawrence since the early 90's too And for awhile he also was pushing a high timing approach for back then too, until I think the stack of blocks with custom ventilation in them became too big to fit in the dumpster out back. His motto was "if you're not breaking parts, you're not going fast enough", end quote. Personally I live by a somewhat differerent motto. Some people are more tolerant of knock, blown headgaskets, broken parts, etc than others it seems.
Just trying to impart some helpful, cautious advice based on years of actual experience. I have real time cylinder pressure monitoring gear of my own (and used it professionally for several years). You can learn alot from that gear, as you might expect. Don't want to step on any 3rd gen toes here. We'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. Peace, out.
u guys wouldnt happen to have any used T3s laying around would ya? lol. looks good Orr89rocZ!! keep it up
just rode in my friends 92 stang with a vortec supercharger... dynoed at 411rwhp (mild 302 with holley top end package) it wasnt as fast as i thought it would be. belt was slipping and only made 10psi max at one point. id be happy with twin T3s out back of the car with 6-8psi on my 383
post some pics and vids soon! i had a tick too upfront when i just started my 383, i thought it was the rockers so i pulled the valve cover and found that 2 were alil loose even with the poly locks. didnt really change anything tho, guess its just loud. dunno how being hydraulic roller cam and full roller proform rockers
__________________ Formula 383 HSR 9.3:1
SCAT 9000 cast crank, SCAT 4340 forged rods/ARP rod bolts, SRP forged pistons/JE rings, ported HSR, HSR port matched to felpro1206, 58mm TB, grannelli MAF
30lb SVO injectors, patriot 195cc aluminum heads port matched to felpro 1206
XFI280 comp cam, 230/236, .571/.569
1.6 aluminum full roller rockers
handmade aluminum RAM AIR Headman LTs, true dual 3" with 3" xpipe
700r4, built by me, can handle 700hp, beast sunshell, billet servos, transgo shift kit, yadda yadda
march pullies, smog deleted, AC/heat removed
160 thermostat, 166 on fan switch 8pt CEE roll bar, with swing out door bars, hand made thru floor SFC, Jegster tunnel mount tubular TQ arm, Jegster drive shaft safety loop
UMI LCA relocation brackets, UMI adjustable panhard rod, hand made tubular LCA's,TDS wonderbar, KYB struts and shocks, cut moogs 5664/5665, moog suspension tierods etc
SSBC force 10 front calliper upgrade kit, slotted and drilled rotors, stainless braided lines all over car, rebuilt master, SSBC proportioning valve, rebuilt booster, ford 8.8 11.5" rear disks FORD 8.8, rear disks, 3.55 gears, rebuilt carbon fiber clutch trac lock(posi) with f150 preload spring, 28spline axles, ARP cap studs and moser aluminum support girdle.
SLP 17x8's fronts wrapped in Nitto 555 ZR rubber
rears will be 17x10.5 ford rims with 315's
NO2 150shot comin soonnnn!! or dual rear mounted turbos
Unfortunately, centrifigually supercharged street cars are generally not as fast as their peak dyno hp numbers might suggest. The main problem is, they fall way off boost on each upshft. It's sort of analogous to having too large a turbine a/r, as we mentioned above.
Been working with a supercharged Camaro lately (BBC + Procharger F3R + FAST XFI) that makes around 2,500 hp or so at peak boost of about 30 psi. It has a powerglide though (lol), and on the 1-2 upshift the boost drops some ~ 8 psi, then slowly climbs back upwards as the rpm climbs again. For sure the car is quite fast already (6 sec car at well over 200 mph), don't misunderstand, but it would also pick up significantly without the big boost (power) drop on the upshift. The Achilles heel of a centrifigual blower. The boost curve is basically = to the rpm curve. So during an actual run it spends most of it's time well down from peak boost and peak hp. If it had turbos, that would be a much different story. But OTOH, the centrifugual is a relative joy to stage and launch, compared to a big turbo.
arent other fall backs of superchargers that they can only make as much max boost as high as you rev... example being that turbos can make more boost bc supercharger max boost is directly rated to max RPM. except for the option of smaller pullies. a good thing about superchargers tho is less weight (turbo has lots of plumbing), less heat (doesnt always need an intercooler depending on boost etc) but they make less power and take power from the engine to operate.
is there any issues with running a MAF with a turbo or dual turbos? seems that most ppl switch to the 730 ecm and speed density
MAF cant handle a healthy n/a 383 without needing PE mode to add extra fuel. Boost would only make it worse. If you run low power setup, and know exactly when boost comes in rpm wise, you can use PE mode on a MAF car to add fuel for boost. Its a band aid tho much like a fuel management unit (FMU) that is used to increase fuel pressure with boost to add fuel. Its not a preferred setup tho. MAP sensor is needed for proper fuel addition with boosted applications.
AWESOME 
14psi, street tune 
) T-tops, WS6, sold 7/23/02
I've been getting help from a few other guys here that know code 59. So far so good.
even mild boost like 8lbs? 
