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I would really question the quality of the materials etc. A dual turbo KIT for a little over a grand? Unless prices have come down a LOT, I am used to seeing single turbo's (JUST the turbo) for that price...... am I missing something?
as far as i know, there are no kits for third gens. you have to fab it up and piece it together. there are plenty of builds in the power adder section, to give you an idea of what to expect when building a turbo car.
lately im quite tempted to buy one of these kits, and give em a run for the money. shlt, for $1000 bucks, you get an afull lot, and i can throw some junk yard turbos and gusset the headers up, for less then it would cost to fab my own.
anesthes, hook me up with a link to this dudes kit.
Last edited by iroc a 86 berli; 12-02-2009 at 01:57 AM.
Guy on nastyz28 has a twin turbo, using the $200 chinese junk turbos. makes 984 horsepower and is pretty reliable..
-- Joe
Well, the "normal" China T3/T4 hybrid that is used for twins will only flow for up to 800 FWHP as a pair. The more expensive GT45 or so called T70 is in the $300 range and is getting in the price bracket of why not just get a brand name turbo. A pair of GT45s will make 900+ HP, but will also spool late.
Overall, if you look at what you get in the kit you will see it is still missing a lot of stuff. Keep that in mind when pricing the entire turbo setup. I pieced together my kits using used brand name turbos. I paid $50 each and $50 for a rebuild kit for Garrett T3s (flow to 250HP each) and $200 each for T3 60 Trims (flow to 325HP each). You can get used Holsets with 70mm wheels for $200. I sound biased, but yeah........I have a China GT45 sitting in a box I want to try out someday.
Try piecing together a kit, it always seems to come up cheaper and with better parts.
Well, the "normal" China T3/T4 hybrid that is used for twins will only flow for up to 800 FWHP as a pair. The more expensive GT45 or so called T70 is in the $300 range and is getting in the price bracket of why not just get a brand name turbo. A pair of GT45s will make 900+ HP, but will also spool late.
Overall, if you look at what you get in the kit you will see it is still missing a lot of stuff. Keep that in mind when pricing the entire turbo setup. I pieced together my kits using used brand name turbos. I paid $50 each and $50 for a rebuild kit for Garrett T3s (flow to 250HP each) and $200 each for T3 60 Trims (flow to 325HP each). You can get used Holsets with 70mm wheels for $200. I sound biased, but yeah........I have a China GT45 sitting in a box I want to try out someday.
Try piecing together a kit, it always seems to come up cheaper and with better parts.
I'd like to talk to you about this when you have some time. I was tempted to pick up some $200 57 compressor chinese turbos from ebay, with the build in waste gate (as plumbing would be easier), ssa headers, and a little fabrication for a cheap blow through.. 600 or so hp goal.
lately im quite tempted to buy one of these kits, and give em a run for the money. shlt, for $1000 bucks, you get an afull lot, and i can throw some junk yard turbos and gusset the headers up, for less then it would cost to fab my own.
anesthes, hook me up with a link to this dudes kit.
I don't understand why anyone would want to be in the 9's with a "stock 10 bolt". At minimum you would think they put in axles and c-clip eliminators. What track would let you go that fast on stock axles?
Moving on............It may be worth it to look at the SSAC / ebay / China single turbo header if all you want is 600HP. Put a 64mm inducer turbo on it and go fast. I think you would have hood clearance problems though. The single setup is much easier to fab than a dual setup. I saw a 2nd gen. setup using a Holset H2 series unit (63mm CW) that fit in the battery location.
The 2nd gen. has more room between the engine and tires. The 3rd gen. has more room between the engine and hood. The battery area is a nice spot to fit a 70+mm turbo in either a T4 or T6 frame. Then put the battery on the driver's side.
EDIT: Convert that thing to EFI 730/749 ECM. The blow thru will work, but EFI is so much more user friendly (starting, broken pistons, MPG, weather changes, etc).
I myself may not have tons of money to blow here and there, but if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it correctly the first time. Which means buying quality turbos, such as Turbonetics GT-K's. At least they won't burn oil like there's no tomorrow, such as the cheap Chinese eBay turbos.
__________________
'86 IROC-Z - All torn down currently and waiting to be built one of these years
'01 Mustang GT - T56 6 Speed - 03-04 Cobra Alum DS - Centerforce DFX - Fidanza Flywheel - Steeda Tri Ax - 3.73s - SCT LiveWire - Borla Stinger Catback - Magnaflow Tru-X Catted X - Black 18X9 & 18X10 FR500s - Vortech for sale, going turbo instead
I myself may not have tons of money to blow here and there, but if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it correctly the first time. Which means buying quality turbos, such as Turbonetics GT-K's. At least they won't burn oil like there's no tomorrow, such as the cheap Chinese eBay turbos.
Some claim the Turbonetics GT-K's are junk. He said / She said. How about some proof stating YOUR actual experiences (not what you heard on the web from "them guys").
What is correctly the first time? If it is your first time, you probably won't know what "correct" is.
EDIT: If the Turbonetics turbos are so good then why doesn't any OEM company use them? They use Garrett, Borg Warner, IHI, etc.............no turbonetics at all.
I don't understand why anyone would want to be in the 9's with a "stock 10 bolt". At minimum you would think they put in axles and c-clip eliminators. What track would let you go that fast on stock axles?
Oh who knows. I'd like to run mid 11s.. 11.50 @ 125 mph. I don't want to cage the car..
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkcltr
Moving on............It may be worth it to look at the SSAC / ebay / China single turbo header if all you want is 600HP. Put a 64mm inducer turbo on it and go fast. I think you would have hood clearance problems though. The single setup is much easier to fab than a dual setup. I saw a 2nd gen. setup using a Holset H2 series unit (63mm CW) that fit in the battery location.
The 2nd gen. has more room between the engine and tires. The 3rd gen. has more room between the engine and hood. The battery area is a nice spot to fit a 70+mm turbo in either a T4 or T6 frame. Then put the battery on the driver's side.
I'm not sure if I have the ambition to fab up headers for a single that mounts the turbo that way.. I'm kinda tempted with this turbo stuff, but at the same time a good vortech is ideally what I'd like to see on the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkcltr
EDIT: Convert that thing to EFI 730/749 ECM. The blow thru will work, but EFI is so much more user friendly (starting, broken pistons, MPG, weather changes, etc).
True, and I probably will eventually. It's just a huge expense. intake, throttle body, rails, injectors, fuel pump, VSS adapter for the trans, then a method of tuning it realtime (ostrich, flash, etc).. figure around $1800
the headers are the only thing that is worth puttin in your car, i used them to make my single turbo kit for my s475 in my 87, have to clearance the back tube to clear the steering shaft tho.....other then that i have seen no problems with them.
the headers are the only thing that is worth puttin in your car, i used them to make my single turbo kit for my s475 in my 87, have to clearance the back tube to clear the steering shaft tho.....other then that i have seen no problems with them.
They are 1 5/8" primaries right? I would think that would be a restriction on a 500+ hp motor.
On a turbo engine the 1 5/8" are less of a restriction than the inlet of the turbo. If you run the numbers you will find that eight 1 5/8" tubes have a lot more area than the turbine. Typically, that size tube will max. out in the 800+ HP range. A good cam choice helps.
I hear you about the EFI conversion. I did my entire carb to LT1 intake swap for about $900 with used stuff.
You mentioned the SC for about $1200. Cutting that in half is hard to beat. The headers in the pic you said you didn't want to fab. are on ebay for $225 shipped. The China GT45 is about $325 shipped. Some 2.5" or 2.25" bends for the merge pipe, 2 T3 flanges, and T4 flange on ebay will run about $150. The GT45 outlet flange is $50. Some 3.5" or 4" downpipe is around $100. A wastegate for $100. Total, 225+325+150+50+100+100 = 950. You still need the compressor pipe, couplers, and oil in and oil out lines.
I am not sure how to compare it to the SC. You would have a 800 HP capable setup with a twist of a boost knob to go from 500HP to 800HP..........if you got good gas in it.
On a turbo engine the 1 5/8" are less of a restriction than the inlet of the turbo. If you run the numbers you will find that eight 1 5/8" tubes have a lot more area than the turbine. Typically, that size tube will max. out in the 800+ HP range. A good cam choice helps.
I hear you about the EFI conversion. I did my entire carb to LT1 intake swap for about $900 with used stuff.
You mentioned the SC for about $1200. Cutting that in half is hard to beat. The headers in the pic you said you didn't want to fab. are on ebay for $225 shipped. The China GT45 is about $325 shipped. Some 2.5" or 2.25" bends for the merge pipe, 2 T3 flanges, and T4 flange on ebay will run about $150. The GT45 outlet flange is $50. Some 3.5" or 4" downpipe is around $100. A wastegate for $100. Total, 225+325+150+50+100+100 = 950. You still need the compressor pipe, couplers, and oil in and oil out lines.
I am not sure how to compare it to the SC. You would have a 800 HP capable setup with a twist of a boost knob to go from 500HP to 800HP..........if you got good gas in it.
I had sent you an email about the reasoning behind a single vs twin.. I don't know if I shouldn't clutter up the thread with that stuff as it's not really related to the kits on ebay, but more of a design preference.
Also, regarding built in wastegate vs external. I sort of like the idea of build in, because then you don't need a second pipe merging downstream.
wow so it appears everyone has there own point of view on this..i must say tho,the kits ive seen installed do look pretty dam good although how they perform is one thing but even if you got a year or 2 out then you could always swap turbos if they turned out to be junk
wow so it appears everyone has there own point of view on this..i must say tho,the kits ive seen installed do look pretty dam good although how they perform is one thing but even if you got a year or 2 out then you could always swap turbos if they turned out to be junk
I had a hard time finding pics of an installed kit. I've seen installed headers, but no installed kits.
All the twin turbo setups i've seen, have been home-made headers. Which is fine, but I'm not doing that..
right,i dont have the equip. needed to make a nice "proper" set of headers,i cant imagine the headers and piping is that bad from ebay but turbos would be the biggest concern.
I think the reasoning behind two smaller vs. one larger turbo is all about lag. Smaller turbos will spool up faster, hence, less turbo lag. Is it noticeable difference? does it justify the additional cost? IS there additional cost? (one would think...) Is it worth the additional complexity of a dual system? I don't have a clue...... Some folks seem to think so though.....
I don't buy into the twins spool faster than a single theory. All the math points to them being about the same. Twins are good in the sense it is usually easier to find the room to fit one one on each side. A big single on one side is more difficult to fit.
I like singles because of the simplicity. One of everything. Twins means two of everything which adds cost without any gain. Twins are good in space limited regions and where one single won't flow enough air.
Everyone has an opinion on what ebay turbo parts are good. Some say the headers are the only good part, some say just the turbos, some say just the intercoolers...........it goes on and on. I say try it if you want. At worse you have to fix/modify it or sell it to someone else. Would I put a China GT45 on a Dart block, Callies crank, AFR head, etc engine........no way. I would go with the Borg Warner, Garrett, Holset, etc stuff. Heck, the Borg Warner turbos are about the same price as a China turbo now.
All the China headers use 18 ga. stainless pipe. Anyone think that the header will last with heat cycles and turbo weight? Ain't gonna last for ever. Is the header setup worth the $200? I think it is.........but it will probably require repairs in the future. Or just properly modify/fix it before installing. Overall, much more simple than a complete header fab.
Although, is the China GT45 (800-900HP)turbo a real bargain at $320 shipped? I just looked up Borg Warner S400 with a 70mm CW (inducer) (900HP) and they are $400 shipped. On top of that, the 80mm wheel upgrade is about $350. For 400+350 = $750 you could have a 1200HP turbo that would last forever. Bargains, Bargains...........but you gotta do your research to figure out where to look.
I don't buy into that BS either, and would like to know who put them false theories out there. With twin turbos, sure, you have lighter bearings, lighter turbines. Yet think about it, you have half the exhaust gasses flowing, on two turbos that are both probably only 20 MM's smaller than a comparable single turbo setup for the same engine.
Fact of the matter is, it all depends on the particular situation. If you sacrifice overall peak power for smaller turbochargers, sure, you'll boost maybe a whole 500 RPM's sooner, yet that would be useless in any drag race. In every single drag race I've ever seen involving a turbocharged V8, they launch at about 3,000-4,000 RPM, which is in the realm of full boost.
Then again, I have yet to see any modern turbocharged engine have any less throttle response, a.k.a "lag", than any naturally aspirated engines. Turbo companies actually produce quality turbochargers these days, with ball bearings. Well except for Garrett, they haven't caught on for the most part. Odds are, anyone that mentions lag has never been in or driven a turbocharged car. You blip the throttle once and the wastegates are chirping away, now I do not call that "lag".
I'd also like to find out which moron put the theory out there that single turbo setups have more top end, while twins boost fuller but do not have all of the top end.
Turbochargers ARE NOT ENGINES, the amount of exhaust gasses flowing does not effect their peak RPM, unless there is not sufficient flow. I believe I saw that on some JDM r!cer forum once. Twins will create equal power compared to a big single, almost identical throughout the powerband.
__________________
'86 IROC-Z - All torn down currently and waiting to be built one of these years
'01 Mustang GT - T56 6 Speed - 03-04 Cobra Alum DS - Centerforce DFX - Fidanza Flywheel - Steeda Tri Ax - 3.73s - SCT LiveWire - Borla Stinger Catback - Magnaflow Tru-X Catted X - Black 18X9 & 18X10 FR500s - Vortech for sale, going turbo instead
Some claim the Turbonetics GT-K's are junk. He said / She said. How about some proof stating YOUR actual experiences (not what you heard on the web from "them guys").
What is correctly the first time? If it is your first time, you probably won't know what "correct" is.
EDIT: If the Turbonetics turbos are so good then why doesn't any OEM company use them? They use Garrett, Borg Warner, IHI, etc.............no turbonetics at all.
It seems as if you're one of them people that "claim" things, junkcltr.
With all respect due, are you a kid or something?
How could you possibly NOT understand this saying:
"but if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it correctly the first time."
Please tell me you're not honest on that one, please. I'll elaborate. That saying does NOT necessarily mean it could be someones' first time doing anything, yet if they are going to do this thing, they are going to do it correctly, basically not cut corners.
"Measure twice cut once." There you go, hopefully you understand that. I'll leave you off with some videos, then possibly some personal experience in late 2010, into 2011 when I have the extra money to bolt on turbochargers.
Pay attention closely to that Camaro running 3 seconds in the 8th, then even think for a second that Turbonetics are junk. Also, try to tell people with Hellion turbo systems that they are junk. Mustang guys are making HUGE power with the Hellion systems, which run Turbonetics turbos.
As for your statement about production car turbos not using Turbonetics turbos, since WHEN DO CAR COMPANIES USE TOP KNOTCH PRODUCTS? Do you see forged internals, high duration camshafts, built rears and trannys, ported heads, plus size injectors, 90 MM FAST throttle bodies, FAST manifolds, and drag radials on stock Corvettes? Sure don't.
That makes absolutely NO sense at all, I should not even be arguing about this BS. What next, will you expect to see KB blowers on stock Mustang GT's? What a joke. Yeah, auto manufacturers use top of the line products all the time..
__________________
'86 IROC-Z - All torn down currently and waiting to be built one of these years
'01 Mustang GT - T56 6 Speed - 03-04 Cobra Alum DS - Centerforce DFX - Fidanza Flywheel - Steeda Tri Ax - 3.73s - SCT LiveWire - Borla Stinger Catback - Magnaflow Tru-X Catted X - Black 18X9 & 18X10 FR500s - Vortech for sale, going turbo instead
How could you possibly NOT understand this saying:
"but if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it correctly the first time."
Please tell me you're not honest on that one, please. I'll elaborate. That saying does NOT necessarily mean it could be someones' first time doing anything, yet if they are going to do this thing, they are going to do it correctly, basically not cut corners.
"Measure twice cut once." There you go, hopefully you understand that. I'll leave you off with some videos, then possibly some personal experience in late 2010, into 2011 when I have the extra money to bolt on turbochargers.
Measure twice cut once will not yield a good turbo system. It usually is measure, cut, measure, cut, etc when doing a from scratch turbo system. What is correct to one maybe wrong to another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Z
Pay attention closely to that Camaro running 3 seconds in the 8th, then even think for a second that Turbonetics are junk. Also, try to tell people with Hellion turbo systems that they are junk. Mustang guys are making HUGE power with the Hellion systems, which run Turbonetics turbos.
As for your statement about production car turbos not using Turbonetics turbos, since WHEN DO CAR COMPANIES USE TOP KNOTCH PRODUCTS? Do you see forged internals, high duration camshafts, built rears and trannys, ported heads, plus size injectors, 90 MM FAST throttle bodies, FAST manifolds, and drag radials on stock Corvettes? Sure don't.
My personal opinion on Turbonetics turbos are that they are very good. I never said they were bad. You read into that. Yes, lots of companies don't use top notch stuff. So, that means "they didn't do it right the first time". Get it? Does that mean those car companies used "junk" because it wasn't top notch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Z
That makes absolutely NO sense at all, I should not even be arguing about this BS. What next, will you expect to see KB blowers on stock Mustang GT's? What a joke. Yeah, auto manufacturers use top of the line products all the time..
Arguing about which turbo is better doesn't get anyone anywhere when no hard numbers and facts are posted. You really missed the point on this one. Please re-read the post.
I should have know better. I looked at his previous posts and it is full of personal attacks. Lots of opinions without facts.
Moving on.......going the turbo route is cheaper if you don't take into account your time doing all the fab. part. If you can do the SC for $1200 then that is probably the better route since you already bought headers. I am biased towards turbos because I like the quietness and cost when doing a DIY setup. SCs are just as good.
I had found these kits on ebay awhile ago, but i cant seem to get any solid facts about them. maybe nobody's tried them before. anyway, theyre like a good deal, and similar to the ones you guys r discussing. for ~$12-1500$ it seems like a good deal, you could always swap turbos down the road (or in the event that they turn out 2 be sh!tty).
Thought I read on here that the second style you posted wouldnt' work, because of where it puts the turbos, or because it hits the steering shaft. One or the other, or possibly both. The first style you posted though, I'm not sure anyone on here as tried. I have turbos already, just trying to figure out if I want to trust the kit, or build my own. I really don't have time to make headers and the piping, but since the car has been down for 4 years already, what difference would another month make, right? I hate decisions.
It usually is measure, cut, measure, cut, etc when doing a from scratch turbo system. What is correct to one maybe wrong to another.
Aint that the truth... lots of cut measure cut scrap measure cut paste
I dont know how these guys are selling kits for that cheap unless they get material for free. Fabbing up my own twin kit using JGS wastegates and Master Power turbos (cheaper stuff out there but still good quality wise) and I have between 3-3.5 grand into the complete hotside/coldside. The turbos/wastegates/flanges were about 1600-1700 I think it was. Intercooler was 550. BOV was 200. Add in alot of piping and its 3000+
Definately not the most expensive and best quality system but certainly not all that cheap/budget minded...kinda middle of the road.
Fabbing myself, so no labor costs... i did have my buddy weld the manifolds for 125 bucks I think it was. How can you offer everything for 1000 bucks???? I wouldnt want to try that kit on a good motor, but maybe used on a stocker just to get used to a turbo motor and when it fails, replace with better turbos and materials for the manifolds/piping.
With that said, if i had another thirdgen, like a 305 TPI car just to play with, i'd TOTALLY buy that kit to see how it works out
I had found these kits on ebay awhile ago, but i cant seem to get any solid facts about them. maybe nobody's tried them before. anyway, theyre like a good deal, and similar to the ones you guys r discussing. for ~$12-1500$ it seems like a good deal, you could always swap turbos down the road (or in the event that they turn out 2 be sh!tty).
Do not consider it a Camaro twin setup. It is more like a box of turbo parts. You will have to make everything fit a 3rd gen. The name of the AD is incorrect.
Look at the "kit".
Are the oil lines cut to length? No
Are the turbos clocked properly? No
Is there brackets for the IC? No
Is there a downpipe? No
Is there a complete already cut cold side? No
Is there an air cleaner? No
It is simply just a box of low end turbo parts. It may or may be worth it to you depending on your expectations.
The header set that puts the turbos above the valve covers will make them hit the hood and just about hit the brake booster with no room for a downpipe. The kit with the turbos by the water pump is the only one you will get to fit after you modify the driver's side for the steering shaft.
I dont know how these guys are selling kits for that cheap unless they get material for free. Fabbing up my own twin kit using JGS wastegates and Master Power turbos (cheaper stuff out there but still good quality wise) and I have between 3-3.5 grand into the complete hotside/coldside. The turbos/wastegates/flanges were about 1600-1700 I think it was. Intercooler was 550. BOV was 200. Add in alot of piping and its 3000+
You spent more but got piece of mind and better reliability. In my opinion, a good design for a well built engine. I maybe would have cheaped out on the IC with a $100 ebay cooler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
With that said, if i had another thirdgen, like a 305 TPI car just to play with, i'd TOTALLY buy that kit to see how it works out
I think the same way. Couple a cheap engine with a cheap kit. Good kit with a good engine. With a little bit of re-design (much easier than by scratch) of the headers they would work on a higher end engine. As for everything else........it is just too iffy on a engine that has money into it. It all comes down to how much risk one wants to take. With a used TPI 305/350 there is not much to lose if it goes bad. Really though, suppose at worse a turbo shaft breaks........at least the IC will filter it from the engine for the most part. It could go either way.
The header set that puts the turbos above the valve covers will make them hit the hood and just about hit the brake booster with no room for a downpipe.
yep unless you dont mind doing what I did, and cut the hood and leave them exposed... i kinda like it then i kinda want them hidden... its good for heat extraction tho...constant cool air flowing over the turbos to get rid of some of that heat...one bonus i guess
I definitely agree with you guys, i just wanted to see what some owners with experience thought. Junkcltr, youre right. Admittedly, the kit isnt complete, downpipes to fab, filters to buy, routing to do...ect, but if you got a car for maybe 3-4k, a kit like this would b a cool buy just for the parts. And if it held up, well there you go! And Orr89RocZ, your car is the reason i liked the "up-top" style headers...your style is sweet (and functional!).
I definitely agree with you guys, i just wanted to see what some owners with experience thought. Junkcltr, youre right. Admittedly, the kit isnt complete, downpipes to fab, filters to buy, routing to do...ect, but if you got a car for maybe 3-4k, a kit like this would b a cool buy just for the parts. And if it held up, well there you go! And Orr89RocZ, your car is the reason i liked the "up-top" style headers...your style is sweet (and functional!).
Look at it this way. At worst, what if one turbo goes bad? It is less than $150 to replace. As long as it doesn't take out the engine then it isn't a bid deal. At best, you make 700 FWHP with the setup and everyone on the web thinks it is "the sh**".
Up top and through the hood is fine if you prefer that look and like Orr89RocZ said, it does help cooling. The bothersome part is the brake booster. I was literally looking at those headers installed in a 1st gen. last night and the turbo was on the brake booster. 3rd gens don't differ that much in that area. I think if you do the kit, the turbos by the water pump is easier to modify and make it work on the driver's side. There are some recent pics of it floating around here.
14psi, pump gas street tune 
And Orr89RocZ, your car is the reason i liked the "up-top" style headers...your style is sweet (and functional!). 
