rx7speed

I just saw this and figured I would dig it back up



this is sick man


just uffggin not fair

XxPichulonxX

one question, WHAT THE HELL TRANSMISSION ARE YOU GONNA USE WITH THAT 1000+HP AND 1000+ LB FT TRQ? My mind wont rest until I know!

rx7speed

from what his sig says it´s a say

4L80E

and his website up near the top says the same

DragracerArt

Dumb question for you Monty...


I'll start off by saying I don't know "squat" about turbo motors...
(Ask me about the blue bottle, and it's another story)


In conversation with many Dragracing buddies, I understand turbo engines are more efficient with less cubic inches (to a degree)...

Somewhere around 280-320 cubes comes to mind...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in "There's no replacement for displacement",(was running a 515BBC) but have heard the contrary, when it comes to turbos...


If I remember correctly, the smaller motors work more efficiently due to less internal friction, and rotating/reciprocating weight...

Just wondering what your opnion is on this...



On the opposite side of the coin, you obviously want the extra cubes to make power when running a naturally aspirated engine...Just never heard of it with the turbos...

Buddy of mine has an SBC out to 472 cubes...(yes 472)
Ever hear of Andy Jensen ?
'63 split window
6.80's @ 200+ with a fogger

Monty

Dragracerart,

I'm a firm believer in displacment as well, but the real reason I went with a TT SBC 427 is that I already had the SBC 427. I built the motor last year as a 650hp/580tq pumpgas street engine. When I got bit by the turbo bug it was easier to just swap the pistons and cam rather than reconfigure the entire rotating assembly. I have some premium parts in the engine, a Crower Ultralight 4340 billet crank, and Crower 4340 billet rods, so I didn't want to waste my investment.

As for never hearing of turbo'd SBC 427's etc, that is the setup Lingenfelter is most famous for right now, albeit using an LS1 based engine though. Most of the other well known aftermarket domestic tuners are also building twin turbo 427's (Mallett, etc).

I think the main reason the bigger turbo motors aren't more common is that NMCA/NSCA limits the displacement to meet weight minimums, and when you're not restricted to 93 octane pump gas it's just as easy to make big power by running more boost than it is to increase displacement. Right now, the street legal racing series' is where most of the aftermarket domestic turbo action is. As more and more guys get their turbocharged street setups completed, we might find that it will change.

My engine is no where near being pushed to it's limits. When we dyno'd it and it made almost 1200hp/1000tq on 93 octane, it was only making about 18psi of boost, and only 23* of timing. I could probably turn the boost up to the 25psi range and make a bunch more power, but I'm happy with it's performance right now and by not pushing it hard and leaving the tuning on the mild side it should be a reliable performer.

If I'm thinking of the same person, I beleive I have seen that car in Fastest Street Car magazine?

CrazyHawaiian

I'm by no means a turbo expert (nor do I have experience with turbocharged v8's), but I dont think having a larger displacement will cause the setup to be less effecient, just alot harder to fully tune. If we're talkn street cars here, I think people dont usually go with big displacement turbo setups because of the raw power output. It takes a special kind of madman to drive down to the store with 1000+ hp/tq on tap all the time. People can usually pump out the power they desire with smaller displacement engines that are maxed out and funny tuned. Like Monty said, his engine isn't even maxed out yet. Pretty scary if you ask me. By raising the displacement, the engine will flow more air so that means you'll need to get bigger turbo's and bigger intercooler(s). So it might also be a cost issue for most people.

I found some interesting reading on the subject. Hope it wont offend anyone, but the car in question here is an Import. But its not a regular import. Its a 4000hp Integra funny car .. twin turbo 286 cubic inch 4.8-liter inline four (thats right, a big displacement 4 cyl) Check out the article here:

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0202tur_extremeedge/

Not saying that car is better than anyones car or anything of that sort. Only brought it up because we were discussing if bigger displacement engines are less effecient for turbo setups. And I dont know the definate answer, but I think it all depends on how much time is spent tuning a turbo setup that will determine how effecient it is.

:lala:

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The reason that people rarely go with big displacement turbo engines is because of many factors, including those mentioned so far, but the big ones are probably:

NA, More CI = more HP. On a turbocharged engine it’s all about the turbos. Airflow = HP. As long as you’ve got turbos that can pump the air that you want, and heads, intake and exhaust that can move that air reasonably efficiently at a reasonable boost level (the less efficient the setup is the higher the boost will be) you will make the HP. Putting more cubes under this doesn’t get you more HP, you just get it sooner resulting in more low and midrange torque making the car harder to hook and harder on driveline parts.

Second, to get mega displacements out of a small block you have to make some compromises, thinner cylinder walls, weaker ring lands, more crank stroke… all resulting a greater potential for failure and less durability so if you could use similar parts with a smaller bore and stroke increasing durability and end up making the same HP and running similarly, why wouldn’t you?

Lastly, doing this you can often use cheaper parts (you don't need to spend as much time on fancy machining techneques...) and still run as fast…

OTOH, if clutch technology advanced so that it wasn’t the limiting factor in power delivery in extreame applications, they had someplace to race it and the NHRA allowed wider the 16” tires, could you imagine a rail powered by a quad turbo, nitro/methanol burning, 800ci monster motor?

89ProchargedROC

83, that was VERY VERY well said.

especially this paragraph....we should make your post a sticky

NA, More CI = more HP. On a turbocharged engine it’s all about the turbos. Airflow = HP. As long as you’ve got turbos that can pump the air that you want, and heads, intake and exhaust that can move that air reasonably efficiently at a reasonable boost level (the less efficient the setup is the higher the boost will be) you will make the HP. Putting more cubes under this doesn’t get you more HP, you just get it sooner resulting in more low and midrange torque making the car harder to hook and harder on driveline parts.

Enkil

Just curious, is that thing going to be emissions legal? heh

Monty

Enkil.

If you're referring to my setup, I don't know if it would pass an emissions test, but I'm not subject to testing, so it was not a design parameter. My car is registered and insured as a "pleasure" vehicle and limited to less than 3000 miles per year, and no emissions testing. I only drive it when the weather is nice on weekends, so the mileage restricition is not prohibative.

However, high-output turbo setups can be made emissions legal, as seen by the examples produced by LPE, Mallet, etc.

soulbounder

Very nice numbers Monty. Reminds me of Steve Kamis' Project Insane Asylum; he just went a different route with a big block and superchargers. His is almost completely finished with his car. Anyway, I just wanted to know what influenced your decision to go with the Dart Iron Eagle block as opposed to something like the Little "M" or a Rocket block or something from World Products? I've been weighing the pros and cons of each and I cannot seem to decide on which block to go with.

Monty

Soulbounder,

I talk to Steve an a frequent basis, his project is definitely impressive.

The Dart Iron Eagle is identical to the GM Rocket Block, actually Dart makes the Rocket Block for GM. The only difference is a casting logo, and a little machining that allows the Iron Eagle block to be used as a wet or dry sump, whereas the Rocket Block is sold under different part numbers depending on sump design. The Iron Eagle/Rocket features thicker cylinder walls, mains, bulkheads, decks, optional deck heights, cam heights, main journal sizes, cam bearing sizes, etc.

The Little M is basically the same as a Bowtie block, just a heavy-duty production block, but without the upgrades the Iron Eagle/Rocket block features.

In my opinion, the Little M or Bowtie is good for 700hp or less, anything above, step up to the Iron Eagle/Rocket.

soulbounder

That's what I was thinking. From everything I've read and the people that I have talked to, something tells me to go with the rocket block/iron eagle. There have even been a few people I've talked to that regret going with something like the Little "M" instead of an Iron Eagle design. I've been planning a 427 TT to go in my T-top 91 Firebird for a while now so at least I'll have a benchmark to go up against. But that won't be for a very long time.

Thanks for the quick response. Good luck with the tuning!

Monty

I think for a 4.0" stroke SBC, the tall 9.325" deck Iron Eagle is the way to go, that's what I used. The reason being that you can run a longer rod and maintain a decent rod/stroke ratio. I'm running a 6.125" rod which yields a 1.53 rod/stroke ratio, the same as a 454 BBC and slightly better than a 5.7" rod 383 with a 1.52 r/s. Alot of people think these big stroke engines won't rev quickly, but that's not true. We've taken mine up to 7800rpm on the dyno and the guys at Fast Times even commented on how quickly it revs. It's very respsonsive.

The Iron Eagle/Rocket does require a few specialized parts. The oil pan rails are spread .400" on eahc side, but Summit/Jeg's sells a Moroso pan for it, with pump/pickup, for about $250. You can get a sheetmetal aluminum pan starting at about $100-150 more. You'll also needthe appropriate timing chain or belt. Cloyes has one fo theirr tru-roller's for about $100, and a stock timing cover is used. You'll need either a tall deck manifold or manifold spacers. Dart, Edelbrock, etc sell them for not much more than a standard manifold. Also, the tall deck height will mean your exhuast port locations will be higher and spread out farther apart. Out of the box headers may or may not work.

soulbounder

I've done some research on the rocket block and that's what I will most likely end up going with. The features are just what I'm looking for and it's really not all that much more than a normal block. Some of the accessories may cost a little more because I would probably end up going with Stef's Oil Pan. But I think it will all be worth it in the long run. As far as headers go, there is a guy about 30 miles from me that builds custom headers so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Heck, there's supposedly one of the best head porters in the country living maybe 10 miles from my house. That's what I've heard at least. But the guy must be doing something right because he has his own flywheel dyno. I just have two last questions, then I'll quit. Are you happy with your Crower bottom end and what main caps are you running? Thanks.

85_ZED28

Awesome Monty, you're my hero :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:
Are you gonna keep the vette looking stock, that would be soooo cool, ultimate sleeper!, well, I guess the exaust note would probably give it away, just put like 8 mufflers on it or something

Damn I wish I was rich

B4Ctom1

"get *****" with a billet fabrication pan they have a deal worked out with titan oil pumps. get the pump/get the pan at a discount, get the pan/get the pump at a discount. both companies produce thier products in tandem to give you a great package. both products are outstanding.

Monty

Soulbounder,

I have a Stef's custom aluminum pan as well, I just don't usually mention when I describe the availiable oil pan options for the Iron Eagle/Rocket block because alot of people are turned off by the $600 cost. I also have the Titan billet Pro 1000 pump as well, but a most people don't see the value in a $700 wet sump pump when you can pick up a a Melling for $55. As B4ctom1 mentioned, Titan and Billet Fabrication make make a good package. The Titan pump is larger than a standard cast iron pump so I had to mod my Stef's pan a little to make it fit. The Billet Fab is designed for the Titan.

In my opinion Crower is among the top 3 or 4 crankshaft and rod manufacturers. I wouldn't use anything else. Even with a 4.0" stroke, my crank only weighs 44 lbs, that's about 10lbs lighter than a cast GM 3.48" crank. They are the largest producer of aftermarket cranks. Crower, Bryant, and LA Enterprises are the only cranks I use, their machine work and finishing process are better than the other stuff I've seen.

I'm using the splayed billet steel maincaps that came with the block. I did have ARP build me a custom stud/bolt kit for it though, they now have a part number for it so you won't have to buy each individual bolt, washer and nut like I did.

85_ZED28, Yes, the Vette looks 100% stock from the outside and other than Autometer gauges and a stereo the interior is restored to stock as well. You'd be surprised at how mellow the engine sounds at idle and crusing around. I've had it out on the street a couple of times and it's quiter than most other "hot" cars out there. My goal has been to maintain a stock appearance while the mechanicals of the car - engine, suspension, transmission, brakes, etc - are modified and improved to current performance standards.

RMK

Monty,

Any chance of posting some videos of the car out and about?

Robert

Monty

It's a good possibility. Right now, I only have a digital camera that takes up to 15 second snippets of video. that's what I used to take a couple of viseos when we were dyno testing. However, my wife and I are about to buy a digital video camera, and I've made a camera mount for my car. So I could probably have some within the next couple of weeks.

johnsjj2

Counting the days.............

jimmbo

if
anyone knows
a little white supra from schaumburg ask him how he did
the last time he came to rockford


i think he was extremely embarresed that his 70,000 dollar supra
making 800 hp got waxed by a pile of a camaro!


i let him remain nameless
unless he comes forward

redcamaro83

OMMFG.
i'm e-mailing this to hot rod and car craft today

redcamaro83

hey monty what are the latest numbers?

89ProchargedROC

That car makes more that 800hp

The supra wasn't too much slower than the camaro he got beat by...he just didn't believe it was that fast

You are talking about that blue 86 with like 3 stages of juice right?

rx7speed

man I bring this post back after being dead for about a month and now it just will not die

redcamaro83

i'm glad you did
otherwise i might have tried to race a white corvette or two. lol
any people want to get together for a cruise session down lake shore dr and by the 63rd street beach before the weather changes?

Monty

redcamaro83,

Thanks for emailng Hot Rod, it would be neat to see my car in a magazine. I still need to get it painted before it would be magazine worthy, but that's jsut another month or so away. The last dyno run we made yielded 1189hp and 998 ft lbs at 18psi at 6900rpm on 93 octane. That was close enough to my goal of 1200hp/1000ta, so we called it a day. They had another engine waiting to get on the dyno, and I had already delayed them about 3 days due to an oil pressure problem I initially had.

I doubt you'd have much to worry about, the car's performance will come nowhere near what the power would indicate. The engine's mainly just for my own personal achievement, show and conversation. The rear end still maintains the Corvette IRS, albiet with upgraded, heavy duty forged parts, 30 spline yokes and spindles and 1350 ujoints (as opposed to the original 10 spline yokes/spindles and 1310 ujoints). Also, I still have street tires on it, no slicks, so it's intentionally traction limited to help keep the rear end in one piece.

Mark305TBI

Awww... that's no fun . You should get a set of ET Streets and just replace the rear with a 9" or 12-bolt, whenever it lets go. I'm sure you haven't spent nearly enough money, yet .

rx7whoreboy

I agree

I mean you have no real use for that IRS do you?

Monty

Sure, it's a street car, and the front and rear suspension is all aftermarket "road race" type stuff - adjustable composite transverse springs, tubular control arms, poly pushings, larger sway bars, adjustable shocks, etc. The car is getting 18" HRE's or Fiske's and 315 rear, 275 front tires. Probably either Michelin, Yokohama, or Toyo road racing tires. The car will pull over 1.0 lateral g's.

Mark305TBI

I suppose that works, too. Not quit my cup of tea though...

redcamaro83

monty how's it goiong?
btt by the way

Monty

Just tweaking a few details of my installation. I redid some of my fuel system lines to simplify and clean up the appearance. I also cleaned up some wiring for the EFI, transmission controller, and fuel pump controllers.

I've only put about 400 miles on it with the TT setup, so I'm still breaking it in (new engine and new transmission). It'll be next spring before I get it to the track. I had hoped to get some runs in this Fall but I've been busy at work and traveling, so I haven't had the time.

dunerida82

I am gonna go out on the limb here, and blatently say that "Monty Owes us Pics!" Whos with me? Nice Monty. Crazy Nutty Awesome.

Kingtal0n

Another good example of what most of us could achieve if we sold our house, cat, wife, dog, snake, computer, etc... and put the money towards a huge twin turbo project.

And some of us our crazy enough like that to do it too

oh, and show us some pics hehe i want to see somthing worth more than everything I own put together.

RMK

I'd prefer a video

Monty

There are pics of everything on my website. What do you want pics of that aren't already shown?

As far as video is concerned, what do you want a video of? My wife is due in March, so I definitely plan on getting a new digital video camera prior to that, so I could probably get some video before spring. I still need to fabricate a camera mount.

RMK

Monty, some video of you doing one of your 1/4 runs at 160mph would be nice as would a video of seeing youre nose pushed into your face with the G-force

I'd like to see it going from a roll on the highway. That would be impressive.

Also. I sent the adoption papers about a week ago for you to sign and return, have they arrived yet?

Robert

Monty

LOL!

I'll work on getting some video's soon. Thanks for the interest in my project, for some reason my wife doesn't share the same enthusiasm.

redcamaro83

hey monty how close are you to chicago like say 7600 south?
i want to see you car in person.

Monty

I'm not sure where 7600 South is. I'm not very familiar with the city.

I'm up in Park Ridge, near Touhy and Greenwood if you're familiar with the area.

I've had several guys from the various forums stop by, you're welcome as well. I'm always interested in meeting fellow 'car guys'.

Guido

For some reason the women never DO seem interested do they? Shame! LOL

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

is this vette light blue and fetured in some mag not to long ago or is that where you got the idea from? cause i read about some c5 vette i think, stock motor, twin turboed with 1250 hp, just surious to know about where you got the inspiration from monty

rx7speed

least it wasn't me bringing this thread back from the dead

don't remember if it was addressed either

but since I don't feel like reading umbteen billion post

how the hell do you have heads good enough to flow ?

89ProchargedROC

Yes, monty was inspired by John Meany's light blue vette article in Popular Hot Rodding

Monty has CNC Dart 18* heads

he has flow sheets on his website

TurboRamJet

Well isn't that just nice, I did twin turbo in my Ultima GTR http://www.ultimacars.com/ powered with ram jet 350 SBC setup.. simple little crate mods. I was dyno'd around @850 hp with a twin turbo set up from BBS turbo kit.

I have around $ 10 k into my motor, $25 k in my car.... I will drag any supra from a stand still start... yes my car is road legal. yes it runs pump gas. can you do that?

Sure Blame your rolling start on your tires! You know it's because your toyota is wothless with out your laggin boost!

running mid 8's on mickey's

Montey your Vette rules! if I could have found 1 in decent shape I would have used one, but my GTR kit works quite nicely. It is a shame there are so many supras out there talking trash, I could build 2 or 3 of my cars for what they put into 1 of theirs.... I'm here to represent SBC!!!!! BRING EM ON!!! CHEVY RULES!!!

TurboedTPI

Anyone from chi-town ever hear of "marco" or "white supra"? He has the fastest street driven supra ever, 1520rwhp! (i think thats like 1800 hp at the crank) The car looks bone stock, wheels and all. The car is driven from chicago to a wisconsin dragstrip and back(60 miles each way). This year, it should be low 8's-high 7's. Now thats impressive. Oh ya, its full weight too. Power/heated seats and a/c, 3600 lbs or so.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Leave it to a supra guy to run a full second slower then his weight/hp suggests that he should. You sure that he doesn't run 11's/12's like every other high hp supra?

TurboedTPI

I forgot you had an 1800 hp/7 sec. car, that you drive to and from the dragstrip. Oh, but its an import so it must suck, right? Give the guy some respect. Even if it is an import, its still impressive.