Supercharger cooling without an intercooler? - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

anesthes · 08-05-2002, 07:16 AM

I'm running a vortech, and the thing gets hotter than hell. I don't really want to plumb an intercooler in the car.

I'm wondering about wather/alc/co2 injection, how the systems work, etc.

Anyone have any examples?

I did search, but didn't find anything.

-- Joe

ATOMonkey · 08-05-2002, 08:46 AM

I've heard of Alcohol injection. It works pretty well. So does Water. It cools the combustion event more than the air, so you get kind of the same effect. You can run high hot boost and not have to worry about detonation. From what I understand you just inject down stream of the blower and let the air do the atomization. I know that our NA tow truck engine even benefited from water injection.

anesthes · 08-05-2002, 09:37 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the response.. I'm looking at either that, or like I said a small shot of N20..

Does anyone have any examples or kits I can reference? I'm not that educated on this matter, but I'd like to be.

-- Joe

ATOMonkey · 08-05-2002, 09:54 AM

NOS and Edelbrock both just made plate systems for the TPI. Some companies even make N20 systems that replace the stock TB. Check out Jegs.com or Summitracing.com. Hot Rod Chevy High Performance and other mags have advertisements for the stuff all the time too.

anesthes · 08-05-2002, 11:54 AM

Hey,

Well I'd think a fogger in the plumbing would be better than a plate system. Wouldn't you want it as far away from the TB as possible?

-- Joe

paul_huryk · 08-05-2002, 01:48 PM

Water/Alcohol injection is the easiest way to cool down the intake air without going crazy.

Paxton used to include WI with its TPI kits way back when - it allowed more power without detonation than without it, which made the cars quicker. Paxton did get the power, but if you ran out of liquid, serious damage could result. Paxton has since included Boost Retard ignition from MSD, replacing the water injection.

A friend just put a Powerdyne 4.5 psi kit on his 1997 LT1 TA, and he is putting a water injection kit on the car (even at such a low boost level) as a fail safe against detonation and the hope of a few more hp. If it cools the air intake charge 60 degrees, it will add about 5% more power (on a 360hp car, that adds up to almost 20hp). The one thing I suggested is that when the car goes back to the shop to be tuned (Cartek in NJ installed the blower) in a week, it should be tuned without the WI for the simple reason that if the WI isn't working, major detonation damage will result. It will be added later so it will be an air charge cooler. Kind of a double insurance policy (not to mention the extra power) in my mind.

Supposedly a mixture of 60% water/40% denatured alcohol is the best ratio for cooling (from what I hear).

anesthes · 08-05-2002, 02:25 PM

Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?

I'd be curious what the paxton injection setup looked like.

-- Joe

JAYDUBB · 08-05-2002, 03:51 PM

Try http://www.turbobuick.com . Those guys know a LOT about water injection.

Make · 08-05-2002, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?

also check out
http://www.aquamist.co.uk

.

Gumby · 08-05-2002, 05:06 PM

I really dont know much but just thinking...
Would a ram air hood work well with one???

Lots of cold fresh air comming in; unless you live in the desert.

But water injection sounds neat.

88GTAinRI · 08-05-2002, 05:23 PM

Ram air isn't going to help. The heat is caused by the blower, packing the air.

Greasemonkey · 08-05-2002, 06:41 PM

www.smcenterprises.com
TR guys like to run this kit. Costs about $350 which is a pretty good deal for what you get.

anesthes · 08-05-2002, 07:48 PM

Interesting.. I wonder what the dangers associated with it are..

Thanks!

drive it · 08-06-2002, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by anesthes
Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?

I'd be curious what the paxton injection setup looked like.

-- Joe

Check out www.carrollsupercharging.com They have a water/alcohol inj. system and their site explains it pretty good and shows their setup.
That's what I'm using and it does work!

sprchgdirocz · 11-04-2002, 01:38 AM

i have the paxton on my 305 tpi, and all the injection system is, is a hose into the winshield wiper fluid tank, then it runs down to a winshield wiper pump, and from there into a nozzle that sprays into the intake, the pumps power is off 1 IGN source and the Neg comes from a hobbs switch on one of the vacume nipples, and thats how it works, there is some smaller details with it like one way valves, and wut not, ask and ill send u more details, i even have all the instructions if u want part details

83 Crossfire TA · 11-04-2002, 03:35 AM

More details or scans of the directions would be great.

WRT to the conversation, water injection's primary advantage is not cooling. Do the math, it doesn't make sense. I worked it out when we were tinkering with water injection on my brothers car and found that at 8psi boost on his 302 he'd need 160lb/hour of water to cool the intake charge down 80*. We also found that up to about 30# per hour (more then most water injection units inject, we were able to do it fairly precisely because we were using one of the auxiliary channels of the haltech to trigger an actual injector starting at about 2psi boost) he saw no measureable increase in power (judged by track times).

The reason is that the primary way that water injection helps is as an anti-detonant, it's like running a much higher fuel octane (his car has about 8.6:1 compresson and aluminum heads, it doesn't see any timing retard or detonation which is why he didn't gain anything).

As far as I can tell, the alcohol actually lessens the effect. The only advantage to running alcohol is that it is a fuel if your fuel delivery is marginal, and it keeps the water from freezing in the winter.

anesthes · 11-04-2002, 07:15 AM

Interesting.. So in your tests, it really didnt cool down the temp of the air. But how did it decrease detonation? Was the actual cyl temps lower?

The only. thing about spraying water that I find interesting is, what happens when you try to compress the mist. Wouldn't your c/r go up?

-- Joe

Raiden · 11-04-2002, 12:17 PM

I have been thinking of either getting an old typhoon intercooler or fabricating some sort of intercooler for my paxton setup. I know that a company sells a good cold water injection setup: carol water injection. IT runs for about 3 bills. I have been thinking of using a 50 shot of nos, but i really want to say away from the giggle gas. I do not know where to find aftermarket intercoolers?

anesthes · 11-04-2002, 01:31 PM

3 bills is a lot considering it may or may not make a difference.

And i'm not sure that NOS is a wonderful idea either. I was thinking about it, but how would you adjust for a/f ratio?? Youd have to plumb a wet system, or try to figure out how to increase fuel pressure with a dry system - which wouldnt work cuz you do that with the FMU for the supercharger, or at least I do.. so..???

-- Joe

Raiden · 11-04-2002, 02:07 PM

If your going to use nos, increase your fmu. You can either go to a dyno or make your own wide band. If you have the standard vortech fmu, you can purchase plates to increase or decreas the ratio of the fmu from 4/1 to 12/1. I got the kit and it cost 30 bucks.

83 Crossfire TA · 11-04-2002, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by anesthes
Interesting.. So in your tests, it really didnt cool down the temp of the air. But how did it decrease detonation? Was the actual cyl temps lower?

The only. thing about spraying water that I find interesting is, what happens when you try to compress the mist. Wouldn't your c/r go up?

Well, in reverse order... static compression ratio is the ratio of the cylinder, gasket volume and combustion chamber volume relative to just the combustion chamber and any other volume with the piston up. dynamic compression ratio is just that plus any thing that will modify that filling (different cams, supercharging, better scavenging exaust...). Neither have anything to do with what gets pumped through it.

WRT our testing, water decreases detonation the same way that egr does, by not burning. In both cases you're dilluting the A/F mixture with something that does not burn which slows the burn and decreases the tendancy for the mixture to spontaniously ignite. The advantage of water is that it does have some cooling value and that it is a liquid so that you can inject much more of it without replacing the space that the A/F mixture normally will take up.

The reason that Alcohol doesn't really add to the effect over water is that your're basically adding something that has an octane rating of about 121, to dillute the A/F. It will still detonate, just not as easily where water will not at all. Second problem (for some people this is an advantage) is that alcohol is a fuel and your setup will have to be tuned differenty or it will go rich when you turn the injection on.

83 Crossfire TA · 11-04-2002, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Raiden
I have been thinking of either getting an old typhoon intercooler or fabricating some sort of intercooler for my paxton setup.

the only real problem with the sy/ty intercooler is that it is too small. It approaches being a restriction at the sy/ty's stock 280hp.

Raiden · 11-04-2002, 10:16 PM

Crossfire, do you know where i can get an aftermarket intercooler?

83 Crossfire TA · 11-05-2002, 01:21 AM

depending on what you want...

Well, just about any serious turbo shop should be able to help you out... this guy is one of the first that I would try:

www.toohighpsi.com/Main/jimscoolers.htm

Kingtal0n · 11-06-2002, 11:32 PM

Water doesnt squeeze. keep that in mind... its not necessarily GOOD for an engine. lots of times it will pit the pistons with pinholes. times have changed, and its getting more reliable, but adding water to an engines fuel supply is never a really rock solid good idea.

CamaroFreak87 · 11-07-2002, 11:29 AM

I didn't know that isoprophyl alcohol was a fuel? if rubbing alcohol's octane rating is 121, what's the octane rating of methanol alcohol? I've never seen anyone use isoprophyl alcohol as a fuel before. only seen people burn methanol.

dgoodhue · 11-26-2002, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA
the only real problem with the sy/ty intercooler is that it is too small. It approaches being a restriction at the sy/ty's stock 280hp.

I disagree, I have a syclone. With an auxillary I/C (large tranny cooler and the pump wired to come on before it is heat soaked) it doesn't become a problem until the 11's. The stock I/C is also mounted in the worst possible place above the turbo and downpipe. That beening said it probably isn't the most cost effective solution as they usually sell for 150-200 used (your not going to find one in a junkyard) plus you will need an aux. i/c and water pump (another $200 if bought new) plus the complexity of running the wiring and water lines.