fast82z

iTrader: (1)

I don't have my stockers in front of me, but I want to say the crank was 8" and the water pump maybe 7" or a touch smaller.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hmm i didnt measure mine yet but it looks to be same size or waterpump pulley slightly larger in diameter! That cant be good

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looks like i may need a meth kit. Seeing 25 deg rise in temps at 12 psi and i havent done a full 3 gear pull yet. Just part of 3rd

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

woohoo! welcome to meth injection. looks like were gona be buddies. Interested to see how your mounting yours. remember if you putting yours in after the TB (intake side) you need a solenoid. But since your going to be seeing positive boost before the TB as well you still might need one. Your going to love it. Ppl inject before the compressor so no need for a solenoid and the meth/water actually seals up the turbine compressor housing better (tighter tolerances) so you will see an increase in boost as well

Ive had mine installed for months but I haven't used it bc I haven't touched the NOS yet. Only been to the track 1 time this year and The motor had some valve float issues. Once the NA motor is good Im going to try a 50hp shot and then 100hp to prob 150 depending how it works.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I got a 4th gen washer fluid bottle in the nose i may use as a cell for meth. Planning on dual nozze after intercooler but before iat sensor in my main feed pipe. I got a pump. Debating on using it or not.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well in havent updated in awhile. I didnt do meth kit yet i added a nitrous plate system for launching and turbo spool. Hope to test that out tomorrow. Installed the 12 bolt rear with 3.42's and soon after had an axle leak. Turns out seal was bad and the bearing was shot so i had to get a new bearing assembly and install that.

Discovered gas leaking down my tank so i had to drop it and tighten all the fittings. Some reason they were loose.

And lastly i replaced my old b&m shifter with a turbo action cheetah gate style shifter. It looks good and functions great so far. Its so smooth its scary. I didnt think it was moving the trans linkage at first but it did. Flushed tranny and refilled fluid. Its finally ready to test again.
Planning on tracking it tomorrow if weather clears and if tonights test driving works out

skinny z

Good luck.
I hope to make my FIRST pass of the season on Sunday, weather and car permitting.

Andrew91GT

Very nice. Good luck!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah my last outing wasnt good. I spent several passes trying to get it to spool off line on 2 step but failed. Just not enough rpm even with 36 deg timing and fairly lean at 2-4 psi and 3200-3600 rpm. So the 75 shot hopefully wakes converter up to 4000 like it used to be and turbos will startup sooner. I got pills to 200hp if i need em lol either way its gotta move out. Over winter i think i will restall depending how this spray goes. I need to up my boost few lbs too. Still on 12-13. Want to see 15-16

Andrew91GT

Make sure you do your due diligence. Check the hot and cold side for leaks. Make sure the wastegates are staying closed and so is the BOV. Make sure your timing is actually what you're commanding. To get the turbos lit faster you could also advance the cam 2-4 degrees if you have the piston to valve clearance. On my outlaw 10.5 car I couldn't spool the 114mm turbo at ALL on the transbrake... advance the cam 4 degrees and no problems. Yes, I did have to remap the fuel tables, it changed them considerably.

What is the cranking compression on the engine? Advancing the cam will increase that, which will build more torque and help you push through the converter enough to get the exhaust energy to get the turbos lit.

Andrew91GT

If the converter is too loose, you'll have problems on the big end with slippage, but I'm sure you knew that.

Andrew91GT

If you dynoed the car n/a, what timing would it want? 36 degrees might be too much, and you might be losing torque. Just a thought.... obviously every car is different.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No idea on cranking compression. Old setup was low like 155 but that was done cold. Now with bigger cam is likely lower but car still feels torquey when driving around. Actually more responsive which is nuts for heads cam this big

No tbrake just a soft limiter two step i was trying.

Old combo had smaller housings on turbos and small heads so more power around stall speed. It stalled 4000-4200 now its only 3500 at best. Cam doesnt really start til 4000 so i just need abit more converter

I dont wanna advance cam as i want to keep top end where its at with these heads but i havent dynod it to determine exactly where my rpm range is. Just seems to take fuel all the way to 6400 so its pullling hard to beyond that. Should be good to 6800-7000.

This setup has taken 4-5 deg more timing so far compared to old afr heads. I find that ok since every afr car i seen takes less timing than other heads. I am at 36-37 at converter rpms in effort to build more torque against converter trying to squeeze bit more rpm out of it. I have started with 26-28 deg and worked up with no noticeable change. No knock. Its showing few psi at the line which i never was able to do before but just not enough ***** to spool up. 500-800 more rpm and it will be ok.

I tried alot of timing and fuel changes in effort to spool off converter but it simply wont do it

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well some improvements but still kinda disappointing. Nitrous did help spool time but still its lazy. 1.74 60 was best. Still needs converter. I was on 13 psi tune but still must be low on timing. I keep adding and it takes it but my chip burners werent working yesterday so i could only stay on the set tune. In full street tune and gear it went 10.52 at 137. But had a new issue. Hitting a wall at 6200 ish rpn like some kind of limiter. No idea why i dont have a limiter set til 7k rpm. My tach isnt off that much because it has gone to 7 k in the burnout. First gear. So no idea what that is. Air fuel looks good and same with timing.

Shouldnt be ignition or valvefloat but you never know. That sucked.

So on a setup that may weigh 3650-3700 lbs i cant really complain. Last setup on my skinnies and drag wheels which is 80-100 lbs less mass and also less piping and exhaust weights plus no 24 lb nitrous bottle etc. This weather i had gone 9.86 at 141 old setup being lighter on 14 psi and i know that combo had more in the tune. So its hard to say what my new setup is doing. Definately all top end and less response right now but converter is off which aint helping. Old setup had T60's so they spooled faster.

When I had old setup with T70's it slowed down abit. Summer time took 17 psi to go 140 mph and that was without the skinnies so closer to street weight. So hard to say how much is left in the new setup but i hope adding timing is all it needs. Air fuel is as lean as i will take it

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Looks like you have a whole lot of sorting out to do with the new combination. However it appears the potential is there. With me after a dyno run or a trip down the track it takes me 24 hours or more to figure out what happened and my next move.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah to be honest i really didnt expect to have all these issues. Just goes with the trade i guess. I do believe potential is there however. 500-700 more rpms and alot more power left to play with should easily get me back in the 140's on only 13 psi. Not a bad deal

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

It's hard to believe that n2o didn't help much. You look to be in about the same boat as me this past season, plenty good mph but missing tenths in the 60' alone. I still manage 1.7-1.8 60's on the 3psi I can get. Looked back at some slips when I was all motor running mid 11's, and was pulling consistent 1.60 60's. I do remember KILLING power when I switched to 8.5:1 from 9.75:1, specifically in the under 4000rpm area. I'm going to pick up some pistons soon to bump me back to 10.5:1 so hopefully the car can run low 11's n/a instead of the 13.3's I get currently n/a.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It helps a bunch over nothing at all but its not gonna do all the work by itself. I was only spray a 41 jet which should be close to a 75 shot. I wanna try a 100-125 next but track closed for season so looks like i will have to wait until next yr

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I tested car with 6 psi boost and was able to turn 6300+ rpm but on 15 psi it hit a soft limiter at 6000 so i thought maybe spark plug gap. Tested tighter gap to no effect....

Well popped valve covers off and borrowed a friends spring testing tool. Turns out valvesprings are low on seat pressure because they likely are installed too high in height. Must have been miscom with the cam and heads guy. I am alittle upset at this since now i gotta set them up right. Head guy asked me to talk to cam guy and cam guy said he took care of it. Suppose to be 180 lbs seat and 1.87" height or so. I think they are at advertised 1.95" height as my measurements show closer to 140-150 lbs.

Oh well. Time to get busy doing spring shims

Good news is with valve float or surge, early in my powerband my fat car went 137 on 13 psi. Assuming no float and a rising hp curve to 6500 and shift by 6800, this thing should be moving well into the 140's. I see 150's in the spring time after i get the issues sorted out and new converter. Too bad this year is over

built91Z28

I dont know anything about tuning a turbo motor, but I do know the first time I took my car to the track I had valve float caused by the lash being set way too loose. Tightened the lash and ran 10 mph quicker in the quarter. It should definitely pick up nicely once the float is gone.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Float was killing mine by 4500-5000rpms. Mine were brand new eddy heads out of the box and I was getting float that early. Took me a year to figure it out after I replaced the whole ignition system and got a new carb. Good to know u figured it out!

U did test with the isolators on in the installed height and at open height? Wat kind of spring tester was it? I hope u were using one in a arbor press or those expensive ones that is its own press.

Calculate how much shim u need but u will prob need more than .060". A .060" shim got me about 20 lbs on the seat and 40lbs open but my spring pressures are for flat tappet cam. With a 130 seat and 330 open.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its a moroso spring tester that tests the seat pressure by mounting on the rocker. I only needed to get an idea what the pressures were. If the install height was so far off then pressures would be noticeable and they are.

I know what height i need and its only a matter of popping locks off and shimming.Cam was spec'd for 180 lbs seat and 1.87" height. Its gonna be tight to bind tho

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Only reason I say is that those leverage ones of the rocker stud are not very accurate. It would be easier to use offset locks instead of shimming them. I just shimmed all mine and it was not fun and perhaps ruining the valve stem seals are no good. Offset locks woul make the job a snap and then if u really needed to put shims under you could.

You gota do the math and figure out how much spring u will need before hand as well as doing some testing to verify the results. U might find a bad valve spring on one of the valves but need to check stem/seal to retainer clearances Yadda Yadda which u already know. That way if u Dnt have enough clearance for shims then gettin new springs would be in order.

Good luck!

Andrew91GT

The valvetrain will typically be happier if you shim the springs close to bind. Make sure you don't actually bind though you are going to break a lot of stuff!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Seems accurate to me. It already has offset locks i believe but positive offset to bring height in at 1.95 or so. That gives 150 lb seat and thats what the leverage tester read. My buddy just did his springs and it gave pretty accurate results. So we shall see how it goes. I could do regular locks to take out some height but it wont be enough. And i need locks that are recessed for lash caps for clearance. Not a hundred percent sure tho i need to measure them. The springs originally came in at 1.89 and 1.91 intake/exhaust before cam and head guy talked. I am thinking he used .050 offsets to bring height up by accident or miscommunication. Just a minor set back

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The good news is it sounds like you are on the right track to solve the problem. Things should be interesting next Spring.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I was hoping to run dyno day nov 15 but i doubt i will finish this car by then haha. We shall see

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well this is interesting. Valve spring height was actually correct. But pressure was low. Upon further investigation my valve was rocking in the guide. Looks like i have bad guide wear. Heads need to come off and get repaired. After talking to cam guy and looking at my lash caps for rocker pattern he thinks my pushrods are too long. I went by the method of close to center but narrrowest sweep pattern and apparently i should just have centered it.

So somehow the accelerated guide wear must have led to valve float and that just compounded the problem. Now springs must be shot since pressure was low. So i gotta replace them. But i am nervous this will happen again. I didnt think i was off on pushrod length. I spent the most time on that. I will need to measure again and try to center things better. It was just a mm or 2 off center. I have run patterns like that before with no issue. Just very disappointing.

Andrew91GT

Valve springs die early because of excess heat, among other things. I got my rockers modded for spring oiling to help them live. Not sure if that helps you or not...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I have also seen springs right out of the box that do not meet specs.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I would do alittle reading on mid lift geometry before you start doing the setup. It does not matter where the mark on the valve stem is or how narrow it is basically. Mid lift geometry should be the best way of determining pushrod length and valve train geometry. Also depending on the rockers your using u might not be able to get the correct or best geometry or wear pattern on the stems. Not all rockers are created Ew
Equal and they are not all the same. Can't even tell u how many different rocker geometries/designs there are for BBF rockers which all derectly affect valve train geometry.

Also are you sure your not operating in the bad harmonics range for the springs? 5 th wave I believe is the bad one. That will whipe out new springs very fast.

Just saying things to consider.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Sorry if I asked this before but are you running a stud girdle but that really helps with valve train geometry. Ud be surprised how much ARP rocker studs flex with flat tappet spring rates. Even if your setting up the rockers good they could be flexing causing excessive wear.

skinny z

It looks like you have no shortage of opinions or advice on the subject.
I'll relate some personal experience that you and I have touched on at one time or another.
Brodix headed 355 w/ 290° hydraulic roller cam. This engine was designed as an all round cruiser with an emphasis on 1/4 mile performance. Redline 7000.
The guides were wiped out after a few thousand miles.
Disassembly found that the installed spring height was incorrect (1.8" vs 1.9" as supplied directly from Brodix) and the assumption was that this caused the rapid guide wear. That seemed to make sense.
After a rebuild and correctly setting up the springs and geometry, the engine lasted only another few thousand miles before the same thing happened.
It was eventually determined that at high rpm, 5500 and up, there was significant valve train component seperation (along the lines of .10"-.20" !) and this caused all kinds of chaos. It also killed the top end performance.
In this case, it was found to be the fault of the OEM hydraulic roller (a seldom documented statistic) which allowed the lifter to lose hydraulic pressure at high rpm. In your case, I believe your using an upgraded lifter so although you may not be able to point the finger directly there, you may consider the overall stability of your valve train.
You had suggested that the "... the accelerated guide wear must have led to valve float and that just compounded the problem. ...". In my case, it was the other way around. Uncontrolled valve train motion at high rpm and from there it just unravelled.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I am kind of stumped. I did read into midlift geometry but also various other methods. Seems everyone has their own opinion on the subject. From an engineering standpoint you want valve tip to be pressed down at the center. This applies all the force straight down in the direction of the valve motion. So a narrow center sweep makes sense to me.

I do not run a girdle. Not sure i can fit one. I dont see how that would be an issue as i have turned rpm before without issue on other setups. I have morel lifters which are designed for high rpm use so it shouldnt be a lifter but you never can be sure.

My cam guy setup the springs for the cam and i wouldnt think it be operating in a bad harmonic region but i will double check.

If install height was right and springs at the right pressure then i shouldnt have had valve float. Doesnt make sense to me. It shouldnt have floated and caused guide wear. Too long of a pushrod kinda makes sense to me as it would load the valve more on one side, perhaps loading the stem against the guides and slowly wearing out.

Hot springs loosing pressure may cause issue but i appeared to have good oil to rockers. Maybe not enough?

Its frustrating. So many possible causes i dont know what one is the issue and definately dont want this to occur again

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Agreed on not wanting it to happen again. Gets old real fast. I must have done preload on my lifters 15 times in 3 weeks but had to crank the motor over from under the car bc if clearance issues so it was a 2 man job.

From what I understand from midlift geometry is that it does not need to be centered in the valve stem. I would look into all things.

Also with the springs. I got heads assembled by edelbrock for my setup and cam yet I got valve float at 4500 rpms with a mild flat tappet within specs for the springs etc. I checked the springs and all were close to spec yet it wasn't enough spring for the cam and large valves. Kinda scary when someone like edelbrock doesn't know there $hit and build send stuff out that doesn't perform to what they claim. These heads are performer rpms and where suppose to rev to 5500 with there cam which I did not use but was barely more radical.

How are u preloading the lifters? Are u spinning the oil pump when doing preloads? Preloads can affect valve float and also hammer the springs bad if there is too little preload.

And stud girdles are worth there weight in gold! Even more than main stud girdles. Not even kidding u, arp 7/16" rocker studs will flex with 330lb open pressures.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Intake Closing exhaust opening method. Morel lifters require 1 full turn with 7/16 studs. I trust my cam guy that the springs are enough for the combo so i am almost convinced it was guide problems first. I have run his cams and spring recommendation with success on my 383

Girdle will likely help but i know guys who have no issues with solid rollers at more lift more rpm and more pressure on springs than i and they dont have a girdle. Plus i dont think i could even fit one

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Havent touched car much until this past weekend and last night. Basically discovered worn guides in head and have 2 score marks in cylinder 6 and 1 in cyl 5. Light scratch in cyl 5 but the one in cyl 6 is pretty deep imo. Hope it doesnt need bored out.

But engine is now out of car. Will update this thread since Webshots closed down and i have to rehost all my pics on photobucket so i will need to relink them here.

Engine will be torn down and inspected. Shall see what it needs and what caused the marks. Hope the piston is ok. Ran fine before tearing down just had a bit of blowby, moreso than i remembered when new but ran hard just not as hard as i hoped.

Now need to decide if i am gonna change valvetrain and kmember. Kinda want tubular setup for more room. But its alot of money i dont wanna spend on the car depending what it needs.

Plan to open ring gap a touch more this time and run 20-25 psi to see what block can do. May look into shaft rockers and different springs with more pressure and ofcourse align pushrod geometry better. Would like solid roller to eliminate valvefloat possibility all together but i have 300$ retainers that only fit one type of spring so far and i know it be difficult to sell. Frustrating since i have no idea what caused what to fail. Guides wear first and cause float? Or did floating cause guides to wear?

Also planning on ls1 411 ecm swap, restalling converter and throwing in a trans brake

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I'm in the same boat with the kmember. I love my UMI tubular front arms and all the back stuff. I would love to fabricate my own kmember out of mild steel probably but make the bottom removable so the pan can be dropped without removal of the the engine.

Thing I Dnt like about aftermarket kmembers is sometimes u need to purchase extra stuff to fit them like upper spring mounts etc. hence why
Making your own would be nice.

Not sure about the float causing guide wear but float causes all kinds of issues. I would prob go solid cam. I've been having lots of issues with Hyd cams lately.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Bummer Orr better to find it now then to have the whole motor be junk. Don't give up on it, imo shaft mounted rockers are the only way to go if you want high RPM.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Just trying to prevent the issue again you know. To the best of my knowledge and the cam grinder's opinion, the spring package is adequate for the usage. Thinks guides wore due to pushrod length and geometry issues and that killled springs. He may be right. I gotta really look into it. I got a nice billet cam and expensive lifters and would hate to lose my *** on resale of these items to fund solid roller stuff. But it may be worth the power gained and Eliminating float probability. I may end up doing a different spring package for more pressure since i plan on more boost anyway.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That is a bummer. Let's hope this all works out without costing you a small fortune.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Car has already been a small fortune. I should have bought a c6 z06. Lol oh well, i accepted it and deal with it. Its my hangar queen

skinny z

Maybe it's because I've been going through this with my own engine and a fellow racer's too, but this valve guide thing is troublesome. We've investigated spring pressures, geometry and hydraulic lifters trying to find a cause. I've only got a few thousand miles on my newest build using Comps XFI lobes (nothing outrageous) after having lost the guides in my Vortecs. Also another engine with a bigger cam using XFI lobes after two sets of guides went away in some Brodix heads but we haven't logged enough miles to provide any comparisons.
Tough luck with your troubles Orr. One thing you have to keep in mind though is that you're into territory where a lot of what you're involved in pretty much makes you a pioneer (or nearly so anyway). Certainly not in the daily driver category despite driving it daily if you know what I mean.
Good luck.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well these heads were relatively a new item to hit the market but the base casting itself has been around awhile. Nothing out of the ordinary for a 23 deg head but i may be the only one out there using hyd roller on this head. Port shape requires offset rockers, another item not commonly seen. Using the biggest lobes you can find in comp cams catalog . So yeah it may be pioneering, hence why i am considering scrapping the rockers and getting shaft rockers. Hopefully they align better

skinny z

Among the things I've learned about building horsepower is that there's a big difference between building it inexpensively and building it to last. Another thing (and it's no revelation to anyone I'm sure) is that as horsepower goes up, longevity goes down. Having said that, having the guides wiped out in a couple thousand miles (as in the Bordix headed engine mentioned earlier) is more a result of mis-engineering, an inappropriate selection of parts and perhaps an error in the assembly process as well. I'll accept a 50% life expentancy but not 10%.
Even the C6 guys are retreiving needle bearings from rocker arms that have disintegrated with abuse. So you wouldn't be immune from repairs even if you had bought a Vette!

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I still have not got my engine together, but I have the world product 235 heads and ran into port vs pushrods issues. I thought about offset rockers but after talking to some local guys with big inch sbcs they suggested the only way to get some life out of the valve train would be a shaft rocker. I think after Christmas I am going to give lgm performance a call. There are some good reviews of these guys over on yellow bullet, they have shaft rockers and guys are liking them.

skinny z

Has anyone considred the twin shaft Yella Terra rocker assemblies?

http://www.yellaterra.com.au/product...goryIdentity=4

The recently acquired LSX 454 that's gone into my friend's 67 Chevelle had the stock rockers replaced with these alminum twin shaft pieces.
I have no experience with them regarding a Gen 1 SBC but they appear to be an interesting part.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Considering my guide wear appears to be on the intake valve only, i have to assume its related to the .150" offset rocker. Only way to clear a 3/8" pushrod with adjustable guideplates. Exhaust rockers are straight up. Thinking shaft style may be more rigid and more suited to the application. I will discuss with my cam guy and my head guy.

1987thirdgen

Any updates on your engine?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Working on a big update here in the next few weeks. Noticed my pics are down so i need to rehost them all and repost them in this thread.

Basically i freshened up motor, sent heads out for valve guide repair and valve job, converting to 24x efi with ls1 computer, tube kmember, new converter, removing nitrous system and added trans brake. Just awaiting the heads and need to install trans brake valvebody