89fbrestor

well i got some more parts and waiting for some stuff to come in the mail.... that would be turbosI'll post pics of everything this weekend after it gets here... i know I'm still at the beginning phase of this build but man I'm excited lol i have a local turbo guy and he said my selection should work out well... i hope i got the right ones

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You may want to pull that improper fuel line before it cracks in a year, causes the engine to go lean and grenade at 800 WHP. Put in proper submersible EFI hose.

Don't listen to Dave about running the 4.11 gears. Yes, turbos don't care about gearing, but engines do. Unless you are running a 6 six speed that you plan to hit all 6 gears in the 1/4 mile then put more reasonable gears in it. I don't think the 5.3L will live at 9-10,000 RPM going through the traps.

I would stick with the Borg Warner S400 unit and upgrade to a Turbonetics 88mm comp wheel for $500 later on. Yeah, go with a reliable turbo for 600+500 = $1,100 that will do 1,500 BHP or call Precision & Turbonetics and spend $3,000 for the same exact turbo.
In the world of turbos, lots of people make money off of others not doing research.

89fbrestor

ok turbo's came today, also got my motor mounts, pcm, my shocks and a few other things but i thought i'd post the turbos before this weekend when i get out in the garage and do some more work because well i'm excited lol
inlet:4"
outlet:2.5"
flange:t3
compressor:.70a/r
turbine:.84a/r
compressor wheel:91mm/61mm
turbine wheel:74.4mm/62mm

89fbrestor

i used "gates submersible fuel line" thanks for the tips.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

My bad. I didn't see any writing so I was guessing you used plain old EFI line.
How much did those turbos run ya? I thought your goal was 800 WHP. Do you think you can do that through a pair of T3 flanges? I would be happy with 550WHP through those flanges.
I just noticed your sig says 4L80E. Those gears are too much for a 3 spd (what you use in the 1/4 mile) and 4.11 rears.
What PCM are you running? Mid 90's GM truck, megaquirt with trans controller, add on trans controller?

89fbrestor

unless i read something very wrong i thought the 4l80e was an over drive trans(turbo 400 with overdrive) the rear gears ... i know i plan on changing them but i got a good deal on the rear end so i jumped on it. the turbos... i've asked as many people as i could and from the info i've gathered i think these will work... i could be wrong i'm no pro and not saying your wrong but i am hoping you are lol quick recap on this build for anyone who chimes in.

5.3 with fresh block, stock crank,rods,pistons and new rings gapped accordingly.
5.3 heads opened up to 2.02, port matched,polished and bowl blended.
better springs, and valves
cam ... best i can get
ls6 or "fast" intake
throttle body to match
water/alcy injection and maybe nitrous
4l80e trans... built up to hold
using hp tuner for the tune
and the 4:11 richmond posi rear(gear can and probably will change before this thing hits the road)

this will be a summer street car.

project89

iTrader: (1)

pull the compressor covers off those turbos and measure the wheels with a caliper im willing to bet thay are

50-55/75mm compressors not 61mm

junk he can make the power he wants threw a set of t3 flanges look at martys car and how much he made with t3 gn turbos

89fbrestor

well either way this works out guys.. its my first turbo build and i honestly do have intentions of upgrading down the road. $500 in turbos if they don't last or make the power i was hoping for isn't huge for a learning experience. the turbos is pretty much the only thing i skimped out on for now.... we'll see and as always THANKS FOR THE INPUT, good or bad for a newbie like me it is appreciated more then you guys might realize.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Marty had low compression mid-80s truck pistons (8.5:1 or lower), race gas, 22+ PSI of boost (kept eating thrust bearings out of turbos in record time), 75HP shot of N20.
Yes, it made power but was a maintenance nightmare. It saw a lot of dyno time to perfect the tune to keep it alive. Without $2,000+ of dyno time it would have never lived that long.
Not trying to take away from the fact that it made HP. It just didn't make it reliably. Everything was on the raged edge. He had the bottom end apart just to check bearings every once in a while. How many of your average Joe builders asking "what turbos should I run" are will to do that? How many have a free dyno and all that time & knowledge to tune? Marty is far smarter than the average car builder. He just came off as "a little bit of this and a little bit of that.............and bang.............9.xx in the 1/4".

With a 5.3 with much higher compression he might have a problem with the extreme EBP it will see with the T3 housings. I would say to make over 550 WHP it is on the edge of burning exhaust valves and/or melting pistons. Either way, it will be interesting to see the results. I am guessing it should start to spool around 1400 RPMs with the tiny turbos. To me those turbos seem all wrong for what his goal was, but time will tell. I would have went with the S400CW75 to start and upgraded from there. He built just the opposite of what Hotrod did so it will be need to see how much low end torque that thing makes.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It is going to be a heck of a lot of fun with those turbos. Personally, I like the small turbos. it is just that your goal was 800 WHP so it is opposite of that and what Hotrod did.
The BW S400 75mm CW is only $650 shipped and upgradable which is why I figured you would have gone that route. It is cheaper to upgrade. You will only get 50% back if you try to sell those turbos you have now. Good luck and have fun. Turbo projects are a great learning experience and worth every penny.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Putting 800 WHP through the 4L80E over drive unit (4th gear) is asking for a lot. I think when you price out the torque converter ($1,000+) you might change your mind. I am a fan of the 4L80E but they aren't cheap. One of the advantages of a turbo setup is being able to run a 3 spd (TH400) with high gearing. You get quick 1/4 mile times & great MPG during cruise.

The gears will definitely work, but the calculators and real work experience will show you will over rev that engine in the 1/4 mile with that much HP. That is a fact. You will be letting off of the pedal way before the 1320 line to keep that engine alive. Also, why push it when you are building a low RPM turbo setup. You want gears to take advantage of your giant torque curve (and limited HP curve).

89fbrestor

junk you went way over my head on some of the stuff you said lol thanks a ton for the input. i have NO PROBLEM upgrading down the road. this will be a fun project and i'm sure i will learn a lot.

thanks

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran twin 60's with slightly smaller compressor wheels and similar sized turbine wheels on my 401 and made 690 on a mustang dyno with a real rich street tune. Thru 5500 stall TH400 mind you...

IF the T3 flanges become a restriction get some .68 T4 housings. They should bolt on. .84 a/r T3 is only alittle bit behind a .68 T4 and i've seen .68 T4's get up over 800whp. 800whp thru a 80E is a big number and hard to get. Thats well near high 8 second car if properly setup and not too heavy. Atleast low 9's at high 140's

89fbrestor

i guess I'm not following you guys on the trans part of this. the turbos i get and its just a starting point which i can change down the road. but how does a trans have such an affect on all this. i know that's probably a stupid question but ... i work in computers and am not naturally inclined to mechanics lololol

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

What is a street tune?
Who sells the .68 T4 housing for the Ebay/China turbos?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The overdrive part of a 4spd trans is usually the weaker part of the transmission. The 4L80E has more rotating mass than a smaller trans and with that comes a power loss. Depending upon the torque converter you could see up to 20% loss. To get 800 WHP you would need 1.2*800 = 960 BHP at the crank.
With that much HP then you are looking at 140+ MPH in the 1/4 mile which means that with 4.11 gears you need extremely high RPMs at the motor. The stock 5.3 can't handle that.

Since you picked the turbos and engine I would build around them. I would run the 5.3 stock for now and put some money into building a 700R4 or 4L60E. Run that setup with the 4.11s in the rear, but even with this setup you are looking at 500 WHP and will over rev with the 4.11s in the rear unless you shift into 4th which is something I wouldn't do. Some 3.23s would be a nice fit.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

89fbrestor,
Can you cut a piece of paper that will slip into the inlet so that it will touch the compressor wheel. Then remove the paper and measure it so see what the wheel diameter is?

I think you have a 53mm inducer. The are probably good for 400 BHP a piece maxed out at 20 PSI of boost.

# T70 Turbocharger
Turbine Turbocharger
Oil cooled only
6 blade propeler
Compressor Specs :
4" Compressor Inlet
2.077" or 52.77mm Inducer
3.000" or 76.20mm Major
Compressor .70 A.R.
Compressor 75 Trim
M14 Compressor
# Turbine Specs :
Twin Entry Type
11 Blade Type
58.18mm Exducer
Turbine .84 A.R.
Turbine 60 Trim
2.900 " or 73.66mm Major
2.290" or 58.18mm Minor

project89

iTrader: (1)

if they are only 52mm turbos send them back and i can show u were to buy 57mm turbos for 120 bucks each shipped. they would be the same turbos on my iroc

and u can get them with t3 .63 t3 .84 or ptrim with a .8x housing the p trim setup is about 220 bucks each turbo over the t3 .63 or t3.8x though which are about 120 each

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Just a street tune...meaning drove on the street and did pulls, never optimized air fuel or timing for max power, just shot for a air fuel ratio number that I considered safe and gave it timing til it didnt like it and then pulled few degrees more. I ran it at the track and made timing changes to see the effects but motor didnt want much more. Never played with air fuel ratio for mph tho, just shot for 11.5 to 1 with 12-14psi.

When I got on the dyno, the air fuel was .5 richer than what I seen on the street. Just alittle change in air fuel I picked up substantial power. 18 psi but way rich at barely reading 10 to 1 (LC1 only measures to 10 to 1) it made 675whp. Dropped to 17psi but took out a bit of fuel so it read around 10.2-10.4 to 1, it made 690whp. I only got 3 pulls due to local dyno day event, no real tuning was allowed. Never seen a dyno since.

89fbrestor

very good info guys. turbos will get changed eventually I'm sure and like i mentioned the gears will probably be out of there before this thing ever hits the road. i only get to work on this project on Saturdays so its not going to go to fast.

ok about this motor though... isn't this thing going to make about 450hp with out the turbos? I've printed out 3 magazine article and with the motor mods i have planned they basically had the same thing and they all CLAIMED to be about 450... these turbos are only going to add about 100hp? what about opening up the inlet where the air comes in to the turbo from the exhaust? I'm a programmer in a skilled trade shop and I'm pretty good with port matching and hand tool (i just know nothing about motors lol)

thanks guys your awesome

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The clear answer is yes and no. You are confusing WHP and BHP. If you install the FAST intake, proper open up the heads along with valves, throttle body, etc then yes you will have 450 BHP which is 450*.8 = 360 WHP at the rear tires with the 4L80E. To get to 550 WHP you need 550-360 = 190 HP from the turbos.

The thing is that the turbos are on the small side. That means they get out of their efficiency range as HP increases. Once you measure the compressor wheel diameter we can give you a better estimate of how well they will do. If they are 57mm with T3 housings I would say 650 WHP MAX. If they are 52mm I would say 550 WHP MAX. Either way, you are going to operate at the 60% efficiency line on the compressor and have high exhaust back pressure in the turbine. The good part is that this thing should be a stump puller down low.

If you planned on running race gas (115+ octane) and giant intercooler then I would say higher HP, but I am assuming you are going to drive this mostly street and not pay $10/gallon for gas.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I was under the impression these were T4/T3 hybrids...T4 compressor housing with a 61/91 wheel and T3 housing on a Ptrim type turbine wheel 62mm?
Definately measure and find out. And file complaint if they arent as advertised. Get those crap vendors off ebay.

Compressor side if true 61mm will handle 1200hp as a pair. Exhaust side becomes restriction as back pressure can increase at the higher mass flows at the higher hp levels. I'd just try them and see what you can do with them for now.

All motor, 350-360whp with cam'd 5.3 is common. I'd just keep LS6 intake, no need for expensive fast for this project. LS6 intake will make over 700-800hp with boost.

89fbrestor

i'll measure when i get home tonight and post it.

89fbrestor

ok i measured and they appear to be 58.4 mm on the smaller fin part... hope you know what that means lol does that make them better?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

58 is abit smaller than advertised 61's. But they should still flow enough to make some power

89fbrestor

this was the paper measure method that junk suggested i didn't take them apart and it was a loose fit for the paper so they are probably about 60ish. either way I'm in OK shape right ?

about that trans .. guys would i be better off with building the 700r4? i have both transmissions i can do either one.

thanks

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

A big thumbs up on the 58mm inducers. They should be good for about 850 BHP or about 650 WHP maxed out.

I don't think you will really want to upgrade after trying them. I would try them out with the stock intake, valves, and TB first. I think you will be plenty happy with the HP. I would run a beefed up 700R4, TH350, or TH400 with a set of 3.08 to 3.23 gears and call it good. Traction will be your biggest problem. It should spool before 2,000 RPMs.

I like the build and think those turbos are a good fit.

89fbrestor

well i know its not a fix but it should help, i bought the umi lower control brackets and arms along with the pan hard bar. the tires i'm putting on there are 10.5 wide so that should be a +

as far as the turbo go *sigh* good lol and like i said there actually a little bigger then the 58.4 i measured there was still a little room for the paper so another + anyway thanks

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A basic rebuild on a Th400 will hold that no problem. To get a 700r4 to live behind it for any length of time, its gonna cost more. But lockup and overdrive are HUGE pluses

project89

iTrader: (1)

those turbos will do more then 450 bhp each, the 57mm units i got will do almost 1100 bhp as a pair

the reason marty kept burning up thrust bearings was due to undersized turbos he was overspeeding them stock gn turbos are the smallest t3/t4 turbos 46mm compressor wheels iirc.

once he upgraded the gn turbos to larger aftermarket units he stoped burning up thrust bearings

the only thing missing now for a good extimate on ur setup is measurements of the turbine wheels, as long as they are stage 3 wheels or better u should be fine

i would try to run 3 inch downpipes right out from the turbine housings if possible

89fbrestor

i did the same measurement on the backside.. hotside? and it was the same as the front. both sides are a little over 58.4mm or are you talking about the big part of the fins? if so i have'nt pulled them apart yet.

Orr, you have a 400th correct? how is that driving around as far as rpms go. i read you have, i think 2:73 gears. i'm not opposed to a three speed trans i just dont want to be going 60mph and be at 3500 rpms. i drive down state to detroit about once a mounth and i'd love to take this car down there but that would cost a fortune with out over drive. i live in the country so a lot of my driving is *shhh* around 65mph on these long back roads here in northern michigan.

thanks guys if we all lived closer i'd buy ya all lunch lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah I got the th400 and even with 4000 stall its not terrible. The converter does a great job acting tighter than 4000 when off boost. It does slip alot tho. Near 60 mph is like 2500 I believe even with 2.73 gears. Normally with lockup that would be 2100 in my 99 TA that had same gears/4l60e in Drive, but overdrive would drop that alot more. I generally only cruise at 45 on the back-ish roads and smaller highways so 55mph isnt a problem; I try to avoid the 70mph highways.

My new setup with the big heads/cam may not like cruising lower than 2000 rpm anyway so the gears/stall/tranny works.

Thats why i dont think I will get rid of 2.73 gears. Car is PLENTY scary fast with those gears and they drive best on the highway. When I get a 12 bolt or 9" I may step up to 3.00-3.08's since they normally dont come with anything lower.

If I go 4L80E with lockup I'd go 3.23's for my new setup.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Please post both the compressor map and turbine map for the 57mm. They must be the latest design in wheels from Turbonetics. They are slightly out flowing the other manufacturers with some of their wheels. Since the ebay/China units are usually a knock-off design of old Garrett technology I equate them to a T04E 57 trim (58mm inducer) wheel that flows 42 lb/min at a pr of 2.6 (or 24 PSI of boost) and 60% effeciency. Talk about a huge intercooler to remove the 40% of heat for 900HP worth of airflow. Giving the benefit of doubt which most engines never achieve I will use 10.8 hp per lb/min which yields 10.8 * 42 = 450HP per turbo.
So with two turbos in an ideal world they are 2*450 = 900 gross HP capable. Now take away accessory power of 5% and then 4L80E loss of 18%.
900*.95 = 855 NET HP
855*.82 = 700 WHP in an ideal world.

Now take into account there are tiny turbines on these turbos which needs to be taken into account. Flow 42lb/min at the compressor with make that tiny T3 housing have a 3x pressure ratio (24*3) = 72 PSI in the exhaust manifold. With that much pressure and heat there will be valve meltdowns in any normal head. Overall, trying to make over 900HP is only a matter of theory and no applicable to the real world with average every day parts. Start running exotic parts, then yes it is possible. But when run exotic $5000 heads, pistons with $120 ebay turbos?

Now the real world stuff. That 5.3L engine will suck too much air which requires more lb/min than those turbos can provide at a given pressure ratio. At 6500 RPM and 24 PSI at the comp outlet (22 PSI after intercooler) requires 46 lb/min which is less than the 60% efficiency line and starting to over speed the turbos (and eat bearings). The turbine can't flow the exhaust and is going to melt valves and pistons.
It just doesn't make sense to run these small turbos for over 800 BHP unless you want to do like Marty did..........just to say you did it.

I like small turbos in most applications, but you have to realize their limits.

Marty upgraded because of exactly what you said. Trying to get 1200HP out of these turbos would require upgrades also.

I agree on the 3" downpipes & use flowmaster ultraflows or equivalent.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont know what turbos are in APS twin kit for Z06's but I've heard their 58mm compressors made 1000whp on one motor they did. Likely newer tech but they must be pushing that hard. My 60's I felt were approaching limit at almost 700whp so I went to 70's expecting more power from better efficiency but I did not see anything and infact went slower. Maybe too big a jump? I like smaller compressors myself, as it was said here by Street Lethal the GN guys have it all figured out. Use the smallest turbo possible to fit the goals.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The T3 turbines at 900 HP are more concerning than the compressor side. I am guessing they didn't use ebay/china turbos on a Z06 kit, but yes still pushed hard.
The real art of figuring out turbos is in the exhaust side. That is where the magic happens. It is a closed loop system and the turbine is an important control point.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes, turbine side is important but somewhat tricky to figure out. Everyone has maps of their compressors, but little is shown on turbines.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i have a friend with the aps twin setup on his 05 vette. t2 flange turbos if i remember correctly, and he made a little over 900rwhp. there wasnt much done to the engine either, i think maybe a cam or something like that. he was running a mix of pump gas and race fuel and had a meth kit on it. he made a mistake on his tune and hurt the engine later on, and was forced to do a forged rotating assembly.

89fbrestor

i'll just keep reading and speak when spoken to lolol good stuff guys.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I can see a pair of the Garrett GT3582R turbos generating 1200 BHP at the crank and 900+ WHP. With the GT comp wheel at 61.4mm and available turbines this is easily done. That is a very nice kit, BTW.

Comparing the GT 3582 to the ebay/china turbos is apples and oranges. I think the China turbos are great for their intended purpose.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i have the maps ill post them when i get home from work

the turbine is the same turbine they use on the ta-49 gn turbos i know because i have swaped the standard 4 bolt housing for a gn 3 bolt housing before

and also the china gt3582 is the same exact specs as a garret gt 3582 from the wheel design down to the inducer and exducer measurements both compressor and turbine side

martry has a pair of the 57mm ebay units on a big block motor as well so i highly doubt there going to choke the 5.3

i also know how much power i pushed threw a smaller ebay turbo with the same size turbine housing and wheel and put down 350 whp with more then half the displacement of 5.7L and pressure ratio was 1.3-1 ex vs intake

project89

iTrader: (1)

the 57mm units i have on my motor are copys of the garrett gt3076

i can get these for 120 bucks each all day long

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for posting that. I would be interested in picking one up to compare. Where are they available?

project89

iTrader: (1)

ebay , when im done with work ill goto into my purchase history and get u the link to the correct auction.

there are 3 different ones available with the gt3076 compressor

.63 ex housing with the compressor wheel stuffed into a t04E housing
.8x ex housing with the compressor wheel in a 60-1 compressor housing ( 4 inch inlet 2.5 discharge)
and a p trimed hotside with a 1.05 ar with compressor wheel in a T04E housing

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Dave. I am now thinking of maybe replacing my 60 trim T3 .63 A/R with some of the GT35s you are talking about.

project89

iTrader: (1)

these arent gt35's they are gt3076's but u can get a gt35 for around 220

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

How is it possible to make a turbo for under 300 bucks?

project89

iTrader: (1)

they are copys so no r&d cost to make up for .
not to mention they dont jack up the price cause of the name on the unit either
if u order enough of them from one of the suppliers u can get them around 70$ each

89fbrestor

are these turbos better then the ones i have cuz i paid $450 for the both of them

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am interested in the gt3076s for $120 if you have the info.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I say that every time I get a tool from Harbor Freight. I mean really? $10 for an HVLP spray gun. How can they do that?