Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Working on a simple yet cheaper system for big hp guys!

Previous setup was dual walbro 255's using Lonnies Performance pump kit and harnesses in a factory plastic fbody tank from 99-02.

I am keeping the harnesses for the two pumps as is but simply adding a new 3 way connector and 3rd pump on its own relay and switch.

I have made 1009 whp on this 2 pump system which from alot of internet reports is about the limit of the build. I want 1200-1300 soon on good gas lol

So i started with this connector. 3 way Husky air manifold for air power tools. 1:4 npt base fittings and 3/8 npt main single connection. I put 5/16 hose barbs for pumps with Gates 27093 submersible rubber line. Top is 3/8" barb for Gates 27097 submersible line. Must do submersible line!!


Next was a concern about baffleless tank and losing bucket the factory fbodys had. Holds gas in turns and low tank. 3 wont fit without some massaging so i cut out some of the wall and allowed pumps to move outward. No idea if any gas will hold on turns and low tanks with that much cut but its worth a try. Others have used baffled metal tanks and deleted the bucket and hose clamped 3 pumps together.


Will clean up cuts and hose clamp around the assembly to ensure it stays together. Had to bend float level wire to work around third pump body.

Will have more pics tonight as i finish up

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

3 way connector in bucket with lines hooked up. Its tight in there.





I had to remove bottom clamp to allow third pump to shift abit and allow assembly to full seat to tank top.
Also had to cut off a few feet off of the bucket to allow room for snap on filter socks


Thats basically all i needed to do. Drilled hole in top to allow wires to pass thru. Epoxy shut and good to run again! Simple and fairly easy. Not sure if that bucket will help. I'd like to do without it but we shall see

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Shot of bottom. Most of the feet are now gone to allow filters to fit

Drac0nic

That's a whole lotta fuel pump. Can't wait to see you turn this up. 8s here you go!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah it has 8's in it easily with two pumps. I wasnt full power yet and couldnt hook. 3 should be good to 1400-1500 whp but i will never get there. I would be happy with 1200's on race gas. 1300 would freak me out but unless i pick up alot in timing alone on race gas c12-c16, or even q16, i may not get there. I dont wanna turn turbos harder than 30 psi with cast wheels.
Then again...
I was gaining 30-31 whp on average per psi i think on gas. 6 more psi should get me 180 hp. Thats near 1180. Race gas should allow timing for another 50-60 i would hope. Hard to say. Really hoped 70-80 on added timing c16 would allow. Thats definate 1200's with hope of 1300

project89

iTrader: (1)

i think i need to switch to a 4thgen tank , i have 3 pumps in the stock tank and it was a nightmare . u have to install the sender with the 3rd pump loose . and then fish the 3rd pump into place and clamp it with the unit in the tank.

a lot of cursing happens when u have to service the pumps

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Oh yeah this tank has a huge opening. And with rubber fuel filler neck i can drop tank in 10 min or less lol. So easy to get in and out. No unbolting any parts on rear

My buddy got twin 440's on his e85 car in tank. Wasnt easy but worked well

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Is the 4th gen fuel tank a direct swap in to a 3rd gen? Everything hooks up and fits?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yup fits perfect.

abray1

I am no engineer but 3 pumps side by side would put out a little more pressure at a point above them but if you stacked them on top of each other would that yield more pressure also? I guess what I am thinking is with the three pumps doing there thing and your goal is for more pressure then what If you add a pump in the engine bay close to the injectors. Again, I am no engineer like ORR89 but would a pump by the injectors help?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not really going for more pressure. More volume is what i want.
Punps in series like you suggest will provide more pressure and little extra volume. Pumps in parallel like i have done provide much more volume with little more pressure.

These pumps lose alot of volume the higher pressure you run. My base fuel pressure is 40 psi. On 25 psi my pressure rises to 65 psi. Pumps only can support about 500whp thru a automatic each at that pressure. Volume drops off alot after that. So hp drops off
I need more boost for more power which means more pressure. 6 more psi or so. But 6 psi more will require alot more fuel volume so i need the 3rd pump.

abray1

Thats why you are the engineer. My 90 ZR-1 came factory with 2 fuel pumps and I was going to suggest that you find one of those fuel pumps to use but you already have yours done and it looks factory also. You should work for Hendrick Motorsports or something like that. Nascar is EFI now and I noticed that there injectors are mounted almost halfway up the runners in there intakes instead of at the bottom like Edelbrock and all the others do. Those Nascar engineers dont miss a trick either and there is a reason they mount there injectors so high.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I had to make some changes. Couldnt get wiring clip on 3rd pump to fit with sending unit above it so i had to cut the bucket off and shift pumps over. Should have tank in tonight and waiting for hobbs switch to finish it up. Hope to test it soon. I'll probably do it manually to ensure everything works then get to tuning

abray1

Be sure and post more pics of it and what you used. If it works and I am sure it will I might find a 4th gen tank and copy what you did. It looks factory except you used a good clamp at the bottom where GM would have used something cheaper. My 90 ZR-1 has two pumps but it has two injectors per cylinder. There is a key below the radio that when you turn it to "FULL POWER" it turns on the second fuel pump and the second injector. At first when I saw your pictures I thought you had added another row of injectors for some kind of second stage power turbo thing and then I saw the third pump and thought you had done something really crazy like three stages of something. It is fun to watch these kind of projects. What if you did add another set of injectors and went that direction like they did with the LT-5?

abray1

When I first bought the ZR-1 I was going home with it and I thought what would happen if I turned the key on while at full throttle. I did and it was actually smooth like a old carb car easing into passing gear. The thing is it worked very well with no stumbling or acting crazy. It might be a way to control the power a little better. You can tell I sit back and contemplate this stuff intensly but I don't have an engineering degree to properly sort through it. Kenny Burnsteens Mechanic; I think his name was Armstrong; he figured out that the top fuel engines needed more spark and he added more spark plugs and an extra distributor and there power jumped a ton. There engines provide there own oxygen so they can use all the initial fire they can engineer into it. I think they all use 3 spark plugs and magnetos now. Armstrong was a genius and was the reason Burnsteen was kicking Forces rear back then. Fors never won anything untill Burnsteen moved up into top fuel. I love watching the Armstrongs of the world. Dale Earnhardt had Kirk Shelmerdene, Jeff Gordon had Ray Evernham, Schumacker had that Italian guy and the ferrari team. The engineers make the drivers look very good.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That's alotta fuel. Looking good.

What made you decide to use the 99-02 fuel setup instead of the 98 setup with return?
Did you remap the fuel sending unit tables in the PCM or running a 99-02 PCM OS?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I wanted a plastic tank because they were more common and have a larger opening than stock thirdgens. Made the original twin pump system alot easier. Twins fit inside the bucket very well almost factory like.

The top is modded for return line. Or it uses a vent line as the return. Not sure. But it all works.
Sending unit is from a early 90's pontiac grand am i think for stock thirdgen gauges. It fits the 4th gen unit plastic frame but has the correct resistance range for stock gauge.

I am on 4th gen ls1 ecm system but at the time of tank swap i never thought i could do ls1 ecm sbc, else i'd have it run the tank evap stuff lol

I'll get a new pic of the final assembly. Car runs, gonna race tonight to work on 60'. No full passes. Then gonna retune next week on 3 pumps soon as the new boost switch arrives. Hope for 1200+ whp

abray1

Could you get that level of power out of a top mounted blower like a 671?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

With that much pump, at what point does the 3/8s feed line become a restriction?
I'd think you are close to the 1/2 feed and 3/8s return point?
And Y not go with 1 big pump and use speed control like the fuel lab pumps? (Just keeping with the budget theme?)
http://fuelab.com/

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its only 3/8 for 6-8 inches then goes 1/2" to rails

Badass355ciz28

iTrader: (17)

very interesting setup

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Trans may be toast after last night test n tune . Dont seem to have first gear and maybe even second.

Not sure why people have such a rough time with multiple pumps. Nothing wrong with it and can be cheaper. I am not aware of any intank single that can support this power and fit inside the factory opening. Externals require sumps and are very noisey, atleast some are. My friends is about the size i'd need and his screams. Cant even hear car. I'll pass on that

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

How do you have the 3 pumps working together? Is there any type of variable speed or are they just all on, all the time?

I think you would get better performance if you made a rig that allowed the pumps to be distanced farther apart, as it sits I would think they'd be competing with each other for fuel.

Badass355ciz28

iTrader: (17)

i running an A1000 pump at the moment.....though im not pushing 1000 hp either

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

One is on factory relay like normal stock car. One is on a pressure switch 1-2 psi activation. 3rd will be on another pressure switch, 20-22 psi somewhere in there.

As long as there is fuel below the inlets i doubt there will be a competition problem. 3/4 tank of fuel is hard to suck dry

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Nothing wrong w 3 pumps at all, I'd use 1/2 fuel line through the complete system tho.
Here is one in tank I did a few yrs ago. (C5-6 type fuel tank, pump fit right in) Upgraded the wiring b4 we started making pulls.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

When using the bulkhead fitting are you just using the Teflon washers that come with the fitting or are you also using goop or something else to seal the fitting? I want to drill that hole and use the -6 90 degree bulkhead fitting like you have in the pic.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Just used the washers but since it is at the bottom of the tank we ended up tig welding the fitting to it because we really didn't want to burn a carbon fiber car to the ground. If it was on the top of the tank, we wouldn't have messed with it.

abray1

TTOP350 love that picture of that P51D and the cobra in your shop. I have a charvel guitar with a p40 tiger mouth paint scheme but I love the WWII airplanes. Laminar flow gave Guering and the Luftwaffa a bad day in 43-45. Those pilots missed the competition of the dog fighting when the war ended. They turned to cars and then Formula One was founded a little later. You have an interesting garage to say the least. Send me some pictures of the P51 if you don't mind.

Anti-Venom

I was thinking the same thing about the 3/8 line. It seems to me that you would be at the limit of what that line can flow regardless of the third pump. I could be wrong though. It really doesn't matter how short that line is, it's still going to be a restriction, nitrous pills are short too . I would try to modify it for a bigger line. Looks like that brass fitting has plenty of meat on it to drill and tap it for a bigger nipple.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

We shall see. I dont think its gonna hurt anything but i can overcome it with pressure if i have to