It looks like my carburetor is taking a dump, in spite of having it rebuilt less than two years ago. As a temporary fix, I'd much rather see if I can inexpensively upgrade to an aftermarket TBI or TPI until I have enough cash saved up for a 383 with TPI. I currently have the L69 305 in my '84 bird and I haven't yet found any 50-state legal EFI options for it. Can anyone confirm this?

Probably depends on what you mean by "inexpensively". You best bet would most likely be a factory TBI for cheapest. For more bang go for TPI and a factory cam upgrade. I believe Dyno Don has a set or two of each in his shop.

If a carbed motor has the right intake for the factory TBI, I might go that route.

P.m. Don. I don't know when tbi was first offered on the f-body. If it was an option in 1984, you can bolt on and go. You will probably need to change the ecm for it. If it wasn't offered in 1984, you can still install it, but you will have to take it to a referree to get it signed off.

TBI wasnt on a SBC until 1987, which basically means the intake wont just bolt up so you're SOL on both counts.

Edelbrock used to have CARB legal options but I'm not seeing it anymore.

When did the sbc switch over to the 1 piece rear main seal? That was when the bolt pattern for the intake was changed. I think that was 1988, but I may be mistaken. Tpi came out in 1985, so you could do a bolt on of tpi. Whatever you do, you will need to get it signed off by a referee. You just need to make sure that you put everything stock when you change over, so the referee has nothing to shoot you down over.

Honestly, there is no inexpensive way to do it. You have to change everything involved, ie. the pump in the tank, the ECM, the wire harness, the smog stuff, and everything related, as they allow no mixing of the parts.

Sorry for the bad news but this is "California".

The rear main seal changed in 1986, the intake bolt pattern changed in 1987.

Mr84transamer

I can help you on this subject. I did a 1990 complete TBI conversion on my 1982 trans am. Don't sweat the changeover it's not that bad. just hit pick a part and grab TBI stuff from a 87 TBI bird. swap it out and go to a test only smog station my car passed visual and emmision tests with ease.

Since TBI uses your stock air cleaner and they are not allowed to remove anything its a visual pass. If you go TPI it will be a automatic trip to the referee since it will be a visual fail.

If you need help with the changeover let me know. and trust me you'll love the car with TBI verses the quadrabog 4 barrel

88-92 were the only f-bodies with TBI, just so you know. Also, the 89-92 computer is better than the 88, but you'll need a custom chip to remove the VATS anti-theft system.
If you want TPI, why not jump straight to TPI and not spend extra money converting to TBI?

Well that sounds hopeful Jproz, but if you picked up a '90 TBI, then it should work as well as an 87 TBI right?

Yeah Kevin TPI's my ultimate goal, but if I'm swapping out my 305 down the road for a stroked 350, I'd have to change out the injectors which probably ain't cheap. I figure if in the meantime I can lift a good TBI, ecm, harness etc. out of a junked bird it can't be too much damage to my wallet, and would be a more stable solution to my quadrajunk. But if the cost of upgrading the injectors were the same or less as swapping out a TBI for a TPI (including all the labor costs), then you make a good point. Again though, I run into the problem of intake compatibility. Do I need an adapter?

Mr84transamer

Basicallly on my car I pulled a every possible thing off a 1990 firebird at pick a part. and slapped it onto a 1990 L-98 motor I had. My conversion was far more extensive then what you have planned though but still to put fuel injection on the car it costed me a total of approx. 850.00 in parts. but this didn't included the L-98 here is what was bought for 850.00

1990 complete dash harness & tail light harness
1990 engine harness
every possible thing under the hood (such as complete TBI system,coolant lines, distributor,a/c parts,wiper motor,headlight motors,smog lines & Smog equipment,electric fan,serpentine stuff this underhood stuff was the bulk of the conversion cost)
1990 dash cluster
efi fuel lines
efi fuel tank
re-used my column but added vats
1990 tail lights
throttle cables & cruise cables
and a few other miscellaneous parts

Your probably wondering why all this hassle for TBI and not go TPI simple I knew it would fail visually & I wanted to semi retain my original carb look. the whole conversion was well worth the money in every possible aspect such as driveability, reliability, fuel economy and power. granted it's a 350 with 5 speed and 373 gears. However all this and it still gets better mileage then the stock LG-4 did and best of all no need to pump the pedal 15 times till it starts LOL.

everything adapted perfectly to the car except the wiper motor which u won't have that problem.

and as for it's smog test it passed so easily it never came even close to any of it's averages I'm sure you know what I mean by that. If you truly want efi do it right and don't take shortcuts this way nothing looks butchered or out of place. if you ever want to see whats involved you can take a look at the car anytime.

Doing a tbi correctly will cost about as much in labor as a tpi since you will have to change over the ecm, rewire the engine, and r & r the tank to replace the fuel pump. The only difference between doing tbi versus tpi is that you might get away without having to go to a referee if the smog test guy doesn't see the tbi. The downside is that if you later want to put in a 383 with tpi, you have to do all of the work you did for tbi all over again. You can get a tbi for less than a tpi because it isn't a particularly popular fuel system, but then you will have to pop for a complete new fuel system later. I think your best bet is to "bite the bullet" and install a tpi. Drop the tank and replace the fuel pump with one that will be adaquate for the 383 you intend to build at a later date. Put in a 90-92 speed density system for 2 reasons. #1-the ecm is a better faster computer. #2-the maf sensors are one of the most expensive parts on a tpi system while the various sensors used on speed density are all relatively cheap. You are going to have to go to a referee anyway to get the tpi signed off, and this way you can go to him with all stock parts. Stock parts are much easier to get signed off than aftermarket parts even if the aftermarket parts have carb eo #'s. Later, when you want to go to a built 383, or even a built 355, you will need to go with a larger base, large runners, and a ported plenum to get the airflow you will need for the larger engine. You will also need the bigger injectors and a custom chip, but the correct ecm, wiring, and in tank fuel pump will already be handled, as well as having the entire system signed off by the refree. Do tbi, and you will definately have to take it to a referee to have the tpi signed off. If you show up for a referee to sign it off with a 383, a cam, aftermarket runners and base, and bigger injectors, you will get a lesson in what a pain in the a$$ a government employee can be. If you go to the referee with a 383, you will have to start with a 5.7 liter block instead of your 305. The only way that I know of to tell the difference is with a mirror on the back of the block to see if it is stamped 5 liter or 5.7 liter. A test only smog guy will probably not even bother to look if everything looks good and the car passes the sniffer. If you get a test only guy that wants to look at everything like that, leave and find another test only station. When you go to the referee, you are totally at his mercy. He can look at anything he wants to short of tearing you engine down. If he sees what he considers a "red flag," he will probably check the back of the block. If the referee decides to flunk you, you can't take it elsewhere to get signed off. If he wants to a referee can order you to put in a stock 305 before he will sign off on the car. It really doesn't matter what is legal or not, it is what the referee thinks is legal. If the referee says it isn't legal, what are you going to do about it?

even if he did choose TBI at first the TBI harness can be modified to run a speed density TPI system. chances of him finding a cheap speed density TPI harness are pretty slim since it's the choice harness out there and to find one in excellent shape will set you back at least 150 bucks.

I had thought about a painless harness when I did my conversion but I chose the factory harness since it was all plug it together and start it up. Any 85 and later engine is a smog legal changeover smog laws only say the engine must have all it's original smog equipment and be newer then the vehicle it's being installed into. then the ref signs it off. I've done a couple conversions and refs don't care the engine size. I've never had one check to be sure it wasn't a larger motor then what I said, they are more looking for correct emmisions related parts, timing, vacumn lines stuff like that.

I could have probably run TBI off my stock dash harness but it would have been alot more work then just putting the 90 dash harness in. The positive sides of this are my car now has VATS and if I chose to I could even have a air bag in the car. every possible thing works on the car and nothing is hacked up. I still even retained my 1982 dash board though and now it has the nicer orange lights for the radio, a/c controls and cluster, shifter display.

Did all this ruin the cars value ... who knows .... but at least now the car can be driven everyday and isn't a pain, My main reasons for the change was car couldn't pass a emmisions test with the 4 barrel and I wanted more power and cleaner underhood appearance.

That is true, but it is just as easy to get the tbi harness and tpi and convert it all at once. The referee may not check the engine displacement or he may, but if he builds a 383, he is going to want at least a large base and large aftermarket runners. The stock parts won't flow enough air, but the aftermarket parts inspite of carb eo # may not pass with the referee. The last time I was at Don's shop before he moved, one of his friends came by. Don had installed a tpi unit in a 1970's G-body car I think if I remember correctly. The guy had been to the referee repeatedly. The tpi unit was completely stock, but the referee was nit picking it to death. I think one time he had even required the guy to change a hose clamp, not because there was anything wrong with the hose clamp, but because he didn't like that type! If he puts in the tbi and has to go to the referee, and then later installs the tpi and has to go back to the referee, he is redoing some of the work and risking dealing with the ref twice. In my opinion, one time with the referee is enough.

By the way, I don't think you have to worry about value. Even now, most collectors don't think of Third Gens as muscle cars like the Lt1 and Ls1 Fourth Gens. Except for the rare models of Third Gen, I think the collector value of most of our cars for the forseeable will be more as resto-mods than stock restorations simply because the 305 cars are pretty much considered 'Wimpy."

Mr84transamer

I have a few things you might be interested in.

1989 roller cam L-98 shortblock (needs rebuild) positive block is standard bore
edelbrock lower tpi manifold
slp slightly ported runners
ported stock plenum
stock throttle body
serpentine & V-belt hardlines
system need a fuel rail
(my TPI system is speed density stuff)
edelbrock headers and Y-pipe (1 5/8 primary 3 inch Y-pipe) these were ordered for my 84 5.0 h.o trans am, they are full emmisions and air injection pipes are there.
edelbrock 3 point strut tower brace
(think I also have a TBI harness laying around somewhere but not sure as well as a dash harness)

will make you a good package deal on it all if your interested

reason it's for sale well it was going to go on my trans am but I would rather sell the trans am and get my corvette going is all

Hey Jproz do you have any pics of the thirdgen you're selling?

I think I'm leaning towards speed density myself, so I might be interested in your TPI stuff. Maybe if I have time I might come check it all out, but pics would be nice.

Russ, it sounds like you're saying any two refs could give you completely different opinions of your set-up, thus defeating the purpose of the whole referee system. I mean if one goes the legal route and they still get shot down, where's the rhyme or reason a person can follow to stay legit?

mr84transamer

this is my 82

The referee is just that. He interprets the rules and then decides whether your car meets the rules. To my knowledge there is no appeal. Whatever referee you get is the one that signs off on your car, and you have to do whatever he says is needed to get it signed off. The weakness of any beaurocratic system is that it will be administered by beaurocrats. If the referee decides that your car isn't legal, as far as the system is concerned, he has done his job. If the state beaurocracy had their way, there would be no problems because every car in California would go to the crusher on its 5th birthday. You are playing on their field with their ball, and their rules.

Just do everything right and don't give the referee a bad time and you will be alright.
Remember...don't mix parts from different years.
Oh, and remember "yes sir" and "no sir"

One more thing...the ref is an independant agent hired by the state.