Suspension / ChassisQuestions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?
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I was poking around Hawk's and happened to find this.
I'm in the market for a new steering box because mine has over 2" of play in it at the steering wheel. So far I have come across refrences to both Detroit Speed and Flaming River, but I have no idea where I would buy either (summit doesn't carry them). Anyone have any info on Hawk's unit?
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The Detroit Speed and Hawks boxes are both 600 series boxes, which is a newer design. The 600 box is also about 6 lbs lighter than the 800 series found in third gens.
The Flaming River is a 800 series box, but modified with the rack valve, but no weight savings.
One thing to watch is based on the year of car, since these new boxes all have the newer o-ringed lines, older cars may have the older flare style lines. other than that they are all a direct bolt-in.
The 600 boxes usually have a different splined shaft too, which may require a different "rag" joint.
You can go to www.detroitspeed.com to see the Detroit Speed version, Summit carries the Flaming River, and you found Hawks version.
Thanks for the info. The main reason why I'm looking at the higher end units is because I don't want to have to replace the thing in another 8-10 years becase the play is back. I'm assuming that any of these units shouldn't wear as quickly?
wear as quickly? We’re talking about 20-30year old cars with hundreds of thousands of miles. The stock PS setup on these things is about as durable as things get, most of it was designed for the full size trucks or large cars, and is considered overkill by engineering standards for our use. Everything out there besides a stock type setup would pretty much be a downgrade WRT durability.
These 600 series boxes are alot more expensive than the 800 series box. AGR sells a billet aluminum box for almost $100 less than either of the two boxes linked above.
I want to replace mine with a new unit. Are the 600 series much better than the 800 series? I saw the 600 series saves 6 pounds but I would think the billet aluminum box would save even more. Anyway the 600 series boxes are new to me, so can anybody list all the pros and cons to each. I mean if the 600 series is a much better design than its worth the extra $100 to me over the AGR
Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA wear as quickly? We’re talking about 20-30year old cars with hundreds of thousands of miles. The stock PS setup on these things is about as durable as things get, most of it was designed for the full size trucks or large cars, and is considered overkill by engineering standards for our use. Everything out there besides a stock type setup would pretty much be a downgrade WRT durability.
My car is 16 years old and the box isn't original to the car. It was replaced (with documentation) about 8 years ago with a new GM unit. I’m not sure what the mileage was, but I know the car has always been driven and currently has 106k miles on the clock.
I guess I phrased my question wrong. Are better materials used that will be more wear resistant? That’s defiantly the case with TDS’s door pin replacement kit and I wondered if it would also apply here.
Originally posted by david auster I want to replace mine with a new unit. Are the 600 series much better than the 800 series? I saw the 600 series saves 6 pounds but I would think the billet aluminum box would save even more. Anyway the 600 series boxes are new to me, so can anybody list all the pros and cons to each. I mean if the 600 series is a much better design than its worth the extra $100 to me over the AGR
I actually have the money to be in the market now. I'm looking for the best performing/longest lasting box possible. Theoretically those should both point to the same box.
Is that the correct pic of the AGR unit.In the pic only the end caps look like aluminum.The body has that as cast(iron) look to it?If it is aluminum anybody know how much lighter than the cast iron version the aluminum AGR is?
Since this thread got bumped already I guess it's fair for me to put in my two cents again.
From what I understand through an e-mail from Detroit Speed, one of the mounting holes on the 600 box won't be used. The guy wasn't 100% sure because he's never installed one in a thirdgen. Because of this, I'm not sure how directly it will bolt in. I'm going to e-mail hawk to see what he has to say. He should have a better answer.
Does anyone have any info on the AGR box? It's looking pretty appealing as a direct bolt in option with 100% new parts.
from what i understand you can't do any beter than having Lee Manufacturing redo your box. They blueprint them and have a very good rep. They are big in racing circles. They can mod it anyway you like.
from what i understand you can't do any beter than having Lee Manufacturing redo your box. They blueprint them and have a very good rep. They are big in racing circles. They can mod it anyway you like.
I've heard the name about 20 times but have yet to hear what prices they charge. Honestly, I would prefer going with a 600 series over paying $400+ to get my stocker rebuilt.
Does anyone have any info on the AGR box? It's looking pretty appealing as a direct bolt in option with 100% new parts.
I got this info from AGR this week
"James,
Thank you for your inquiry with AGR and interest in our products. We change the torsion bar valve in the 12:1 Billet Box from the stock valve to a performance valve that is quick enough to keep up with the quick ratio of the box and yet firm enough to give decent road feel. The Billet Cruiser has our sport valve that gives great highway firmness. Feel is basically a driver call at the wheel and how much or how little movement the driver wants to put into steering the vehicle. The lighter the valve, the quicker the box responds to driver input. The firmer the valve, more input is necessary from the driver to make the box respond. Unless you are planning on road racing or running on a Super Speedway, the valving that we put in is correct for most drivers and applications.
If you have any other questions or need additional information, please feel free to contact us.
Best regards,
James McElmurry
AGR Performance, Inc"
and
"James,
The case itself is cast steel. The top cap and end cap are 6061 Billet aluminum that is machined by us with our logo for cooling and identification. The box still weighs about 30 pounds as does the factory box.
The case itself is cast steel. The top cap and end cap are 6061 Billet aluminum that is machined by us with our logo for cooling and identification. The box still weighs about 30 pounds as does the factory box.
Yeah I too wanted this as I thought it was fully aluminum. Now I either have to go with the more expensive 600 series box, one of the Flaming billet aluminum ones that I dont like or stay stock..... decisions
Yeah I too wanted this as I thought it was fully aluminum. Now I either have to go with the more expensive 600 series box, one of the Flaming billet aluminum ones that I dont like or stay stock..... decisions
I don't think the 600 series box is any lighter and if it is the difference is going to be pretty slim.
My main concern at this point is lazy on center. I want absolutely no dead spot in the middle. I'm not sure if this is possible with the rebuilt version of the stock box. Then again, I'm not sure if it's possible with the 600 series box. Money isn't much of a hindrance at this point but I am trying to avoid fabbing a rack and pinion setup to work with my car because I don’t have that much free time right now.
A bump + fresh info. No responce from Hawk's yet so I sent another e-mail out to Detroit Speed. I'm also going to be calling AGR at some point to see what they have to say about their boxes.
Hi<
We actually use the AGR box not it is a bolt in and WORKS GREAT that is what you will recieve we just have not changed
the pics yet.
thansk,
Bruce Hawkins
Hawks Third Generation
864-855-2694 www.hawksthirdgenparts.com
I'm completely confused. Does this mean AGR's box is a 600 series or does it mean that Hawk's no longer carries the 600 series box?
after i replaced the tie rods, centerlink, idler, ect... and it didnt go away, i tried the box... i put in another 12:1 aka quick ratio box (i had one stock) and i was better.. but still had a dead area.
then i replaced the entire steering shaft with a good one.... the only thing on there that it could have been was the rag joint.. even though it looked good.. but it totally fixed everything.
my car has no dead area. you flick your wrist, and it turns.. back when i had the autox springs on it, i had the alignment setup to be on the edge of twitchy... matter of fact, it was too twitchy for most people. but the response was instant. if you let that wheel flick a bit, it turned. i loved it.
since i swapped to the drag suspension thats on it, i re-aligned it to "normal".. and its still super responsive.. but its no longer "twitchy"... still, with the quick ratio box and a little throttle input, you can do a sharp turn faster then most people can turn the wheel.. lol.
i guess my point of all this is... dont over-think it.. get the slop out with any quality replacement box... then fix whatever else is bad. dont forget about BEFORE the box like i did... i probably didnt need a new box.. that was money wasted.
once all thats done, so theres no slop, if you still want the car to handle drastically different.. just have the alignment set differently.
i guess my point of all this is... dont over-think it.. get the slop out with any quality replacement box... then fix whatever else is bad. dont forget about BEFORE the box like i did... i probably didnt need a new box.. that was money wasted.
once all thats done, so theres no slop, if you still want the car to handle drastically different.. just have the alignment set differently.
Thanks for the response but I haven't over thought anything. I can pop the hood, grab the steering shaft with my hand, and rotate it side to side and watch everything rock back and fourth right up to the steering box. There might be some play in the column but everything else is so loose that I won’t be able to find out for sure until I start fixing other things. I have a new centerlink and idler arm from early winter because I noticed that the steering would tighten up a little when the car was cold and when it was below freezing out. There was water in basically every joint in the steering system. The centerlink and idler arm helped some but not a lot. I still have a good inch of play in either direction at the steering wheel.
I'm probably going to be buying a front end rebuild kit from Spohn. I don't need the centerlink/idler arm but buying the same components (minus the center link and idler arm) from Summit results in a pretty close price so I figure I might as well spend the extra $100 and have everything 100% new.
I got a response from Adam at Detroit Speed today.
Quote:
Thank you for your interest in our 600 Steering Gear! As for your first question our 600 Steering Gear does [completely] eliminate the “dead spot” that is found in your factory 800 Steering Gear. Our 600 Steering Gear uses rack and pinion style servos, by doing this you get the modern rack and pinion feel but in a steering gear. The 600 Steering Gear will bolt into the factory holes in your subframe, we have seen issues with the bottom lug (which is not used) interfering with the sway bar mount. You can either massage the sway bar mount or the lug. Unfortunately we do not offer a rag joint that will work with your steering column at this time. Last but not least, your stock power steering pump will work, but you will need a new hose kit (part #091202). If your P-style pump has a female fitting in the pressure port you will also need part numbers 090203S and 091901 for convert the pump to the correct fittings. If your pump has the male fitting in the pressure port you will use part number 091902. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I look forward to hearing back from you.
Borgeson can make any rag joint you need so that’s taken care of. I sent Adam a reply asking about output shaft size and spine count.
I really think I’m going to move ahead with the 600 series box conversion at this point. The reply from Hawks really threw me off so they’re out of the picture for now. I didn’t bother replying to it.
Any and all thoughts/comments are welcome as always.
I've had the same problem with the on center slop in my box, and after doing some research and reading a couple threads on here including this one, I sent a spare 12.7:1 box out to Lee Power Steering in Sun Valley, CA. I just put it in last night, and what a difference!! This thing is tight, there is no dead spot in the center, and it works great. The steering effort increased slightly from the stock box, but I only noticed it at slow speeds. There is a section of highway with bad ruts in it from tractor trailers, and my car would go everywhere but straight when driving on it due to the slop in the box. I drove on it today and no problems at all. On top of all that, they are really nice to deal with, and their customer service was top notch! It cost just under $300 to have it done including return shipping, turn around was less than a week, and the box looks like it belongs on a show car. I've attached a couple of pics.
__________________ Four weeks, twenty papers, that's two dollars plus tip.
12.59@113 w/1.82 60' 11/20/05 The tidybowl man says I should flush this turd!!!
