Suspension / ChassisQuestions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?
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I've attached a pdf file that should help people decide where to get their parts.
I did this because I was convinced that there were only a few 'real' brands of parts for our cars. Look at the part numbers and tell me what you think
Save $$ on your next rebuild.
I would add the steering sleeve's but I don't think ANYBODY should be getting the stock rust prone crap when for the same price (maybe a little more with shipping) you can get coleman hex aluminum sleeves with jam-nuts.
I don't expect anybody to have pictures of their parts with a part number reference but if you do, please post it for visual confirmations.
I'm going to visit a couple stores Monday and take pictures of their parts. No purchases until I get enough convincing evidence that one part is better than another.
The prices are all from online directory look-up. It might be cheaper depending on region so don't hold me too it. Again, I'll keep it updated and maybe a good tech article will formulate.
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Last edited by JPrevost; 05-27-2006 at 06:35 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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I'm not sure where you are located but Advance in Florida doesn't carry Moog parts, they carry TRW and Treadsaver (China made TRW parts). I stick with Moog since the "problem-solver" ball-joints use sintered bronze inserts and true ball & cup designs with del-alum inserts. They are far superior to older partial-cup designs.
__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
I'm not sure where you are located but Advance in Florida doesn't carry Moog parts, they carry TRW and Treadsaver (China made TRW parts). I stick with Moog since the "problem-solver" ball-joints use sintered bronze inserts and true ball & cup designs with del-alum inserts. They are far superior to older partial-cup designs.
According to Advance's website they do carry Moog parts for our cars. I got everything off of the websites. I'm going to stick with Moog for most of the parts and the cheapest idler arm that comes with a lifetime warranty.
What is odd is that Napa's lower line is 'mostly' Moog where as Moog is middle to top of the line everywhere else. I say mostly because of things like the idler arm. Most stores say Moog's part number is K6249 but at Napa it's MRC18832. Then if you look at Advance Auto Parts part number for their cheapest "Tread saver" product line it's S18832. Hmm... Advance Auto Parts "TRW" part number is 18832. From other members it's been said that "TRW" is Moog . Is my confusion spreading to others yet? Same strangeness goes for the lower ball joints.
Most stores say Moog's part number is K6249 but at Napa it's MRC18832. Then if you look at Advance Auto Parts part number for their cheapest "Tread saver" product line it's S18832. Hmm... Advance Auto Parts "TRW" part number is 18832. From other members it's been said that "TRW" is Moog . Is my confusion spreading to others yet? Same strangeness goes for the lower ball joints.
The "18832" number is an industry standard identifier, much like "D" numbers for brake pads. Some companies will create their own part number when it helps them maintain their inventory programming. TRW is definitely not MOOG, TRW is owned by Allied Signal and MOOG is owned by Federal Mogul. Who knows, maybe one of those companies owns the other!!!
There's a whole bunch of 'private' lines like Napa, Carquest, Auto Value, etc that sell what they call 'whitebox' parts that are just reboxed items like Moog parts. Not unusual. The price is considerably less, couldnt tell you why as the parts are identical. The only trick is to find out whats actually in that box, it can vary from store to store especially if they just switched over from a brand name like TRW to a whitebox, often those are just reboxed and then the next refill from the supplier comes in a different brand.
Are you sure about that? Neither of the websites show any affiliation, they are traded on the stock market as two seperate companies, and Federal Mogul is a much larger company than TRW. Where did you get this information?
__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
I worked for a company that bought another company that was well known as a manufacturer of engine and chassis parts. As this was some twenty years ago I do not want to use company names as I am sure the situation in the chassis industry has continued to evolve and the sources and brand names may have changed. In the 90's there was a very limited number of chassis parts manufacturing companies in the USA. Most of the "Brand Name" suppliers did not manufacture a full line of products and some made none of the parts they sold. Therefore they purchased the parts that they did not manufacture, either from competitors or third party manufacturers. Most of these parts were identical if purchased from competitors, although some items with large production runs were made to customer specs. Third party purchases could be manufactured either to manufacturers specs (usual if the manufacturer sold to the OEM) or to customer specs. The industry became even more complicated as imported parts became available and off brands developed. Quality could change greatly from source to source. "Brand Name" companies followed one of two sourcing routes, purchase from the cheapest supplier (which at times resulted in quality problems) and put it in the "Brand Box", or they developed a quality (Brand Name) and an economy line (new name). Add to this the need to always have a supply of product and situation becomes very muddy. Terms like "Replacement part" and "Meets or exceeds OEM specs" do not always mean the same thing. Brands that offer a real special feature(s) over the competition usually control the manufacturing process either by making the product in house or through specifications given to the factory manufacturing the product and you get what you bought. But, as a customer, in many cases "what's in the box is what you get" and the seller's warrenty is more important than the actual product.
Oh, so true!! I've pulled-out tie-rod ends out of TRW boxes and found different quality parts (thicker forgings, larger hardware, better fit & finish) from the same batch at a store. The reps I've spoken with told me that sometimes they will substitute when they run low from their supplier. That means that you can purchase a "premium" product with "standard" parts in the box and sometimes get the better stuff in the standard box! Be a smart buyer, ask to see all that they have of a part (3rd gen stuff is readily available, very GM generic, and usually well stocked in multiple quantities) and make sure of what you are getting. Although as Al said, the warranty is your primary concern and performance is a close second!
I spent 12 years managing a retail auto parts store. That said, on the average, if it has a private lable on it, it is probably (now) made overseas. Case in point is most of Autozones private label stuff. Some people will even tell you that some stuff is reboxed premium brands, but that is rarely the case unless as stated the private supplier ran out. The Auto parts industry unfortunately is not regulated to the point that quality at a certain level is required. All you have to do is make a part that fits and meets minimum standards and they will buy.
At the other end of the spectrum is the business I'm now in, Pharmaceuticals. This is the second most regulated industry in the world after nuclear energy. When we bottle a multisource(generic) it is the same product from the same tank or bin as the 'brand' with the only difference being the label graphics. We even have to use the same shape bottle as the one the brand drug comes in.Too bad car parts aren't like that.
I havent checked much lately since its been over 10 years since I worked behind the counter but the last parts I got a year ago for my pickup at my local mom+pop were whitebox parts from a local warehouse and without any doubt you could buy the same parts and pay more for them in a Moog box... as in they matched the Moog parts on the shelf at the mom+pop.
My past experience with TRW fits with a post above. It really was hit+miss as to what you would get in the box. I spent a few months ordering from different warehouses before I got a matching set of the 'better' parts for my car. I'd have to say that what I finally sold myself was made somewhere on this continent, and it was obvious to me some of what I did not take was from Asia. We carried over the years I worked there so many brands I cant even keep track. I know we sold Moog, TRW, McQuay, Sealed Power (Mostly Moog at first and later solely TRW origin in the box) and then a whole group of whiteboxed parts. Sometimes we carried more than one line of parts.
Just FYI for those that dont know:
When we switched lines, especially to whitebox or a 'chain' brand like Auto Value, the parts on the shelf were reboxed in the store to the new box so we had a whole line of Moog parts thrown into Auto Value boxes. Same goes for Sealed Power, did the same thing there although the later parts were mix+match. Quite likely the warehouse had reboxed as well, who knows what exactly we were getting. Only sure way to know whats in there, check.
Lets say a repair shop or gas station orders up some parts from you and waits. What they dont tell you is they have a 'rush' job (arent they all?) and they ordered parts from like 4 different places. The ones I know who did this a lot did it to get parts faster and also in case the parts sent were defective or what was in the box wasnt right. That happens more than you want to know. Then with all the parts at the shop, they always end up opening more than one box and next thing you know the TRW parts ordered from store X end up in the MOOG box from store Y, and the parts are sent back to store Y. I checked for this, but other people at the store did not and so... only way to know whats in the box? Yea, check the box.
Center Link: Napa O'Reilly
(Joints look different)
I dont think those are Moog, I did not see any reference on the Napa web page stating that said part was Moog. Unless, as what what stated in the threads above, the Moog parts got shoved into "white boxes". I hope to have time tommorow to run over to Napa and take a gander at a few of these parts just to be sure.
Edit: Went to Napa, took a look at the ball joint, the "Moog" part looks like a PoS. The Napa agent said that these were Moog's cheep line of parts, but they had no marking to say who made them. The Napa Agent also said these parts wernt worth puting on your car and they hardly ever sell this line. This is a Napa store located in a light industry part of town with a decent amount of car shops around. When basic car repair shops dont even use that Chassis line, you know its ****.
Hey guys I work at Napa and we don't offer Moog. The MRC is our Master Ride junk. I just wanted to chime in so there was no misinformation. The top of the line is our precision made by Dana and that has a lifetime warrenty.
I'd really like to know the best source/brand to go with here. I'm going to do a complete front end rebuild, every bushing, tie rods, and everything else that goes bad down there after 20 years. I'd like to get a good price on everything, but I don't want to be installing junk. Last time I had my car up to 120+ it scared the living hell out of me, i thought my wheels were about to fly off.
Can someone tell me where I can get a good price on the best parts? That P-S-T.com seems to have good prices, but who knows about the quality. Energy Suspension sells a kit and it says it includes all front AND rear bushings and tie rod ends for 140$. Energy Suspension is the only tranny mount I've found that my motor won't rip apart in a day.
Thanks
Justin
edit: I'll also be putting in new shocks and struts, any recommendations there?
That poly graphite is some of the strongest material around.. The product is endorsed by both hot rod and chevy magazine and both have done many articles on their products..
so what is the conclusion here... decent info but no real point yet. did we ever come to a conclusion on what is the right one. sometimes saving money isn't the best thing when it comes to something as important as these pieces are it's good to know what's right and then find the best price on it right?
p-s-t has been around for sometime, i put a kit on one of my cars back in 02 but soon sold the car so i never had any real time with it. i'd like to know more about those kits as well as the price isn't bad.
as for the poly graphite then i also hear moog was bought out, are they still making good parts or no and if so what are the part numbers we should be looking for... is it still what's posted above?
__________________ 2009 Detroit dub magazine show May 30th at cobo hall.
That poly graphite is some of the strongest material around.. The product is endorsed by both hot rod and chevy magazine and both have done many articles on their products..
Not to sound cynical but I listen more to people who use the products instead of the magazines that are supported by the advertising dollars from these companies. I had PST poly graphite pieces on my car for about 2 years and was not happy. I had suspension binding, noise, and no noticable difference in steering response or stability in turns. I've had Del-Alum bushings in my front end for 5 years now and am very pleased. They sharpened the steering response, do not bind, and only transmit the slightest bit more impacts from the road than the factory rubber parts.
Have we verified anything about MOOG yet??
So what's the conclusion on PST? I'm ready to order my front end parts but I'd hate to spend my money on something not worth it. I think I'll get with the sway bars and some bushings from TGO's sponsor Spohn but I'll need shocks and ball joints and PST has some good prices.
What do you recommend? Any suggestions where I should buy from (and what)?
Thanks.
just to add my $.02, i have been using te p-s-t poly bushings i everything except motor and tranny mounts for about 10 years now. inner and outer tie rod ends/ sleeves and haven't had any problems with them. my rear bushings are the ones that came in the hotchkis parts.
I put the camaro steering parts on a excel sheet with a filter so it's easier to sort. If anybody wants it they can e-mail me at Mgalvan@shultzsteel.com. there is a spam-filter so you will need to reply to it.
Just to add my two pennies also, you have to watch TRW parts. I bought all the front end stuff for my S-10 through Advance Auto Parts, and they stock TRW stuff. It's their "Lifetime Warranty" stuff. Anyways, to make a long story short, when installing bushings in the control arms I noticed that I had 8 individual boxes. 4 with the same part number (uppers) and four with two different part numbers (bottoms). So far, so good. Well when I started unpacking the bushings I had four of the same bushings for the tops that matched the boxes, but I had THREE of the same bushings for the bottoms and one odd ball! That's not the end! The rear leaf spring eye bushings weren't even the same as what came out. The rear eye bushings were WAY too small. Now we move on to the lower ball joints. Same TRW part number for both lowers, but what was inside was indeed very different. One ball joint was bigger than the other. Someone mentioned about different castings for the parts too???? You better believe it! The inner tie rods were definately different even though the part numbers on the boxes were the same. One had more "beef" to it than the other. These were all UNOPENED boxes!
I guess my point is you have to watch when you buy aftermarket stuff, cuz it seems that nobody makes their own stuff anymore. Someone mentioned about the "Meets or exceeds factory specs" tagline? Oh boy, you better believe that too! Sometimes you get lucky and wind up with stuff that lasts, but 9 times out of ten it won't last as long as the original stuff. Take brake pads for instance. How many of you run GM brake pads on your cars? Be it daily drivers or your 3rd gens? How many of you don't? I'd be willing to bet that the ones that don't will attest that they've went through a greater quantity of brake pads than when their vehicles had the original brake pads installed from the factory. I know just on my S-10 alone, I've went through 2 sets of rotors and four sets of brake pads in 6 years. Considering that the first brake job I did on that truck was removing the factory pads at 56,000 miles, and the truck now has 132,000, I'd say that's pretty s#*!!y quality! Even if they ARE warranted for as long as I own the vehicle! I'd rather spend the extra, get the good stuff, do it once and have it last rather than having to do brake jobs every 19,000 miles. Hell, that's a little over a year for a set of aftermarket pads! That sucks!
I know for a fact that GM has quality standards that have to be met to have the GM, or Delco name emblazoned on the box because of the QS-9000 standards. So even if the General get their parts from three different suppliers, those three suppliers have to meet strict standards for GM to buy from them. Whereas when you buy from discount houses like Auto Zone, or Advance, or even NAPA, it's kind of a crap shoot. See above about the fiasco I went through with a common truck and it's suspension rebuild and brake jobs. NAPA, I've found, is a lot of times more expensive (sometimes moreso than even factory stuff) but their quality seems tighter than say, Auto Zone.
I haven't gotten as far as buying balljoints, tie rods, and brake stuff yet for my T/A, but I just might end up going through my local GM parts guy to get the stuff to ensure I get the same stuff in the boxes when I open them, and that the stuff I install will last.
. Is my confusion spreading to others yet? Same strangeness goes for the lower ball joints. 
