Suspension / ChassisQuestions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?
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I'm looking for info on how the pre-bent roll cage kits fit. Anyone have pics? Competition Engineering, A.R.T., and S&W all make one. I want to see the differences and how tight they fit.
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Mine started out as a Jegs kit. They're all about the same. I don't like my a-pillar bars but I like the fact that I can still open and remove my t-tops because of how they bent the halo bar.
Personally I see them as 2 types of cage kits. One has a halo bar that welds to the main hoop then the a-pillar bars weld to the halo bar. The other type has the a-pillar bars running all the way to the main hoop then a cross bar is added across the top of the windshield to complete the halo. I'd like this style better. Both are an acceptable design.
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87 IROC-Z
All engine, no power adders! Bests: 9.348@144.71
Sorry, should have specified. Not a cage but a bar kit. We normally bend up our own kits but I'm just looking for some kits as an alternative for the guys that aren't trying to spend a lot of money. I want a kit that will fit OK so I don't end up having to tweak this and that which would drive the price higher than a custom bent setup.
S&W's 8 point fit good. I've never done any fabrication before, but was able to install it with a a mig welder and grinder with a second pair of hands to help.
The weight saving isn't huge compared to the increased cost. CM also needs to be TIG welded. Not a lot of people have TIG welder in their home garage. Mild Steel can be MIG welded. MIG welders are common and don't use flux core wire. Stick or gas welded won't pass a tech inspection.
Unless you're building a stock car where the roof is cut off then reinstalled to install a cage, it's always welded inside the car. Remove all the interior. Small sparks can travel long distances to burn interior and melt plastic.
The price of a roll bar/cage kit is cheap. It's the cost of installation that gets expensive. A typical installation will cost about $100-$150 per point depending on how much interior needs to be removed.
Even roll bar/cage kits are not a 100%, simple weld in job. Plates need to be welded to the floor for the tubes to be welded to (remove seats and carpet). Many of the tubes will be notched on one end but the lengths need to be cut since positions of the tubes and plates will not be the same in each car. Some tubes won't have any notches because the final angle of the tube depends on the exact location it's put in. You'll need to notch them to fit.
If you want it don't right the first time, have a roll bar/cage custom built and installed by a local chassis shop. If you're willing to spend a lot of time putting in a kit yourself, expect to buy a few more tools that you may need to put it in.
hey I've just bought a S&W 8point roll bar kit for my 83 where did you fit the rear supports to ? they seem too long to hit the "bump" above the fuel tankl and too short to hit the floor Thanks
just cut them to the length you need, they are longer so you can position them where you need them. I ran mine all the way to the end of the fuel tank "bump"...I tried to stay on the same angle as the rear window.
just cut them to the length you need, they are longer so you can position them where you need them. I ran mine all the way to the end of the fuel tank "bump"...I tried to stay on the same angle as the rear window.
I'm no expert first of all, but in my research of cages i've found on repeating theory. The rear supports for the cage should be mounted directly above the shock mounts in the rear. Where this transfers to on the "bump" you'll have to measure out. The reasoning for this is to have the maximum of the energy transfered to the ground and not the body. If you weld it to some random place in the body there will still be some almost im-measurable amount of flex. hence in theory slowing down launch/ET. ... all i'm saying is spend an hour researching before welding. I wouldn't want to weld it in and then find out i did it wrong. i'm anal about that kinda stuff. good luck, let me know the improvements and the ease of installation.
Look over the crappy welding on alot of the pics in 1st album.. My plan didnt go as I thought..
My idea was to use the cheap flux core 85 amp welder I had just to fit and tack everything together, then call out a pro welder to mig weld all the stuff for me.. The pro welders wanted like $400-550 just to do the welding..
I said the heck with that and bought a horbart 140 amp mig welder, rented a argon/C02 tank and done the welding myself..
The flux core welds looks like crap, but I ground them down and mig'ed it all
I used Night rider's pics as a good reference for the floor plates when i installed mine a few months ago. Thank you sir!
Everything was notched except the bars that they sell extra to clear the stock door handles. I had to notch them myself just using a grinder. But taking your time and test fit after test fit you'll be fine.
Probably the most difficult thing was installing the swing out kits. I took my time to get them as close to perfect as possible.
I'm no expert first of all, but in my research of cages i've found on repeating theory. The rear supports for the cage should be mounted directly above the shock mounts in the rear. Where this transfers to on the "bump" you'll have to measure out. The reasoning for this is to have the maximum of the energy transfered to the ground and not the body. If you weld it to some random place in the body there will still be some almost im-measurable amount of flex. hence in theory slowing down launch/ET...
Very cool, thanks - I hadn't run across that particular tidbit before...
Another thing that I've noticed is that most of the pics I've seen show the main hoop farther back, almost even with the b-pillar. I mocked mine up according to NHRA rules and it's about 4-6" farther forward than those photos. When placed farther back like in the pics, how far is the hoop from the back of your helmet?
- A moly 8-point is less than 20lbs lighter than a mild steel. If you use DOM steel tubing .120 wall is legal and it gets the weight diffenence down within 10lbs. - Basically, emptying your glove box would be alot easier, a LOT cheaper and be just as effective in weight savings. Suncoast chassis lists their double frame-rail full tube chassis kits and they say a moly kit is 100lbs lighter(and remember, wer're talking a full tube chassis, double frame-rail) Yes, moly also requires being TIG welded and it has a considerably high fatigue rate, which is why pro-stockers cahnge cars as often as they do. They're basically wore-out when they sell them.
- djwimbo is correct on his theory/research about the rear strut pipes. The key being that most race cars run the strut pipe all the way to the back, then run their x-brace pipes down to where the shocks/springs mount. This allows you more support/strength and maintains a lower flex at the criticl points
- IIRC; if the main hoop is placed further back you have to run full "x" door bars and a rocker pipe, but it has more to do with driver seating position. I know the rocker pipe is required for cars with modified floors or rockers as well. - I'd have to look at a spec sheet again, it's been a while. I know the seat position plays a big roll in this as you are only legal to be sitting "x" amount forward of the main hoop.
Dialed_In - If the main hoop is too wide, they shipped you the wrong kit.
I spent a good bit of time on Monday on the phone with they guys at S&W with a blueprint and a tape measure. I have the right kit. They claim that the main hoop has sprung out of shape during shipping. I'm not so happy with the redesign of the door bars but oh well.
There is NO way that the main hoop"sprung"out of shape during shipping.Not by 8"!I personally have shipped over 50 chassis kits and roll bar kits and never has one "sprung"out of shape during shipping.The tubing bender uses an awful lot of force to bend a piece of tubing that thick just a couple of inches.You have a wrong main hoop.
They faxed me over a blueprint of the 82-92 f-body roll bar. Dimensionally, the hoop that I have matches up perfectly with the drawings. I can get it in place but it takes drawing it in with a ratched strap to do so. It's not my first time doing this but I'm going to have a peek at it tomorrow and see if it's something I'm doing wrong. Only difference is that I've never had an S&W kit. This'll be the last one though.
He sells prebent kits, you'll have to email him for quotes. His stiff fits tight, which is esp improtant for the road race guys. If you're serious about it, his email address is ablaine at cruzio dot com
He quoted me under $600 for main hoop, A-pillars, and windshield bar. Thats probably quite a bit more than some of the other kits but the other kits look like crap and fit loose. This is something that you only do once, so it makes sense to me to do it right. Otherwise you'll regret not spending a little more to have it right.
Since he quoted the kit to me I've gone throught the process of buying the steel myself and bending it. I must say that that price is a bargan.
