Which handles better stock? Lets say a 88 v6 and an 88 iroc Which has the better handling potential? This is one of the main reasons I want to stick with the V6 Lighter / better weight distribution, I have iroc sways, new springs, and some other stuff (see sig) So, im assuming I could stomp a similarly set up iroc / z28 thru the corners / skid pad The car seems to have no end to how hard I can push it thru a corner, I always liked cars that handle, My winter car is an 89 accord LXI, Best handling accord gen ever, My pre-camaro car was an 87 celica GT, i put gr -2's in that and nice tires, but not much else as it was in good shape, I also had an 85 cutlass salon that I threw GNX suspension in, These cars all handled really well, But i know the camaro would stomp them all. So yeah, This is one of the main reasons holding me back from a v8 swap, what do yall think?

Stock- the Iroc

Built? Hands down the V6 will win. Much better weight distribution.

I have proven this theory. A V6 is untouchable if built right.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/518752

I was way more impressed with the handling of my V6. I'd had it for 3 years when I bought my V8 car, so I'd had plenty of time to work over the suspension on it.

I think bottom line it's just the better weight distribution. Less weight up front, and what weight their is has a further setback.

well a ls1 would be alot lighter them a iron small block maybe not as light as there 6 but i wander wich would win lol.. u could always make custom engine mounts too set the engine as far back as possible literally bumping the firewall lol. I would love too see someone make a 50/50 third gen.
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wow i murdered that post in spelling errors lmao.

its easy to make a 50/50 thirdgen, just drop a load of sandbags in the trunk .

We cant be talking more then 200lbs between a V6 and a V8 camaro. Stock vs Stock an iroc hands down would win a race anytime. The iroc had a good handling suspension the v6 did not, it was made for more "comfort" if there is such a thing in a camaro.

I've got similar setup to yours and love the way it handles. Just have a few more things to do and will be done with it.

Well, I'd think stock would go to the V8's unless you could get the 36/24 with V6's, which I don't think ever happened.

If the sky's the limit, I don't see there being any difference between the two handling wise. Figure you could get an LSX series engine that would have an aluminum block, heads, and accessories which would probably weigh less than the factory V6. Then it just depends on how far you want to take it. I'd think you could drop enough weight in either of the cars that the engine choice wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, one more thing to consider is that you would need some sort of forced induction just to keep up with the power level the V8's can put out, which would add a decent amount of weight to the setup.

To the OP, look into swapping an LS1 from a 98-02 f-body if you want to keep the lightweight. Even if it is slightly heavier, I think you'll still be happy with the 200 or so horsepower and torque you'll be gaining over your V6.

Does anyone know what V6's weight? I don't know what kind of block/heads they came with from the factory, but how about the weight of an all aluminum V6 engine?

the 2.8 v6 and the 3.1 where all iron including the heads. The 3.4 and 3.8 have alluminum heads i belive not positive not a big v6 guy i dumped mine fast lol. but the ls1 is very near if not lighter then the v6 as long as u dont get the iron block. a alluminum v6 would be very light thats for sure lol. but i wouldnt do it just imagine running 15psi threw a alluminum v6 lol. I would say go with a ls1 u cant beat the lightwieght plus the 300plus hp. If any actually has a 50/50 camaro i would love too see how they did it and not by adding sandbags lol more wieght isnt the goal :P

I'd bet a LS1 would be lighter than a factory engine in that case too.

As far as a 50/50 f-body, look at this one http://www.pollymotorsport.no/index.php?mapping=2. Too bad it weighs over 2 tons.

I can't pick up an LS1 by myself, I have however picked up my 3.4L iron head and iron block complete motor with intake and exhaust manifolds and set it on my tailgate of my truck. It must weigh aporx 300 lbs. A smallblock V8 is in the neighborhood of 550-600 in the same form. And LS1 can not be more than 100 lbs less than the iron V8 counterpart.

Also, your last two banks of cylinders reach further forward in the engine bay so even if it is the same in weight it stil has greater polar weight than the V6.

ya 87 ive seen that fbody before in my opinion its a pretty showcar as far as peformance ive seen better.

as far as polar wieght u can always modify ur firewall and sit the engine way back ive seen many golden boy gen 1 camarors achieve 50/50 by doing that might not be as effective in are cars but it would help plus i dont see are cars bieng able too go a full cylinder back into the firewall lol... ill have too find the specs on engine wieght and post them im curious just how much the diffrence is now.

IMHO, the lack of power from the V6 is just a contributing factor, that make the V6 feel like it handles just as well, if not better. Yes, the weight bistribution is a bit better, but not enough to matter. IIRC, with a V8, your looking at 56%F/46%R anyways. That's pretty close.

But, the lack or the rear end coming loose, is not an indication of better handling.

An IROC would still beat your modded V6 suspension.

The GR2 struts/shocks are not for performance--more for comfort.

lol now the senior club steps in ;p I thought loosing the rearend was indication of good handling lol. I agree the lack of acceleration when i had the 3.1 in my first car made it feel alot better in the twistys in the 350 i always felt i was going to kick it out and spin. now saying that ive also been in some pretty beefy v6's forced induction the works and they do seem too handle a tad better but it would never convince me to get another v6 car the v8 with konis and a whole list of suspension upgrades takes the corners like a dream i cant wait too see how much better a lsx motor is going too feel in there.

I agree with Vetruck on the weight positioning issue, but I'd still rather a LS1 in my car. Although, if you could get ~325 to the tires from a GM V6 without having a ton of cash in it, you have me sold.

agreed

This ignorant statement does not even deserve and answer.

and answer? C'mon you already answered it!

Don't be shy and explain--rather then bash Thats so easy to do.......

I was just pointing out he is missing a key component. KYB GR2s are no where near a high performance piece like the factory Bilstiens.

Ok now your turn...

LSX wegihing less than a stock V6?
you guys are crazy, it only weights 10% less than an LT1 fully dressed.
GRr's are pretty stiff with a V6 over them,
I never bottom the car out, given its not rock hard,
but I bought the gr2's b/c I like tha balance.

When they blow out however Konis are on my list.

The LS1 is around the 450 mark so... its a lot lighter than, say, a TPI of either displacement.

I think post #2 pretty much handled the question, then there's a bunch of

He doesn't have to explain, he already posted his cardomain. Take a look. His car doesn't have KYB's on it; it has Koni's, a much better shock/strut than factory.

Now, getting back to our original V6 vs. V8 debate.

I see that the V6's are lighter than the LSX based engines, I forgot GM could actually make a light V6, unlike those heavy Japanese DOHC engines. Clearly the V6 has the advantage with engine and transmission. The T56 transmission is pretty heavy and most people wouldn't back a LS1 with a T5.

Here's my problem though. If someone were so inclined, they could drop a lot of weight off of the front of the car. You could cut everything off and go with a tubular subframe, get a fiberglass front end, throw the battery in the back, get lightweight glass, and I have actually seen a Firebird that had its engine moved 6 (or 8 ) inches back. Then don't forget about all of the bolt-ons: tubular K-member, a-arms, coil overs, rack and pinion, we can even drop a few pounds by switching to Racecraft's spindles. That would be a lot of weight saved right there.

Don't you think that at some point, what engine you have in the car isn't going to make a difference on the car's handling?

i see what you mean,
That sounds pretty expensive tho

Looking at my suspension set up (see sig)
what should I do next?

TTA 3.8 V6., bone stock, from the factory......301hp

Throw a few mods at it, and the 325hp mark is EASILY attained.

I'd ditch my L98 for a 3.8 turbo V6 in a heartbeat!

Solid strut mounts!

Trust me.

ps- Also, Avro206 was not talking so much about my car, he was refering to Kukerans car and so was I. Those so called miraculous factory Bilstein dampers are not peerformance valved units like the Bilstein HD's, and even the HD's are the greatest piston valving for performance. With newer technology, even the Koni Yellows are getting outdated. Its best to go to Digressive valving now so the high piston speeds do not increase to harshness.

To just add to this post about handling, If you want truely good handling you have to drop unsprung weight and keep the ratio of unsprung to sprung weight high. For every 4-5 lbs of sprung weight you take off, you need to drop 1 lb off the unsprung weight. This is what gets COSTLY. THis is what my car had. This is where my car is untouchable being a light weight V6 BUT ALSO having very exotic lightweight suspension componants.

Low unsprung weight wilth low sprung weight keeps an agile car with great mechanical grip and great ride quality.

You can keep you big HP and try to burn up tires overdriving the car while I never have to slow down nor speed back up.

Now you guys can see my Vette. You can also see my truck. They both have very good HP and very good handling (Vette 540 rwhp, the truck at about 300) but both are heavy. Niether can hold a candle to my Camaro in corners. And TRUST ME when I say my Truck alone can out handle most cars on this board. my little V6 Camaro is "my favorite" car to drive with only a messily 135 rwhp. It handles ltransistions like a damn jetfighter. I had to put Momo bolstered seats in it just to keep my *** centered in the seat (ON STREET TIRES EVEN). My Vette on race tires pulls less g's than my Camaro. I have never tested my truck. The Camaro I have stated in the past has recorded 1.07g's to the left on a skidpad. I will dare to say most of you will never touch the .095 mark neverless the 1.0 mark.

I PUT MY MONEY WHERE MY MOUTH IS ARVO206, whatchu got?
And Arvo206, before you go spouting off again about shocks, know who you are talking to and calling to the table. I happen to be a crewchief on a NASCAR truck team and do IN FACT valve my own shocks. I know shocks. I know the GR2's, I know the factory Bilstein units- they are pretty much a wash when both are new HOWEVER any idiot out there running around on 20 yr old factory bilsteins thinking he still has something over a GR2 shock is well... just that.
We will all now graciously wait for your rebutle.

hell I even revalve my own shocks on my truck. Those were series 82 4/4-10. They are now 6/ 4-12 . The mounting position is not only set for suspension travel angle, but also calculated and positioned height wise around the rear roll center to control motion transfer in bodyroll.

Another example of what I always preach, "Its not just what you have, but also how you set it"

stock? iroc
modded? who's got the bigger wallet?

the end.

For the record. All RWD 6/60's are cast iron block, with cast iron head... this includes the 2.8/3.1/3.4.

FWD 6/60's depends on the year, but most are iron block with alumn heads.


Something else, I noticed the distance between the firewall and block is just slightly larger on the v6 then the v8. So IMO, you could move the v6 motor back futher then the v8.

As for weight transfer. I think a 50/50 could be done fairly easy for a race only setup. But for a daily driver, I think it would be a bit more difficult.

I don't know whose car your talking about. The thread starter--kukerdan--has KYBs in his sig. Thats who I am talking about.

225 tires? What profile? 60's?

ya dale a 50/50 would be easy for race only lol just start stripping everthing but not so much a option with a dd unless ur crazy.

vetruck u ever think of turboing ur setup ive seen the specs on ur car nice setup deff stiff a lil too much for me since i drive mine around lol. but one of the v6 guys is making 300plus hp too the wheels with a singel turbo six ive read the write up it looks pretty straight forward too.

GM's aluminum 60* racing block weighs all of 67 lbs. You could literally pick it up and carry it to your car. Name a v8 you could do that with.

The discussion has come up many times. I live in California with all the smog nazi's so that is not an option here. With everything I have done to that car, believe me I would have a turbo V6 is allowed. this car was my "Ex" wifes grocery getter so the V6 it had in it suited just fine. I hope the car goes to my daughter like I had always planned it to. At this point, thats not my call anymore. I just gave away a few exotic goodies I had lying around that were future plans for that car.

people have asked me time and time again "Why a V6?" You have to realize most people go out and buy a minivan, or some other form of average jane car for their wife- and then they have generally a hot rod and an average car for themself. This V6 Camaro of mine was in essence my soccermon grocery getter and was not my main hotrod by any means. It was purpose built to be just that, a grocery getter for the wife. I have my other cars/ hotrods.

now in doing so, it turned out surprisingly to be just insane in the handling deparment and it became my favorite car to drive... albeit my slowest car, but favorite. THis thing is setup for hi speed cruising on freeways. You litterally do not have to slow down much on freeway changeovers (I actually speed up for them) because it handles and carries it speed so well. I easily double posted mph signs and literally walk outside and around even Vettes and such on two lane transitions (I have driving skils as wel, most people in upper scales Vettes and such can not press them so its candy from a baby in this little V6 Camaro) then when I straaighten out and come back off it, they then race up and a 1/2 mile up blow past me as I have already settled back down and cruising- I have never had anything hang through a corner with me
I even have pictures posted of that Vintage racecar GT40 where I hung with on Calif Speedway (I was on street tires, he was on race rubber) going throught he infeild corners and then once he hit the straights he was gone- yes he was trying and I actually ran him down through an 85mph 180* sweeper.

A very fun car.

My dream for this car was that very ALuminum V6 race block turbo'ed and mated to a 6L80e 6 speed auto with sequential paddle shifters. This car would be deadly untouchable.

Here a little video clip of it witht he current pathertic motor. It still ran surprisingly fast for a pathetic 2.8. that is a downhill braking from about 80mph. this car stops FAST. Listen to the whirldown noise of the binders when I apply them.( Keep in mind I am holding the camera myself in my right hand filming this as I drive.
http://www.zippyvideos.com/681124941...ilwaffarn_010/
Also a little autox fun with the normal street alignment and Goodyear GS-D3 245-50-16's worn with 25K on them already (I replaced the tires the day after this) http://www.zippyvideos.com/8464669705208156/d3/

You have to consider when you add a turbo, the turbo and all the piping adds weight in the very front of the engine bay. Not sure as to what that'll actually weigh, but it may negate the advantages of the lighter V6.
I'll like to have Dean's car with about 300 BHP though....

If you only want to be fast in 3 directions keep the V6. If you want to be fast in 4 directions you need a V8 or a Forced induction V6.

Given that an Ls1 weighs 390 lbs, I don't see how a V6 could be much lighter than that esp considering that the V6's that came in these cars are all cast iron. Now, add the extra 50 lbs of a T56 vs a T5 and I could see how the V6 combo might be a little lighter. But that 50 lbs isn't going to win the race for the v6 anywhere except maybe a tight auto cross course, all else being equal.

May I refer you to my last post?

Considering a few years back at the CMC road races at California speedway were running in the lap time range of 1:58 to 2:11 seconds on racing rubber, I clicked off a 2:07 on street tires in my little V6 with a top speed of 123mph around the high speed bank. You might want to rethink you assumption.

Sure, go ahead.

67 lbs for a v6, or 87 lbs for a Ls1 block hmmm. Personal opinion, but I'll take the Ls1.
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So you're saying that the CMC cars with the V8 were faster?

Are you clueless?

I must be, please explain.

aww I heart dean. I heart stan. *subscribes*

Street tires vs racing rubber and I am close to mid pack with a fairly stock V6 motor and you need a further explination?

So I strip down to race weight like the CMC cars are,
I put on race rubber,
set my suspensio to race specs,
.....and I would put money I am breathing on the leaders neck.

Then, I actually put a built 60*V6 into the car producing about only a mere 200 hp and they will not touch me (instead of the pathetic 135hp and full creature comfort wieght I am breathing mid pack with right now)

Was that brain surgery to figure out that I seriously had to post this explination?

You are not going to touch me even on a road course unless you are stripped of your street comforts, You had better stick to drag racing my friend.

Lol, I don't know why there is so much discussion about this. Weight wins this argument everytime. if we are talking just handling, the same suspension design in both cars, the lighter one wins.

Dean, you going to get another thirdgen one of these days? We would all miss you around here if you forgot about us, now that you don't have a thirdgen.

--John

Hey John,
I still have one, Its just not in my possesion at the moment. It may be back home real soon though (personal crap I don't care to get into explaining, but the car is safe and title frozen by a restraining order)

Dean

That is good to hear. I always like to see what the next project you do is. It gives me some insperation sometimes. I can't wait though, my Brembo's should be on this week, I am exciting to have some serious braking power, and not have to worry about fade!

Over the winter, when the auto-x and track day schedules come out down there, I should plan a week to head down and meet all you cali boys and go racing for a weekend. I was down in LA this, but it was such a rushed trip, I didn't e-mail you to see if you wanted to meet up.

Sounds like a plan John, hopefullyu we will get together someday.

Back to the point of this V6 Vs V8 thing.

Street car to street car it is virtually impossible to get the balance and agility of a V6 in a V8 even with an LS1.

NOW YES..... strip a car to racing wieght and rid it of al creature comforts, then start cutting holes in everything and relocating stuff,..... You know, major irreverseable work and you can get a V8 car not just lighter, but more bias balanced like the V6 is more in stock form.

What a few of you are not considering is not only the polar weight, but also the roll weight and affects on the roll axis proportionally to balance of the car
A few of you really need to see how small the 60*V6 motor is. Study how it is positioned in the engine bay. The lessor affects it has on the unibody in lateral force compared to the heavier V8. Slam it all you want with the more powerful V8, but even the LS1 is not going to yeild the balance and agilty the V6 proportions in dynamic loading. These things are light.

Yup, even given the same weight a V8 has it weight set further forward, so you still can't get the same balance as a V6. You just can't set a V8 back far enough without major changes to the firewall.

Although, I would still take an extra 200hp, over the better balance, that isn't to say a V6 can't be a heck of a lot of fun, I think a well designed turbo 60* V6 could be done, with a pretty minimal weight penalty, and give it 300hp, and its balance, and it would be a heck of a fast car.

--John

I'm afraid that you don't know much about CMC.

CMC has a spec tire of ToyoRA1's, which are DOT approved. You could call them race tires if you want (since they are used for racing) and you could also call them street tires (they are street legal), but they are by no means racing slicks (they have tread). Granted, they are probably better than what you were using but not by much.

Mid pack? Try back of pack with the guy(s) that are having mechanical or major set-up problems. Engine mods are not legal for CMC. The big, heavy V8's are restricted to ~230 RWHP and many of them use restrictor plates to keep the power down. 3rd gens use stock (all iron) 305's, not nasty V8's.

Per your web page you are already 200 lbs lighter than the CMC rules will allow (3200 lbs).

Engine mods are not legal for CMC and you are already lighter than CMC rules allow. Mute point since you need a 305 for CMC.

I figured that this would be your response. Have a look at the CMC rule book http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/C...-Challenge.pdf Unfortunately a V6 is not legal (I'd like to see it).

You are forgetting about something very important: Aerodynamic Drag is the same weather your car is 3000 lbs or 4000 lbs, 135 HP or 600. You will get killed on the straits and slightly higher cornering speeds aren't going to make up the difference, sorry. Once you get above ~60 mph aerodynamic drag is the biggest force to overcome which leaves much less power available for accelerating the car. I can pull out more info on this if you question it.

True, but if the difference is ~50 lbs you are splitting hairs. Even at 100 or 150 lbs, 100 more horsepower will dissolve that no problem (unless you are not concerned about going forward).

Did you pull these terms out of a text book or did you make them up?

I did some searching on the 2.8 V6 and sounds like they did a good job at keeping it light. One site said it weighs 365 lbs, but I'm not sure if that was complete with intake, distributor, water pump etc. Either way it is very close to that of an Ls1. Might as well take the extra 200 HP, which BTW increases the power to weight ratio of the car more than 2x.

I fully understand the weight distribution argument and I completely agree that weight reduction is the absolute best way to make a car faster on the track. But when you are giving up >50% of your power to save <5% weight you will be slower. There are plenty of practical examples that I can give you that will disprove your theory if you still don't think so. Even your CMC example tells the story.

Under CMC weight guidelines the power to weight ratio is 14.1. My car WITH driver weights 3350. I should be allowed 235hp in a reverse handicap.

My car only has a crank hp of 165. My weight handicap to be equal to a CMC car would be 2330 lbs. I am 1000lbs overweight in guidelines to there aloted power to weight ratio.

I am very familiar with Toyo RA1s (100 TW). They do not grease up like like my 280 TW street tires do.

As for making up terms in suspensions? I happeen to be a licenced and active NASCAR crewchief currently sitting 4th of 27 in our division.



Lets figure out your handicap Stan. Whats your crank HP? And whats you car weight + driver? I was an underdog and was breathing mid pack to the overall average laptimes

agreed, if a V6 was allowed.


agreed, if the rules allowed you to go that light.

Did you know that Paris Hilton is a musician?

How's this relevant? You going to come to Michigan so we can "race"

Actually, you were closer to the back of the pack with the cars that have mechanical problems.

Anyway, I'd say that a 2:07 is impressive given how under-powered you are. Nice job. Just please stop trying to convince everyone that your V6 can kick anyone’s ash, because its not true.