Suspension / ChassisQuestions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?
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what exactly where you thinking...what type of adjustable stuff? two other questions...
if i ended lowering the car...hence i would need to have LCA relocation brackets...and later on i decided i dont want it low anymore...and i got regular height springs...would they just go in without a problem or since the brackets are installed i'd have to keep it low? (hope you follow what im asking). and if i was to go with what you guys suggested...17" wheels...whats the best sized rotor that i should look at to go with?
I'm talking about the adjus'table stuff where you have to unbolt one end of it from the car in order to make changes. Since you won't be racing it constantly, the on car adjustable stuff isn't needed. The only plus to having this is the fast changes which is really nice to try tons of settings in a single track day.
LCARB still allow you to use the stock mounting locations. They just allow two extra mounting locations.
I'm not really sure... I look it up.
Edit:
The largest you can go is the 13.4"x1.25" rotor and 2 piston caliper (C6 Z06). Even that only fits in most 17" wheels. The thicker rotors are just better at getting rid of heat.
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Last edited by racing geek; 01-07-2009 at 09:54 PM.
Reason: More info
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I'd say you can run something like the WilWood 4 piston/13x1.25" kit that Ed offers and something like a C5 (12x1.025 with a 1 piston) or PBR (13" x .81") one piston rear I'm pretty sure will fit in 17s. Have to talk to Ed to see what's the biggest you can run on 17s.
I do not think you should choose by rotor size but by quality of the brake system itself. Most systems will fit in 17's anyways. I quickly skimmed this thread and since I already purchased and received everything I may be able to help some even I still do not know too much, im learning as I go.
I just got both the Wilwood front/rear dynalite kits from Spohn. Will be installed after car goes to body shop for a few weeks. Front rotors are smaller than rear but looks like an amazing kit. Not sure when you plan on purchasing and installing stuff but I am going to have a thread on my entire suspension rebuild... stay tuned. I am also running front/rear coil overs and the wilwood front brakes say they will push the wheels out 1" so I am hoping with the right backspacing that will buy an extra inch where the coil over springs are allowing to run a wider tire maybe? Oh and there is some minor modifications required to the stock front spindles. Not sure how comfortable you have but there is cutting and drilling/tapping of existing holes required. All of this is very easy and straight forward and they provide good instructions/diagrams as well. You can see install instructions on Spohns website. I also just got the strange 12 bolt and all I can say is ...
This thing is a monster and just cant get over how pathetic the stock rear end looks next to this one lol
I agree that the calipers are important, but you need to consider how it all works together-
The size of the rotors helps the heat built in braking dissapate faster, which allows the brakes to be used harder, longer. Too much heat, and the brakes fade. And as RG said, the diameter of the rotor sets the caliper further from the hub which allows it to act like using a longer wrench when breaking something loose. More leverage is better. The kit you mentioned has larger, better calipers, but the size of the rotor is only marginally larger.
This is why I reccomended something like a combination of the Ed Miller 13/4 piston front and 12 or 13/1 rears. Although, with 17s, he could go with something like a 13/6 and 13 or 12/4 combo if he wanted. Although, that would be ALOT of brakes for what he intends to do.
Not sure when you plan on purchasing and installing stuff...
still in the process of saving money...plus i wanna learn as much as i can before i get stuff...id like to purchase everything at once..every suspension component..then every engine component,etc..its gonna take some time still...
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Oh and there is some minor modifications required to the stock front spindles.
SomeGuy25thZ..... what spindles you talkin about exactly?
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This is why I reccomended something like a combination of the Ed Miller 13/4 piston front and 12 or 13/1 rears. Although, with 17s, he could go with something like a 13/6 and 13 or 12/4 combo if he wanted. Although, that would be ALOT of brakes for what he intends to do.
91_5.7_TPI...which ones you talkin about exactly..can you post links.. you say that would be ALOT of brakes for what I intend to do...then what would be the ideal build for which those combos would be used for...if im gonna get upwards of around 500 horses..you saying that, that high quality of brakes isn't necessary? one other thing...back to what you suggested about the rear end...you said to go with the 4th gen rear...you talkin about the 93-97 or 98-02 rear end?
The modifications he mention are if you use your spindles to save money. It involves cutting off the stock caliper brakets and drilling/tapping two holes. Pretty straight foward and easy if you have the tools and a pretty basic knowledge of their use and some experience.
I meant that the second option would be ALOT of brakes for a mostly street driven/weekend warrior type of cars. Something like the 1st would be very nice to have, but, still, probably over kill unless you plan to really give them a serious work out on some back roads, road course, or auto-x. Sorry about the confusion.
The first kit can be found on Ed's site: Front WilWood 13/4 front and Rear PBR 13/1 The second kit I mentioned isn't something he stocks, but I'm sure you could talk with him and get one. I've seen a kit like (13/6 13/4) that made by a board member that fit in 16s. I plan to upgrade from a LS1/LT1 brakes to the WilWood 13/4s in front and whatever I can fit in the rear. Probably just a larger rotor with a pressure forged caliper (stronger)
The rear ends (stock for stock) are essentially the same. Only difference is the overall length is different by a little (never compared the two to know for sure) and the brakes installed on them.
Last edited by 91_5.7_TPI; 01-08-2009 at 09:43 PM.
Something like the 1st would be very nice to have, but, still, probably over kill unless you plan to really....
$2100...thats wild...yeah..ill wait and see what Ed has to say..
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The rear ends (stock for stock) are essentially the same...
so i could go with either one....no big difference?
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The modifications he mention are if you use your spindles to save money. It involves cutting off the stock...
yea...i dont know...id be too worried id F it up or something...i work at my cousins machine shop..so i dont know if that would come in handy at all..but maybe on a future build ill attemp something like that...once i pick up some knowledge. to all of you guys that are stickin around and helpin me out...thanks..more importantly the fact that when i ask a question...you dont just give a short answer..but that you actually answer the question...explain why...and then some.... thats awesome..you guys rock...
$2100...thats wild...yeah..ill wait and see what Ed has to say..
so i could go with either one....no big difference?
yea...i dont know...id be too worried id F it up or something...i work at my cousins machine shop..so i dont know if that would come in handy at all..but maybe on a future build ill attemp something like that...once i pick up some knowledge.
to all of you guys that are stickin around and helpin me out...thanks..more importantly the fact that when i ask a question...you dont just give a short answer..but that you actually answer the question...explain why...and then some.... that's awesome..you guys rock...
Unfortunately, high performance parts require a good chunk of change. That's why I'm going to get the SLP ported intake and then just LS1 brakes instead of only C4 HD brakes. I'm forcing myself to like the compromise.
I plan on swapping my 9 bolt rear for a 2001 10 bolt rear equipped with the LS1 brakes and get this...there are only 30,000 miles on it. It will have much better brakes, a better gear ratio (3.42 vs my 3.27), a much better posi unit, and when I sell my 9 bolt, I should break even. From what I've read, you shouldn't get a 4 channel rear because they require extra modification to the brake line (I think that's it...) because of the TCS.
If you actually work at the machine shop, as in use all the machines and what not, it should be pretty easy for you. I plan on making my own hubs in my Metals class at school and modifying the spindles at home. Here is a diagram of all the required modifications to the spindle... Attachment 169566
Until you see it, it sounds a lot harder then it is.
That's why we're here. One big happy family.
Mike
Last edited by racing geek; 05-20-2009 at 06:28 PM.
ive only been workin there for about a year...run both lathe and mill machines...im currently gonna start to learn Mastercam x3. drilling and tapping...yeah...but as far as cutting away what need to be cut...i wouldnt wanna cut away too much.
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when I sell my 9 bolt...
what do you think i could get for the stock rear end...i couldnt tell you what condition its in...but check this ...my camaro is a california car..so its in darn good condition...and its got 200,000+ miles on it. so im not sure if work has been done to the rear end...thanks Mike.
In all actuality, you can run the stock LS1 rear brakes and that front WilWood and have all the brakes you're likely to need. I talked to a friend last night, and he said unless you actually road raced the hell out of the car, stock rear brakes with good front brakes, good pads and fluid all around you'd be good to go. Or, even stock LS1 all around would be all you need for street driving/drag racing. But, the stock LS1 calipers aren't pressure forged, so the front are a little weak after repeated heat cycles and can actually spread (learned that from RG). I think I've discovered a solution - using C5 calipers. They are pressure forged and stronger than the LS1 ones. From what I can tell, they actually mount right in the LS1 brackets. Just don't take my word for it yet.
If you are going to have 500 hp, you don't want a stock rear end that came in any 82-02 F-Body. Getting the 93-97 or 98-02 design for the rear end wouldn't make any difference other than the length or brakes, and like I said, I don't know the difference in length and you can get whatever brakes you want on an aftermarket.
The modifications to the spindle, like he said, are really super easy. It took me like 20-30 minutes per spindle. All you do is cut those tabs off (band saw, like 45 seconds tops), grind down the edges so you don't have sharp corners (weakens the metal), drill the holes (used a drill press) and then thread the new holes (longest part of the whole operation). I couldn't find anyone to do my hubs locallly, so I just bought a set from Ed with my brackets.
It depends on what rear you have as to what you get. A disk brake, posi rear goes for $300-500 in most situations, and drum/open rears go for alot less. Just no demand.
Dont want to jack the thread but this may help everyone interested in the wildoowd kit...
It says to drill a .332" hole through the existing ones... what size drill bit is that? And I have no access to a drill press - do you guys think this can be done using a nice hand drill and just get it as straight as possible?
That's between a 5/16 and a 3/8 if my math is correct. I'm not sure. I think the one for mine was a 7/16 I think. I don't know if I'd try it with a hand drill unless you have really steady hands. I did mine with a drill press and put alot time trying to balance/center it and it was still off a little.
In all actuality, you can run the stock LS1 rear brakes...
so what your saying is if i get the 9" rear from spohn...i should just order it with the stock 93-02 disc brakes? and the front willwood kit from ED?
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It says to drill a .332" hole through the existing ones... what size drill bit is that?
the closest number on my conversion chart is .3281 (a 21/64 drill) its .004 less than what you specified..dont know if it'll make a big difference...just thought youd like to know.
The 98-02 brakes, yes. The 93-97s are just the same as the 89-92s. I would say for your plans that would be plenty of stoping power. It should do a good job of looking nice too.
i may have asked this before...so forgive me..but as far as going with stock 98-02 disc brakes...what size is the rotor/what kind of caliper,etc...basically my question is...the whole stock brakes consisted of what exactly? and ill have no problem running 17's?
You can run anything from 16s on up. They are a single piston aluminum caliper on a ~12" rotor. For complete specs, search it on napaonline.com. They'll give you everything you need.
Feeling nice tonight:
According to them, it's a 12.01x1.025 rotor.
Last edited by 91_5.7_TPI; 01-09-2009 at 10:55 PM.
been conversing with ED..this is what he's said so far...
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If you want to drag the car, will you want to run skinnies on the front? If so you'll be limited to about a 12" rotor, IE and LS1 setup. If you'll keep the 17"s I'd run C5s up front and a comparable 12-13" setup on the rears. Also, depending on which 17" wheels you will run (4th gens, C5s, etc) a 4th gen rear will suit you better as you won't have to run spacers with the wheels.
You can order the rearend with the axles removed so you can install the brakes, then assemble the rearend. Just order the rear with standard GM corporate 10 bolt disc flanges, tell them you will run 4th gen LS1 rear discs and you'll be fine. Opt for ARP studs when you order, cheap insurance.
id ask ed what he means but he seems like a busy man.. so i figured id ask you guys..
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If so you'll be limited to about a 12" rotor, IE and LS1 setup.
whats he mean by IE?
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Also, depending on which 17" wheels you will run....
do you guys know what hes talking about?
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You can order the rearend with the axles removed so you can install the brakes, then assemble the rearend. Just order the rear with standard GM corporate 10 bolt disc flanges, tell them you will run 4th gen LS1 rear discs and you'll be fine. Opt for ARP studs when you order, cheap insurance.
why do i need to order the rearend with the axles removed so you i could install the brakes?
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tell them you will run 4th gen LS1 rear discs and you'll be fine
im not sure if hes saying i should tell spohn i want the rear end with no discs or brakes? what do you guys make off all this? maybe you could elaborate on this for me... thanks..later.
I'm guessing he means 1LE, but I'm not sure. It's the 3rd gen high performance brake option. 12" rotor with 2 piston calipers (smaller than the LS1s).
Some wheels have more clearance for brakes than do other wheels of the same size. Such as the difference between the stock Trans Am GTA crosslace wheels that have less clearance than the other GM 3rd gen wheels.
I don't know- I've never ordered a rear. Ed or someone else would know.
I think there is a difference in mounting brackets on the axle housing on the rear ends. The LS1s mounting brackets probably has more options for rear brakes than does the older design.
You have to order the rear end with no axles installed because they have to come out to change the backing plates. If you order the rear from Spohn with the standard 10 bolt disk brake flanges, all you would need to do is get stock LS1 backing plates, and LS1 rear rotors and calipers.
If you get it with the correct flanges and axles removed, this is the order in which it has to be done.
1. Bolt on stock LS1 backing plate
2. Install new seals with the axle
3. Slip on the rotors
4. Bolt on the calipers and the pads
5. Connect e-brake cables and brake lines
6. Bleed the brakes
7. Bed in the pads and rotors
8. Set a new personal best 60-0 time
He is assuming you will buy his brake kit and you will only the rear end with flanges from Spohn. If you tell Spohn you will be installing LS1 brakes on the rear end, they will know what flanges to give you. So yeah, you dont need any brake components from spohn.
sorry..i know the treads been kinda getting of topic as far as suspension...but these are the last few questions...and no more talk about anything else except whats intended... let me just see if i understand this correctly... im gonna want the fourth gen rear 98-02..cause itll suit my needs better.. and as far as options...
Center Section: doesnt really matter as long as its not spool (spool is intended more for drag)
Axle Options: i want standard
Axle Flanges: I tell Spohn im installing LS1 brakes on the rear and i want standard 10 bolt disk brake flanges
Case Type: nodular iron should be sufficient.
96-02 (TCS) ABS: not sure
ABS Reluctor Rings: not sure
Gear Ratio: its my preference..but probably a 3.89
Wheel Studs: ARP studs
Rear Brakes: dont need them
Fill or Drain Bungs: both
Sway Bar Install Kit: yes
Conversion U-Joint: yes
LCA Relocation Brackets: yes
Housing Finish: my preference.
okay so... not sure what to do as far as the ABS goes....and i dont need the rear brakes..i tell them...no axles installed....then i get stock LS1 backing plates, and LS1 rear rotors and calipers from ED and for the front i go with what he suggested.. the C5s ( not sure which ones hes talking about exactly...the C5 brake upgrade or the Baer Custom C5 Setup or something else... maybe you know?) so does that sound about right...and id be done the rear end..so i can finally get it off my mind and i could continue concentrating on the topic at hand? thanks for giving me all this useful info... hopefully youll be around when i finally order all the components...cause i know that im definetely gonna need installation help... one other thing...what do you mean by... Bed in the pads and rotors?
The center section depends on what you'll be doing most. I'm not sure how a locker really works exactly because I've never looked into drag racing stuff. I'd probably try to get a good posi, but it's up to you.
I'd You don't want ABS, you car doesn't have it.
The iron will be fine, but if it were me, I'd get aluminum.
Make sure you know what rear ratio you want before you order.
Everything else seems in place. Might want to get a second opinion before you order, though.
i was thinking the trac lock posi or the auburn posi...i might go with aluminum... im thinking 3.70 or 3.89...ill probably call spohn tell them what i want..and see what comments they have on it..
its been a while...hows everybody doin...sorry i havent been keepin up...got hours cut at work..n moneys been low..not savin as much...also been concentrating on practicing my guitar religiously...i gonna go through the thread n see where we left off...later
hey guys....what up..sorry i havent been around...guess its more my loss.. i know i was all like... hope everyone sticks around n helps...yet i kinda flaked...sorry... i tend to do things in spurts... but im back so hopefully we can start where we left off...if thats cool of course? so here is a list of parts... was wondering if you could go through and give me input( to see if i got the bases covered)... n the list is not in stone (just for reference)... just something and/or a guide so i know how much its gonna end up costing so i know how much i need... also if you see some parts i got listed n think i can find a better price out there then let me know (input is appreciated)...once again thanks so far...dont think i could do it without you guys... so heres the rough draft of the list......
K-Member http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...C-BBC-LT1.html $465.00
Options: Material 4130N Chrome Moly + $250.00
Color Gloss Black
Spring type Stock coil springs
Motor Mount Pads Sbc/Bbc/Lt1 + $50.00
K-member Brace Mounts W/ brace Mounts + $25.00
K-member Braces Include Braces + $65.00
Material 4130N Chrome Moly + $100.00
Bushing Type Polyurethane
Color Gloss Black
ball joints - connects control arms to spindles
control arms (A-arms) - supports springs, houses endlinks, ball joints, and control arm bushings
control arm bushings - connects control arms to frame
spindles - connects control arms to wheels and struts
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...GM-F-Body.html
Spohn Precision Front End Rebuild Kit - 1982-1992 GM F-Body $299.95
center link - connects inner tie rods to idler and pitman arms
idler arm - connects center link to frame
tie rods, outer - controls alignment and steering, connects to spindles. Outer tie rods have the grease fitting on the bottom of the pivot.
tie rods, inner - controls alignment and steering, connects to center link. Inner tie rods have the grease fitting on the side of the pivot.
tie rod sleeves - adjusts alignment, connects inner and outer tie rods
Everything seems good... and expensive lol. I would think that you could find the sway bars alot cheaper than that at your local pick and pull or online here. I got mine (well, the whole car) for $150 and just bought new bushings. That's still less than one from year one and you know it'll fit since it's GM. You can also get the ProKit from ebay for less than that, or you might find a member saling theirs for less as well. Just trying to save you a few bucks. My mind's not really in gear right now, so I'll look over all that stuff later haha
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
yeah...thanks 91_5.7_TPI...glad to see ur still around to help out...times r tough and little money is comin in.... expensive...yeah... i hear ya... but like i said, its just a guide...those parts arent necissarily what ill go with...but at least i know every little part that ill need. (so its more like what parts are required to put it together) thats not even counting engine/paint/wiring/interior...so ill have to do some diggin...but yeah, take another look through and tell me if im missing any components. i think i covered most of it... trying to figure out how much it'll take to at least get the suspension and rear end so i could at least get the thing off the jack stands so i could roll it around...if need be. thanks again...later..ROB
Last edited by weaz4200; 04-01-2009 at 11:24 PM.
Reason: adding info
Nope, your too late... I will now be ignoring this thread and anyone involved. LOL
I'll try and check in every once and a while, but I'm swapped with homework, and probably will be until mid-May when my AP exams will be over. Lately I have only been able to check updates on here for a couple minutes when I can get a wifi connection on my iPod.
91_5.7_TPI... I'll read through the tech article and send it out after school tomorrow. I didn't even realize I've had it this long until now. Sorry about that.
Mike
I plan on getting more personal time with my car over Spring Break. I'll either install the LS1 front brakes or my nitrous system... I'm PUMPED!
Last edited by racing geek; 04-02-2009 at 01:07 AM.
okay so i started from the beginning.....sorry for the long break...to much crap goin on... 91_5.7_TPI u were talkin bout this brace right...had one when i got the car... http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/k...nt=camaro6.jpg ...
Now goin back to ur post on lowering the f-body... When selecting bushings, sticking polyurathane everywhere isn't really the best choice. While polyurathane is great in sway bars, it looses it's shine in places like the LCAs. (See FootNote 1) Rod ends work well in the LCAs, but to some they are too harsh. I have a set of LCAs built from parts ordered from the circle track suppliers. Heavy duty rubber bushing on the body and a rod end on the axle. A-arms don't see the same twisting forces that the LCAs undergo, so polyurathane is pretty good here. but the best option (or so I've been told) are the Del-A-Lums offered by Global West. Polyurathane also works in the pan hard bar. I prefer a combo ended set up for the PHB, as well. I use NAPA parts for the steering linkage bushings (tie rods, ball joints, etc). Moog also makes quality replacement parts. A word of caution, polyurathane anywhere will squeak more than rubber, but it's not really enough to be a bother as long as your in the car.
so as far as that part of the post... can u list all the parts tha'll need bushings and what bushings u suggest? i know this is the list i had so far (its been a while n u probably forgot)... take a look and let me know were i could throw in some changes or what else u'd suggest that i still need to consider buyin... thanks..ROB
K-Member http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...C-BBC-LT1.html $465.00
Options: Material 4130N Chrome Moly + $250.00
Color Gloss Black
Spring type Stock coil springs
Motor Mount Pads Sbc/Bbc/Lt1 + $50.00
K-member Brace Mounts W/ brace Mounts + $25.00
K-member Braces Include Braces + $65.00
Material 4130N Chrome Moly + $100.00
Bushing Type Polyurethane
Color Gloss Black
ball joints - connects control arms to spindles
control arms (A-arms) - supports springs, houses endlinks, ball joints, and control arm bushings
control arm bushings - connects control arms to frame
spindles - connects control arms to wheels and struts
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...GM-F-Body.html
Spohn Precision Front End Rebuild Kit - 1982-1992 GM F-Body $299.95
center link - connects inner tie rods to idler and pitman arms
idler arm - connects center link to frame
tie rods, outer - controls alignment and steering, connects to spindles. Outer tie rods have the grease fitting on the bottom of the pivot.
tie rods, inner - controls alignment and steering, connects to center link. Inner tie rods have the grease fitting on the side of the pivot.
tie rod sleeves - adjusts alignment, connects inner and outer tie rods
