Is it worth boxing / strengthening the panhard rod brace? So the stamped steel bracket (track bar) above the panhard rod it self? I got an adjustable UMI panhard rod and been thinking if it's worth doing something about the panhard rod brace as it's a weak design, but if no noticble benefit I would leave it alone so seeking advice / comments on this before I decide what to do.

I myself haven't heard of anyone doing that, ill agree that stock it looks like a weak design. Depends on what your're doing with the car i guess, for street use i wouldn't but thats just me.

it wont hurt, but i dont know if it will help.

Thx Guys, well if no one done it I guess it wont be a high priority on my list ...

BMR makes one, though it's real purpose is to make more room for a larger exhaust.

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/phr/Uphr-installed2.jpg

JamesC

I looked at that one a while back and I do like the design but I'm not a fan of moving the strut brace and rod further down. But as you say main reason for this one would be more clearance for a larger exhaust.

UMI makes that upper relocation bar as well, and yes its only purpose is for exhaust clearance. It does however lower the rear roll center, which requires other suspension work to "correct", if your really worried about the handling aspect of the car.

I really dont understand why nobody has stepped up and just made a tubular replacement for the upper panhard? I know it will do nothing more that add some "bling" but it would really complement the rest of the rear suspension components that are available, no sense looking at a lot of nice powder coated tubular parts, then having this rusty, stamped POS up in there with it.

Grantinalii (spl) used to make, and i dont know if they still do, a new heavier stamped replacement for the upper panhard, but it cost a fortune and still looked like crap.

From what I hear, the Granatelli upper panhard is just an OEM stamped unit that's been boxed and powdercoated red. And sold for nearly $300.

My review:

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/af...r-panhard.html (Review of the Granatelli Upper Panhard Brace)

JamesC

I boxed my stock panhard bar. I autocross and occasionally road course the car with 17x9.5" slicks. I have no idea if the stocker would have held up or not, I've never raced the car with the bar unboxed. I've not had any issues with a boxed stock arm though. Most people upgrade to an adjustable unit, which i'll do eventually because I'm going to lower the car some.

LMAO, 'POS', haha, that had me laughing for a while, its so right.

Its definitely something I'd like to replace like stated in the quote above (Its a POS rusty stamped POS) but it won't be until after a lot of other parts first, might have it boxed for like $20 until I have a reason to get a 'GOOD LOOKING' one.

The panhard and upper panhard brace are both rusty POS stamped....

JamesC

The upper pan hard bar ties the left and right rear sub frames together. Works just like a front steering brace pretty much. The stock bar is easy to box or reinforce. The thing being over looked that no one has ever menchined is the fact that one part that mounts to the chassis on the right side is just a tube a bolt goes through. which will allow some limited but free movement and flex side to side between the rear sub frames. i don't know why GM did that

that bar has been removed in many cars, it is another weight reduction for drag racing that is done.
if you are cornering hard it may be a benefit to supprt it but i really doubt it.

i beleive its more of a support for the forces acting on the panhard bar mount. its a bracket that protrudes off the frame... this puts an awful lot of stress on it that would push it right off the frame when the car is driven the stock upper panhard brace supports the mount and controls the outward force from the rear moving up and down and pushing on the brace from the PHB. i boxed mine in a couple spots with 1/8" steel. only really to reinforce it if it does anythiing. personally i would have rather made it out of 1 1/4"x.095 tubing for a better look and increase strength. but that stock piece is heavy and is 1/8" steel. same thickness as the PHB/LCA etc. so i can bet u it sees alot of force.

as far as the pivot point mount with the bolt through on the PHB brace. i wouldl think that the mount still flexes or the rear subframe flexes alil and maybe this allowed for the movement not to eventually weaken the piece and cause failure. i would also prob deduce that it allows for easier removal for gastank removal etc.

I 100% agree with all the points you state here.

I had to selectively box mine in sections because the panhard bar does travel into the cavilty of the panhardbrace slightly on one end. I had to recess box it.

What I also did (and I can't find any old pictures of it done, I did it when I also installed the adjustable panhard mout on the axle side- no pics of that either. I posted them a few years ago though somewhere here) is I took flat stock and reinforced the chassis side mount. I found an old pic off my Cardomain site that I just doctored up showing where I welded the plates to the chassis bracket. That bracket is weak from the factory and yes it does hang down and have major forces exerted on it the more lateral grip is increased. That PH brace was put on to support the chassis brace from cracking off and the tube slip through bolt is to help against lateral failure of that mount. Note also that the other side is bolted on using "3" bolts in a triangular pattern to help disperse lateral tearing of the metal.

It's only $125

Yup. Under hard cornering loads the PHB force would try to twist the PHB mount right off the frame. The brace eliminates nearly all of the twisting moment and splits part of the cornering force off to the other frame rail.

The brace only needs to carry force along its length, so one bolt at the PHB bracket end is sufficient. I imagine that the brace has to account for build tolerances in the rest of the things back there else it won't fit up nicely in production.

Back to the original question - I doubt that you'd ever be able to tell a car with a boxed PHB brace from a 'normal' one. Unless your driving commonly includes sliding sideways into curbs, anyway .


Norm

the price dropped then, i do remember looking at it years ago and it was over 300 bux

At the time I purchased, the price was $125 on sale as noted in my review above..

JamesC

I boxed my stock panhard bar. Looks nice

Sounds like this is one of those parts that you buy because you know it'll help all the other parts rather than it being an upgrade from itself.

I think anything stock on the car should be made anew. Reason being, they're 20yo cars, yes they haven't broke but I'm sure the metal isn't as strong anymore, thus probably putting more stress where it usually took it away.

IDK sounds right to me...ha ha, Ill probably pick up BMR's piece. But way way down the road.

A PHB and its brace may have less "fatigue life" remaining, but unless they have been damaged they'll be able to withstand the same load. Just not as many times.


Norm

I boxed my panhard brace, too. They can indeed be bent, my old one was.

COST.

That brace is hollow for a reason. you get enough travel ....OR... you decide to lower your car at all the panahrd will articulate up into the center void of the Panhard Brace. You now have no void so the panhard will bend when it makes contact....whoops.

Boys and girls, do not try this at home. My car rides inside that cavity most of the time. I could never install that boxed brace on my car.

In order for it to tuck itself into the panhard rod brace... the car would, 1.) have to be lowered ALOT. 2.) squat like a mother with really soft drag springs in the rear and drag shocks etc.

im sure GM did this just to save on material... which is why they did the same things on the LCA and the TQ arm... they did it on all of them... its cheaper to just shape flat steel in a mold.

charlie 87...nice job and nice welds... i dont think u needed that much bracing lol but it looks good. but as a precaution... when installed check for range of movement and clearances to what vetruck stated. i think u should be fine.

Dean's reply will be interesting.

JamesC

just saying a pic of it riding up into the brace would help... i had my car lowered with sportlines and mine didnt ride into the brace. i could see it happening under the conditions i stated... of course u wouldnt have to worry and u could run the boxed panhard bar support bar if your running a relocation kit for the panhard bar... to correct the geometry issue when lowing the car. this would lower the moutning point at the panhard brace on the passenger frame about an inch or 2. the adjustable panhard bar only corrects the centering of the rear end in relationship to the body/wheel wells. does not correct the geometry.

Never heard of one, and don't believe anyone on this site has ever mentioned anything like it.

This would be nice to clarify/verify.

I plan to lower my car on 2" drop spindles in the front and custom 2" lowering springs from eibach in the rear. I plan to achieve about a 1.75"-2" drop.

Would this, if true (I'm waiting for the responses) mess with me getting the BMR piece down the road. I really want to know.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Jegster/754011/10002/-1


Been mentioned plenty of times on this sight.

jegster one(i would get if it wasnt so much $$ for just a bracket lol)
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/41055/10002/-1

BMR one with tubular upper panhard brace
http://www.bmrfabrication.com/phr/Uphr-installed.jpg

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/phr/Uphr-installed2.jpg

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/phr/UpperPHR.jpg

OOOHHHH, haha got that mixed up with LCARB's...thought it was another design. My bad.

I am deeply flattered, you guys know I always put my money where my mouth is...

picture tells a thousand words.

-yellow circle is where PHR will travel into the void area up inside the PHB.

-Yes my car is lowered quite a bit.

-yes I did run progressive rate rear springs that built rate from 165-to-225 lbs in 1 1/2" travel...PLUS I have Koni shaft style bumpstops that made contact at about 1" to further increase rate prgressively and reduce travel -think of it as a rear "coilbind" setup I ran, (the only person to ever do so I have heard of on a 3rd gen).

-ALSO NOTE green circle and markings indicate I ran a PHR adjuster on the axle side lowering my rear roll center. Had I also ran in the factory higher mount it would 'START INSIDE' the PHB at stagnant or static height before suspension travel. As it stood, it started just kissing where it would contact the guys brace boxed above in photos if that brace where installed on my car. First bump I would bend my PHR even with the axle side mount lowered 2".

- I weld and fabricate. Had I seen proper clearance, I would have boxed it myself long before just for principle. I was very scared to knowing I would bend my PHR in my situation. So be it.

that pic doesnt really show anything. but i understand what your saying. how much is it lowered? those rear springs are stiff... they shouldnt allow much travel and then include bumpstops.

seems u would have about 1.5-2" travel max before your rear rates and bumpstop sent spring rate through the roof... i still dont see how it will contact with 1.5-2" of suspension travel. did u lower the geometry of the PHB at the subframe support? or just the rear? that would have given u the extra clearance. i thought to correct the suspension geometry u had to lower both sides on the PHB.

anywho... anyway u can have a fat man jump on the back of your car as u take a pic of the suspension bind so we could see the PHB enter the PHB support? wat i did was reinforce mine with 1/8" steel in about 2" slivers at a bout 4 places on the PHB support bar.... i didnt box the whole thing.

"Open" sections like those also don't trap water, snow, slush, mud, or other crap either. If anything, they tend to be self-cleaning. Making millions of tubular sections with adequate quality control to keep all that stuff outside of a closed tube and do so for the factory's desired price point is probably a contradiction of terms.


Norm

relocation kit for the panhard barI know that there is/was at least one PHB relocating kit, as Jon Aadland over on FRRAX has had one for a while. Might have been by Unbalanced Engineering.

If you can cut/weld/reinforce with reasonable skill, I don't think it would be all that hard to work up your own.


Norm

I understand the relocation kit now and how the PHB could travel into the PHR

How low must you go before having to worry about hitting the PHR with the PHB.

I am lowering my car 2" (1000# front springs, 250# 2" lowering rear springs) and to me thats about as low as any camaro with 3" exhaust should go, but that's me. Wouldnt even try with longtubes.

So Vetruck, should I be looking into a PHB relocation kit with using the BMR PHR when the time comes? Or will I be fine just using an aftermarket PHB and BMR's PBR without worry? I'd like to buy the new BMR piece if possible.

If you can't see what you are looking at then I do not know what else to tell you. The picture shows it clearly. No passenger load or weight is in the car either in that picture, I actually have my knee holding the rear bumper up slightly lying on my back trying to get enough room to get under there to get a level picture so if anything the rear is jacked up by my knee 1/4-1/2". I did not bother saying that becasue even then its quite apparent the PHR is very close to the PHB.

i have an old website of this car with many detailed photos of it. The front fender lips off the ground to center arch measure 24 3/4". the rear measure 26 1/8". The factory bumpstops were trimmed down and reshaped 1 1/2" shorter becasue the rear axle would damn near ride on them all the time and would definately make solid contact while cornering hard when they were factory size. This car has a max front travel of 1 1/2", and a max rear suspension travel of 2". For this car to move those 1 1/2"front and 2" rear fully it would have to take a hard impact bump. Normal daily front travel is 1" and normal daily rear travel is about 1 5/8'- Note that my normal driving is very aggressive and high g forces. I do not puzzy foot cars. I do not drive them because they are built that way, on the contray, I build them becasue I drive that way.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/518752

I personally just left the factory Panhard Brace alone. It worked fine. What I did do was I plated the chassis mount to reinforce it since it hangs so low, takes high exerted lateral force, and was only stamped steel engineering.

That BMR relocator lowers the PH rod on the chassis side which would have inverted it on my car. THe pic you are seeing of my car is slightly jacked. I like to retain the chassis side 3/4" split higher than the axle side so that cornering squat will retain level lateral loading of the panhard rod and not induce jacking one way and squat another cornering direction.

There is alot going on on the rear of everyones cars that need to all be set in sequence for this to work. Spring rates, compression and rebound forces, torque arms specs, rear brake bias, rear weight, roll couple, front brake dive, LCA angles and lengths, swaybar size and mounts, chassis and other componant flex, roll weight and pitch weight. It all has to be married for the suspension to stay in the perameters of functioning articulation- Unsprung weigh is a major key, and that cost big bucks. I had big bucks into this car. The weigh of the suspension can not overpower the chassis weight when set into lateral grip, The suspension has to move to attain mechanical grip, yet be limited to its articulation range that functions.

Totally thanks. I guess some big time test and tune will be needed to find out.

Has anyone heard of a machine that you put your car onto that would simulate driving on bumpy roads, different banks (race track), ditches and such. I remember seeing soemthing like this and they used it to find the best suspension setup for a Street/Strip/Track car. I dont remember at all where I saw it or what I should be searching for to find it again....as this may help me/us (if I can get onto one or find one) figure out what to do with my suspension, as I could sit outside the car and watch it personally, then test on a track and compare what to do next based on feel and what is actually happening.

Let me know, thanks Vetruck

Shaker rig. I think Circle Track magazine had something on 7-post shaker rigs a while back.

Norm

Let me give an example of suspension change I just did on the front of my racecar (NASCAR Supertruck). This will explain what I had to do to the rear to balance it through multiple testings the night before our race last week.

Goal: Trying to increase heat into LF tire. Success? yes

I changed the LF spring rate down from 350 to 300. I pushed LF track with out another 5/8" to get our full 70" limit according to max rules- this helps with leverage against roll.

Dynamically to rebalance the car going intot he corner (this change created a push condition) I increased the LF shock rebound two clicks. Now dynamically the LF still loads like a 350 spring going in, but does not diagonall recoil back onto the RR before steady state. This change allowws the nose to settle and set prior to corner entrance under braking jsut as it is enteing the corner. We get just enough to get it to rotate in as it is "tieing down" the LF preventing body roll and inducing squat.

-so now what? The roll couple is off and steady state has changed due the change in dynamic loading upon entrance. The car is setting differently into steady state and is loose at steady state, but great going in. Do you go more with shock valving, or re up the spring back 25 of the 50 lb drop? No, I left the front alone.
I went to the rear of the car.

Why the rear? Becasue the front is squating more- thuis leveraging the front springs more making the car steer quicker with the overall now lower rate proportion. What can I do to get the rear to squat proprtionately under braking into the corner?...of course, the 3rd link (On 3rd gens this would be the TQarm) i bump this up 1/4".

- Now the car sets great and is better at steady state but still just a TAD loose center and off the corner. There is my chance!!!!! I have been needing to get hte tire stagger in the rear closer in split. I run what I calculated to be 1/2" more tire split (size in circumfrence) than what the track needs. THis is the distance the outside tire needs to cover slightly greater distance thatn the inside tire around the corner- we run a spool rearend so it is always locked up solid axle. As you can imagine, going down the straights, you want 0" stagger.

-SOOO, I close up the stagger .2" (I am now .2" higher than calculated perfect- but thats so close its peanuts at this point. + or - .2 is golden I feel. +.4 was not.) This change tightened the car just the tad we needed center off without hurting us under braking and going in.

-Conclusion: We won last week. We had legs coming off the corners. We were giving just a tad going in, but had by far the best truck on the track battling the finish we came out victorious wwith great heat management on all four tires and plenty left,plus putting down all the power coming off onto the straight without wheelspin or being nose tight to the wall.
We are the #18 truck.

Although I didn't get half the words, I did understand what you were saying, that is great information. Like I said, some of the words were new to me but still very understandable (remember I comprehend badly). I didn't even have to read it twice. Great read.

Yep, Sorry I H8 WWD, I missed your question as I was still typing earlier. Norm is correct on this 7 axis shaker treadmill. If I have my information correct there were only 3 of these units made and then banded for some reason or such. As to my knowledge on three of the major NASCAR teams have them mounted in wind tunnels.

If you ever get out to the tracks on test only days (we had one here early last year at California Speedway) you will notice little electronic devises attached to a few of the big name teams. (side note, it is weird watching guys like jeff Gordon runing around a major track without the spponsor wraps on the exterior of the car and just his #24 on a plain grey car). You will notice on the right rear of the car 'on the ground" a little red laser dot. What that unit is doing is calculating in real time the ditance tothe ground from its mount height in the car. They are scanning differendt setup features and recording all of this information of the track through every compression bank, dip, bump, squashed beer can, etc as they are going around the track. theytransfer than data to the Shaker machine and further do testing based on the imputed track. In other words, they take the car back to the shaker and duplicate the cars heights and g's etc on lets say Claifornia speedway on those coupleof setups and then from there they have the track charateristics to now do other changes without even going to that track!!!! This is why they were supposedly banned. NASCAR limits the amount of practice each team gets on a track.

I had picutes somewhere of that little red dot, I can not find them.

Its all about the big bucks. It is virtually impossible for a little guy like me to break into the cup series as a crew cheif anymore because it is all come pretty much down to the computer agae where decissions are made in labratories rather than calculated guesses in the heat of the moment at the track like we still do at the home track level in the NASCAR Whelen Series racing. Most of the big name drivers have come from Whelen short tracks across the U.S. including a few from Toyota Speedway were we race. Two names locally that could be next are Nick Jonides and Rip Michaels. Nick I am friends with and hang in his suite with them every race night (Actually his team owner Loyd McGee), but Rip I have never formally met even though e pass eachother probably 20 times a race night. I keep my eyes open and learn what I can hanging with them.

Here is an in car video of the last half of our race on 4-409 form RJ Johnsons car (truck, but its basically a car with truck fiberglass panels) RJ's team is affiliated with Kenny Schaeder and the Race Car Factory.You will see Mason Britton (Our blue and black truck # 18) pop in fornt butmostly sitting outside right out of veiw of RJ's camera. RJ runs real shallow even illegally crossing both under the white line. on rare occations but has never been called for it. It is very dangerous the line he runs. Coming off wrong can take out the entire feild- Bu they are racecar factory and politically get a few fudged now and then from Irwindale. Dynasties, what is one to do other than bet them ligetimately and watch them whine that we kept taking away RJ's line. Maybe next time we should just stop for him so he can come all the way back up to the wall....hmmm. heck, let him use all four lanes at once- there's a selfish thought.

Too much fun
by the way, my name is Dean Ekas. Vetruck in my inanhnimate object trucks name
(Vetruck is my daily driver 89 Chevy 1/2ton, My now"ex" wife drove my Camaro named "On A Rail" My 17 year old daughter will end up with it soon so I will tinker with it again someday)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwUuM...e=channel_page

Thanks both of you. That was what I was referring to. Thanks again.

P.S. I think I have new respect for nascar drivers and the likes. Its got to be tons of fun catching up only inches in 10 some laps....damn thats an adrenaline rush and a half. Thanks for the video.

What you should try sometime is one of the NASCAR driving experiences. Then try to imagine more than just the lead car and maybe one other "follow" car being up video-close all around you. Hint: if possible, take a ride-along first so that you have a better feel for what the cars can do going in. Hint #2: they do drive a bit different from anything you're likely used to, and I'm not talking about the power or the noise or even the grip.


Norm

Down here at lowes they got the gordon and andretti driving experience . They let you pass and do what ever you want, no lead car.

Check out Granatelli's boxed panhard brace:

http://www.granatellimotorsports.com...ay.php?gid=157

Mmmm, yeah. Mighty impressive claims for a part that is not supposed to move.


Norm