Suspension / ChassisQuestions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?
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I'm planning on rebuilding the rest of the front suspension which would make my suspension 100% completely new with the a-arms. I am installing MOOG Iroc replacement springs i got from summit (the same ones that Spohn sells on their site).
How are UMI A-ARMS? Do they lower the car? Are they strong enough to take street abuse and withstand big potholes? Do they improve handling? Do they make the ride alot harsher? Do they really take off 5.5lbs per pair? Are they better than stock and in what sense? What will I lose by going with UMI's rather than staying with stock?
I've seen pics and they look nice but I don't want to pay 400$ for a pretty part only! I'd like to get all these questions answered before I go ahead and order this... To Canada I would be paying 480 CAD$ plus shipping plus customs ... these things are gonna end up costing me 600$ CAD probably by the tim they get here..
Thanks
-Marc
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
ah okay cool.. I think most people are at work (like myself) and will respond later tonight anyway...
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
Personally, I say spend the extra cash on some good shocks or tires. You'd see more bang for buck there.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
I got new Tokico blue shocks, installing new MOOG iroc replacements springs, and im getting Eagle F1 GS-D3 245/50/16 tires on all fours anyway. Just wondering if these a-arms will make any difference if I had all those things anyway..
thnx
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
Are they strong enough to take street abuse and withstand big potholes? YES
Do they improve handling? UNSURE, But give a better "feel of the car" from the poly bushings
Do they make the ride alot harsher? Full poly units will make a nice street ride.
Do they really take off 5.5lbs per pair? These are lighter than stock, when swapped you will lose about/around 5.5lbs
Are they better than stock and in what sense? Tubular, Lighter, Stronger, NEW
What will I lose by going with UMI's rather than staying with stock? Nothing but gain. That and maybe missing the stock parts...yeah right
Someone may come in and correct anything I may have misinformed him about.
There are quite a few people who have UMI parts and are involved in Street Driving, Drifting, Road Racing, AutoX.
FROM UMI'S WEBSITE....
Description
UMI Performance A-Arms are designed to offer a light weight set-up that is still capable of handling every day street abuse. This tubular set-up removes 5-1/2 lbs off the front of your vehicle while adding increased ride quality and reducing bushing deflection. These new lower A-Arms are supplied with new ball joints installed, Energy Suspension grease-able polyurethane bushings and sway bar mounting provisions. This lower A-Arm kit is designed to work with the factory springs and lowering springs. A-Arms are fabricated using 1.250” drawn over mandrel tubing, CNC machined ball joint holders and feature both MIG and TIG welding for the utmost in product strength.
Features:
- 1.250” x 0.120” Mild Steel DOM Tubing - CNC Machined Ball Joint Cups - New Installed Grease-able Ball Joints - Shock Mounts are CNC Machined from 0.188” Steel Plate - Works with Factory Springs and Lowering Springs - Energy Suspension Grease-able Polyurethane Bushings - Supplied Fully Assembled and Ready to Install - Brilliant Durable Powder Coat - Uses OEM Hardware
"What will I lose by going with UMI's rather than staying with stock? Nothing but gain. That and maybe missing the stock parts...yeah right"
Thanks for the response! My only question was with this one... So are you saying that with the UMI a-arm i will lose steering response?
Oh and I forgot to mention in my stock a-arm right now I have new ball joints and ES polyurethane bushings.. Will there be any diff from that? My stock a-arms aren't rusted or bent or anything... Although my tire rubs when i turn the wheel all the way, maybe it's a bent a-arm?
thnx!
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
Last edited by hellz_wings; 04-15-2009 at 05:23 PM.
Reason: backwards explanation of part
"What will I lose by going with UMI's rather than staying with stock? You won't lose anything really, except front steering response due to them being new and with poly bushings, and the extra weight."
Thanks for the response! My only question was with this one... So are you saying that with the UMI a-arm i will lose steering response?
Oh and I forgot to mention in my stock a-arm right now I have new ball joints and ES polyurethane bushings.. Will there be any diff from that? My stock a-arms aren't rusted or bent or anything... Although my tire rubs when i turn the wheel all the way, maybe it's a bent a-arm?
thnx!
Oops, edit your post, i had that backwards, meaning if you stay stock over UMI you will lose the added steering response (feel) UMI a-arms give.
Wow super nice maybe they are worth it after all... It's tempting... I have the money for it... I love having a car that handles well... Makes me feel so much more confident about going through turns and twisty roads!
I think I am going to get these in Black!
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
i have UMI front a-arms and i've beaten the hell out of them and no problems. they look good too
The only real benifit of them in weight reduction. The factory a-arms are plenty strong, you can have new poly bushing installed to tighten things up if you want. So i would make sure the rest of your setup is as good as you can get it before you shell out $$$ for a-arms. my
I'd say that if your ball joints and bushings are relatively new, save your money and wait until your ball joints are worn out.
Another idea would be for you to box your front control arms. I haven't done this but it would essentially be the same principle. Making your control arms more rigid to minimize deflection. If it's primary use is street your not going to notice 5 1/2 pounds anyway. Just an idea.
Another idea would be for you to box your front control arms. I haven't done this but it would essentially be the same principle. Making your control arms more rigid to minimize deflection. If it's primary use is street your not going to notice 5 1/2 pounds anyway. Just an idea.
there really is no point boxing the arms, they dont really defelct that much. Unless you are a weight nazi, just replace the bushings with poly, new ball joint and your set
I got one of the 1st sets of UMI's A arms. And put them on the car pretty quickly after I received them. I had already purchased the Spohn A arms, then UMI announced that their A arms where almost ready. So I sold the Spohn A arms and bought the UMI one's. I daily drive my Camaro, and it does see the crappy streets. And they have held up fine, not a single issue so far. Now I can't really tell you how they will affect your ride. Because I did everything at once (Struts,a arms, springs, steering linkages)
I'm planning on rebuilding the rest of the front suspension which would make my suspension 100% completely new with the a-arms. I am installing MOOG Iroc replacement springs i got from summit (the same ones that Spohn sells on their site).
How are UMI A-ARMS? Do they lower the car? Are they strong enough to take street abuse and withstand big potholes? Do they improve handling? Do they make the ride alot harsher? Do they really take off 5.5lbs per pair? Are they better than stock and in what sense? What will I lose by going with UMI's rather than staying with stock?
I've seen pics and they look nice but I don't want to pay 400$ for a pretty part only! I'd like to get all these questions answered before I go ahead and order this... To Canada I would be paying 480 CAD$ plus shipping plus customs ... these things are gonna end up costing me 600$ CAD probably by the tim they get here..
Thanks
-Marc
If that's the case you might want to spend your money elsewhere. Since you have new ball joints and poly bushings in your factory A-arms, there isn't much of an advantage of switching to tubular. Pretty much the only advantage is going to be saving a whopping 2.75 Lbs per side, not worth it IMO.
If you're going to install Moog 5665 rears, be prepared to cut them for anything near stock ride height.
JamesC
I thought those were stock IROC replacement springs though?? Cutting the springs is dangerous i've heard... Also I would think that the MOOG springs raise the car a bit because the 22 year old springs must be sagging by now, I'm prepared for a litte raise in right height, as long as it sits even front and back and it's like stock..
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
I'm prepared for a litte raise in right height, as long as it sits even front and back and it's like stock..
It won't. I've replaced the OE insulator with radiator hose and cut a portion of the coil already and the car still sits higher than stock. Actually, in the next few days I intend to cut some more. A search will provide a lot more info on the problem.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Nietzsche
If some idiot tries to cut them with a simple torch, they become overheated, which changes the spring rate & they SAG.
If you cut them PROPERLY, like with a cut-off wheel & keep the heat introduced to them to a minimum, cutting is PERFECTLY safe. Or are Chip Foose/Boyd Coddington type professionals etc. wrong?
I've cut springs & raced autocross on them, with zero negative side effects. Cutting was around WAY before making custom height springs was.
If some idiot tries to cut them with a simple torch, they become overheated, which changes the spring rate & they SAG.
If you cut them PROPERLY, like with a cut-off wheel & keep the heat introduced to them to a minimum, cutting is PERFECTLY safe. Or are Chip Foose/Boyd Coddington type professionals etc. wrong?
I've cut springs & raced autocross on them, with zero negative side effects. Cutting was around WAY before making custom height springs was.
Its all in HOW you cut them.
I would have to bring it to a shop to get it done professionally... How much should I cut? And do only the rear springs need to be cut? This is so stupid it says a stock IROC replacement! Why would it say that if it wasn't?
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
Lots of things are said about car parts that aren't true. You can do it yourself if you have a cut-off wheel. I would think a band saw would work too. Just be carefull not to heat them too much.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
Lots of things are said about car parts that aren't true. You can do it yourself if you have a cut-off wheel. I would think a band saw would work too. Just be carefull not to heat them too much.
Okay cool.. do you know how much exactly would have to be cut to get it at stock height? Or maybe if I took out the old ones and compared them to the new ones?
I cut about 1/2 coil and it dropped the car next to nothing. I may do 3/4 and see what happens.
JamesC
Hmm... Maybe cutting a full coil would be the best option? Also, did you cut anything in fronts or are the front MOOG iroc replacement springs good for stock height?
You'll want to cut too little instead of too much. You can always take more off, but you can't add it back. I'd start with 1/2-3/4 and then work from there. These springs are really easy to take in and out.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
Hmm... Maybe cutting a full coil would be the best option? Also, did you cut anything in fronts or are the front MOOG iroc replacement springs good for stock height?
The fronts are a bit lower than stock height.
The rears, BTW, since they're longer (IIRC), don't simply drop in and out like the OE's. They're tough to manipulate in and out.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Nietzsche
The rears, BTW, since they're longer (IIRC), don't simply drop in and out like the OE's. There tough to manipulate in and out.
JamesC
The fronts being a bit lower is not a problem I don't think because I have done alot of weight reduction under the hood (and the fiberglass hood as well) so it will probably sit a bit higher therefor being almost equal to stock.
As for the rears I saw another IROC on the net with 3/4 of a coil cut with these springs and it looks like the car sits 100% level (height looks good too, not too low but not too high either). I think 3/4 is the magic # to cut for these springs. I will start with 3/4 and work from there and let you guys know, although I won't be doing it myself I will instruct the shop guy to cut 3/4 of a coil off.
Taking my car to the garage hopefully this weekend to get done so we'll see what happens!
Thanks guys for all the input it's very much appreciated!
ok so these aren't the moog ones. Either way i'm gonna get them installed and go from there.. if the rears are too high i'll get em out again and cut em little by little till they're even with the fronts.
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
Just an FYI: I finished cutting approx. 3/4 of a coil, and while the cut did drop the car a bit, it still sits a bit higher than stock (if stock is 27 1/2")--and that's with a radiator hose insulator.
JamesC
i bought new spring insulators front and back and the new moog springs... I'm guessing my ride will be really high now.. the only way to tell is to install them! Someone said earlier that the rear springs aren't hard to remove/install anyway.
Someone said earlier that the rear springs aren't hard to remove/install anyway.
The OE's are a snap, but the Moogs gave me fits even with cutting a 1/2 coil and using radiator hose as an insulator--the 3/4 cut fell in pretty much like stock. IIRC, the Moogs with the stock insulator put the car well of 28".
EDIT: BTW, members report that the new insulator from GM is actually a fourthgen piece and will jack the car even higher.
EDIT: Eventually I might cut a full coil. I'm "guessing" that will get me where I want to go--though the current set-up provides a slight rake that I kinda like.
EDIT: Humm, maybe not. I just went out for a ride. Liked it.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Nietzsche
EDIT: BTW, members report that the new insulator from GM is actually a fourthgen piece and will jack the car even higher.
JamesC
You are correct sir. The part # for 3rd gen isolators has been superseded to the same part # as 4th gen isolators. And they are a good bit thicker. Ask me how I know.
You are correct sir. The part # for 3rd gen isolators has been superseded to the same part # as 4th gen isolators. And they are a good bit thicker. Ask me how I know.
I didn't get mine from GM I got them from Ebay off of GMCLASSICPARTS.
There's a link to the rears, and i also got the front insulators off of them too.
Those are the 4th gen isolators
And you got ripped off too. GMCLASSICPARTS and I had it out. They used to advertise those as NOS for 3rd gens. So I ordered them, when they arrived, they were just the 4th gen ones, even more expensive then buying them at the dealership. I had to file a dispute with Paypal, and eventually did get my money back.
And you got ripped off too. GMCLASSICPARTS and I had it out. They used to advertise those as NOS for 3rd gens. So I ordered them, when they arrived, they were just the 4th gen ones, even more expensive then buying them at the dealership. I had to file a dispute with Paypal, and eventually did get my money back.
Ahh man... So I guess I should not use these then?? Do you think my isolators are worn out in my car after 22 years? And is there a place I can get 3rd gen stock isolators from on the net? What a load of crap though..
Ahh man... So I guess I should not use these then?? Do you think my isolators are worn out in my car after 22 years? And is there a place I can get 3rd gen stock isolators from on the net? What a load of crap though
If you're worried about jacking the rear up, don't use them. The isolators in my 85 are fine. My guess is you'll be using radiator hose anyway.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Nietzsche
Ahh man... So I guess I should not use these then?? Do you think my isolators are worn out in my car after 22 years? And is there a place I can get 3rd gen stock isolators from on the net? What a load of crap though..
I thought mine would be bad too. That's why I ordered replacements. Ended up keeping the stockers, they were fine.
I also tried the heater hose, but the rear sat too low. But to be honest, it was trial and error, what ended up working best for me, was the stockers.
Hmm okay I think i'll keep the rear stock isolators in place. I think I will replace the fronts tho, probably worn out they look like thin peice of rubber anyway.
Thanks guys I'll try to keep the car at equal heights and i'll let you guys know what combo i did to get it (how many coils cut, using which isolators, etc.). I think alot of people would like to know a definite answer on this one.
__________________ "An engine is like an orchestra. It's made up of wind, brass, percussion, and a whole range of other complimentary sections, all working to make that beautiful music that we call 'performance'..."
271FWHP - 354FWTQ --> (UN-TUNED... Tuning in progress! Will DYNO again soon...)
For mods go here --> http://1986irocz.tripod.com/
14.2 @ 96 on the 1/4 mile...
I don't have any of the isolators in my car, but it's so clanky it doesn't matter haha. I like the height of the front compared to the rear with them out (on the back) but I need them to run my stock 16s cause they stick out further.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
checked your bio page hellz_wings. Lotsa of good mods. The right things being done.
I would recommend keeping stock suspension geometry until you have the car dialed in with the work you have done to-date.
my .02 cents worth -- go directly to the T5/T56 swap and the big brake upgrade. Did both myself they are not that difficult and do more to change the nature of the car than any other combination of mods that I have done before.
I'll try to keep the car at equal heights and i'll let you guys know what combo i did to get it (how many coils cut, using which isolators, etc.). I think alot of people would like to know a definite answer on this one.
I "believe" that 27 1/2" is stock ride height. That said, here's the final for me:
Moog 5662 fronts with new OE isolator puts the car at 26 3/4.
Moog 5665 rears with radiator hose and approx. 3/4 of a coil cut puts the car at 27 1/4.
EDIT: After a few days of driving, the rear has settled at 27 (Much to my surprise).
The combo provides a slight rake, but I'm content at the moment.
JamesC
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Nietzsche
mo
I'm guessing my ride will be really high now.. the only way to tell is to install them! Someone said earlier that the rear springs aren't hard to remove/install anyway. 
