gregsz-28

Quote: Originally Posted by 572_Rat Weaz, I hope this helps you, I have an 86 Iroc, I used a Racecraft K-member, A-arms, dropped spindles shorten for rack, bump steer kit, unisteer rack and pinion, Moog 5662 springs in front. PA racing steering shaft kit. I used a 28" tall Mickey Thompson up front. Car handles great, I have no less steering radius than I did factory, and have had zero problems with bottoming out or my lower spoiler hitting anything. I also used Koni yellows, Spohn sway bar and adjustable wonder bar, J and M stut mounts and Edlebrock 3 point strut brace. In fact I can guarantee that the car handles better now than it ever did factory, and I love the look of the stance of the car. The car goes around corners with no body roll. My car is 100% street car, it is not a daily driver but very enjoyable to drive http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/su...ml#post4312038 (Back halfing my 86 IROC)

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weaz4200

Okay so heres a few questions... As far as the K-member... They have the 4130 and the mild steel... At what power range do i want to use the 4130 v.s. the mild steel??? Cause im lookin to do around 500HP... Now, i noticed while lookin at the racecraft site they have these 2, http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=259 and http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=524 .... The first has the option for spring perches and rack mounts... So one.. Does that mean that the 2nd one does come with/have rack mounts???? N the other question is, what are spring perches?? .... In one thread a guy said... So based on that statement am i to understand that if i dont go with spring perches i can only run a coil over setup??? If that is the case..then the 2nd K-member for $400 will only work with a coil over since it doesnt have that option??? Maybe someone can clear that up for me... Those A-arms were from Racecraft??? 572_Rat... It looks like your runnin a spring in stock location.... i could be wrong... But on Racecrafts site i didnt see a-arms that utilize a stock spring location.... Maybe u could clear that up as well.... Thanks for the help so far guys.... Also.. Not sure if i mentioned this... but i wanna run stock spring setup up, not coil over... So as of right now i got some dough and im lookin at just gettin the K-member and the A-arms (with all mounting hardware)... I got all the old nuts and bolts, but i likes new... So what brand do you recommend i go with, and are brands interchangeable??? Like can I go with a Spohn k-member n Racecraft a-arms n vice versa???? I got about a G to spend.... So gimme some input please... Thanks.. Later.

572_Rat

I chose the Racecraft due to price and quality, other k-members are just as good or maybe better, but price was the best with them. They A-arms and K-Members come with or without spring perches, I chose spring perches, because I am not a fan of coil overs on these cars, just personal preference.
To see if they will interchange I would contact the manufactors, I know if I was doing this again I would still have used there K-Member ( Road Race Version) I would just hope you would not have to go through all the screw ups I had with them, but I would use Spohn A-arms, I think Spohns A-arms are a better piece. I spend more than a grand, I think my bill with Racecraft was about 2200.00 but that also included 4 piston brakes up front, and a couple hundred more with Spohn. With the J&M strut mounts, and all new bolt hardware ( if you are going to spend the money on these parts, please put in new bolt hardware ) it was about 2700.00

weaz4200

I wouldnt have it any other way....Does the racecraft one come with all the hardware??? Cause i still got all the bolts...But i wont reuse any of them... PLus i dont remember where all of them are..LOL. So i guess the only questions i have are.... 1... Do i really need it to be chromemoly???
2... Whats the road race version???
Are the 2 k-members i posted links to fine???
and 3... As far as their options... Do i want their motor mounts??? (doin a 383) and 4th gen rack or pinto (depending on which one...elaborate)??? Also where's the best place i could get a deal, not cheap quality but somewhat easy one the ole wallet?? U also said u got a unisteer rack and pinion.... Since they dont have one specific for the 82-92 camaro... Can i use any of them... Or am i limited to a 4th gen or pinto???

Also got a question bout the Spohn a-arms... but ill ask that in a bit... dont wanna throw too many ?'s out there...

RED_DRAGON_85

the one specific to the camaro IS a pinto rack...

road race version is stronger and more braced, but weighs more. road race is as opposed to drag race version, where weight is a premium concern

integrated motor mounts are a great option if you get a k-member with integrated mounts.
if not, you can put motor mounts on any k-member
the integrated mounts are simply welded in for extra strength and stiffness

hope this helps

__________________

572_Rat

1) No I don't think you need chrome moly, I chose to use it because it is stronger and lighter, for a street car mild steel would be fine
2) Road race version just has extra bracing, to make it stronger for cornering
3)You want mounts ( these are frame mounts, not the ones that bolt onto the motor) unless you are using motor plates. For rack mounts you need to decide if you are going with the pinto rack or 4th gen. The unisteer rack they used is shorten for the 3rd gen Camaro

weaz4200

When i was looking at the k-members it doesn't say which one it is... So then the pinto would be manual and the 4th gen a power rack??? Say i want to use a 4th gen rack, i dont see one on the Unisteer site... So how do i figure out which one to use??? Also as far as a power rack goes, hows that set up??? Its basically a rack with the lines goin from the PS pump to the rack like this???? Do u need custom lines or something?

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

gregsz-28

Correct.


HP isn't relevent to chosing k-members. The only real anvantage to CM is that it is stronger, and since it is stronger thinner material is used, so the CM k-member will weigh less. You don't really gain much strength with CM.

Unless you buy a kit, you will probably need custom lines, but they are easy enough to make.

572_Rat

I have not been on Racecraft website for a long time but they used to show pictures of their road race version, in fact it was mine. For a 4th gen rack go to a salvage yard or auto store and get a rebuilt unit or buy one new. I don't know if unisteer or flaming river sell OEM parts.
Yes, PS pump lines go to the rack

weaz4200

I see... So if thats the case then droppin $250 extra on a Spohn k-member just to get it in CM is not really worth it... I think im gonna learn more from u guys than i will at school... Some of u guys should be teachin my classes, instead of the instructors i got. I hope to be as knowledgeable one day.... So this is my last question for tonight, then im out... 572_Rat... So either i get a pinto rack mount or a 4th mount??? But i recall u sayin u got the racecraft k-member and a unisteer rack... So what mount did u get when u ordered ur k-member??? Thanks.

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

572_Rat

The unisteer is a pinto manual rack

weaz4200

Cool... I guess ill look at maybe a 4th gen rack then.... Later

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

weaz4200

So i ended up orderin the Spohn a-arms and the Racecraft k-member... Had to call them and tell them what i wanted. Im surprised that on their site they dont have the options listed like with the 4130 they show... Plus from what i understood after talking to one of the guys, he said that the MS one is advertised for the coil over setup. I find that odd, cause the third gens usually didn't come with a coil over setup. Or did they have that option? Anyways, hopefully i wont have any problems with them like 572_RAT stated he had (whatever that may have been). Should be gettin the parts next week and on the car by next weekend... Hopefully. Thanks for all the info guys.

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

weaz4200

Im excited, got my a-arms... Thank you Spohn, very quickly processed and shipped instantly, nice... Now i wait for Racecraft, im assuming the have to make my k-member as they didnt have the a stock coil setup ready,which i still find odd.... But when i called the guys said it got held up in powdercoat n tomorrow it should be here.... Or so he says. Now maybe Spohn can make a spindle with stock spindle height n shortened steering knuckles, they got a few drop spindles but not for the 3rd gens.

weaz4200

As usual, got both the a-arms and the k-member and they dont match up.. So what to do now, and whos fault is it. The rear bushings on the a-arms and the mount for them on the k-member are good. The issue is the front. The bushings on the front measure 3.023" and the mount spot on the k-member is 2.903 (2.900, somwhere around there) So now i dont know if the bushings are too big or the k-member mount is too small. What do u guys think? Anyone know what the front bushings/k-member should measure?

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

//<86TA>\\

are the bushing in the a-arms all the way together? they are 2 pcs and may not be totally seated. I would call racecraft and ask if their k-member is supposed to work with stock a-arms. If they say yes, they messed up. I would like the think Spohn know how to make a-arms by now.

__________________
"with a big enough hammer, anything is possible"
"The one who dies with the most tools wins!"

weaz4200

Yup, but even if they weren't, it couldnt be .100" off, thats a lot. In fact, I just went out and measured the stock ones i had on the camaro and they measured close to what Spohns are, Spohns are 3.023" and the stock ones are 2.992 (probably from wear and tear). So what should i say to racecraft? That i want them to make me a new one and that since they f-ed up they should reinburse me some how, because i gotta send it back (extra shipping) and its wasting my time since i could be installing it? I was hopin this wouldnt be the case, but like 572_RAT said (about racecraft) So i guess that makes 2 of us.

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

gregsz-28

I would take the bushings and sleeves out of the A-arms and just trim them a little bit. Take it to a machine shop and have them cut them down a little. Shouldn't take more than a couple $ or minutes.
Or, take the opposite approach, and take a piece of threaded rod and stick it in the A-arm mount, and with a pair of nuts on the threaded rod, turn them in opposite directions to spread the A-arm mount apart enough to get the A-arm in. I know this works on stock K-members, but I don't know if it is safe to do on yours, might damage welds and the powdercoat.

I would go with option #1, or call up racecraft.

weaz4200

That could be done... The messed up thing is that they make a mistake and i gotta pay... What does that say about them. I even asked them if other a-arms will work, they said yea. Not sayin they did that on purpose but say i didnt get aftermarket a-arms, the stock ones wouldn't work either.. Way too small a measurement. Sorry, i know my b***chin doesnt belong here, but im just peeved. Plus others may want stuff from them, so i figured id post my experience.

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

gregsz-28

If you are more concerned about time, you could use a band saw to trim the bushings, or really any method of cutting them, but if you don't leave a clean enough finish they might squeek.
I would take the sleeve out of the bushing, and measure that by itself, see if it alone will fit in the new k-member.
Really, it is Racecrafts fault. If your stock A-arms don't fit, (I would actually try to install them to be sure) they are obligated to make it right. You shouldn't even have to pay any shipping.

articwhiteZ

was about to make a order with racecraft for a K member. and get spohns coil over set up..and A arms...LOL

so whats the deal..

when i talked to Spohn this week. i got a code for $65 off my order

so if i pay them for
the K member..coil over set up.. and A arms + shipping it was $1389
buying from 2 diff places even with lower cost parts it was still $1391

so it looks like it's all Spohn parts for me..

thanks for the Heads Up Guys
I Love Visa...

Vetruck

First off, I would not cut or trim the a-arm bushing at all!

A-arms are tight to fit with new bushings, especially urethane. However, you did measure the ears of the kmember and the bushings on botht he new and old A-arms so you have confirmed Racecraft is a fault. Simply call them and tell them to send you a "call tag" for shipping. Tell them exactly what you did and how you know its them. You have checked measurements on both arms and niether old nor new will fit but will fit your existing kmember.

I just don't get it, how can a manufacturer make a mistake like this unless they are altering one jig for multiple uses. They should have a fixed jig to bolt the parts to and then weld everything together. No reason for this type of error.

Vetruck

I will also add that trimming the bushing potentially cause many problems.

1) not the correct factory bushing size. So future replacement will always be an issue.

2) if not done correctly, there will be metal on metal contact unless the bushing is pressed out and the mount housing milled smaller on the correct end (to which the next question lies...which is the correct end). Then one side of the inner uretahne needs to be milled shorter and the center metal sleeve milled shorter. Finally it needs to be re press fitted into the A-arm.

3) if not done in the manner I describe, then metal on metal contact will be made and the movement of the two pieces together can be later catastrophic.

4) most likely the problem originates with the Kmember mount ear is positioned not only shorter in width but wrong in articulation geometry to the other ear tab once the bushing is trimmed.

Again, don't cut the bushing. You will THEN have TWO problems with both a tappered useless Spohn A-arm and along with the faulty Racecraft kmember.

weaz4200

Yeah. I didn't plan on any cutting. N i did talk to them... I still find it funny that they asked why i went with Spohns a-arms and suggested i get theirs but keep the k-member the way it is cause they would rather not have to make another one... Thats what i was told. Plus i started to think, if i did that, then if i ever needed new bushings id have to get them specially made under tolerance... N i wont do that... So today i spoke with one of the guys... He said he'd take care of it. I gotta weigh the a-arms, send it to them (they cover cost/shipping) with the k-member and they make me a new one and use my Spohn arms to make sure theres not another mixup... I still find it stupid that i have to send them the a-arms for them to match it up... I got a simple answer for them.... Make a new one with the rear measurements they initially had, but make sure the fronts measure 3.000" so the 3.023" oversized Spohn bushing will work.... Sounds simple to me.

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

Vetruck

Its a tough call. I would just send the thing back and get my money back. These guys can't make things to factory specs without "your parts"...give me a break.

ps- Spohns bushings are NOT oversized. they are simple new bushings and urethane gives slightly when you force them into the kmmber. It you measure just the center steel insert sleeve, I promise you that is not over 3.000.

0.023 is nothing, you can practically squeeze that with your hand out of 3" wide urethane. You want them snug but greased.

As I stated before, I would never replace a factory kmember on a car for something lighter weight unless it was a full time drag car. If its used on the street at all? no way. I choose the beefy stock unit. Just my opinion on safety when it pertains to road debris. I have hit many hard objects on the road at high speed. One lighter blow was a damn retread that wiped out my front splitter a few months back on my truck I was changing lanes and there it was blinded behind the car up in front of me. Everything under there took a blow when that lexan splitter came off and shattered- there went almost $500. It bent a few lighter weight metal pieces under there. I would hate for something to hit one of these flimsy little round tube kmembers, it would bend like no tomorrow.

People need to look at factory kmembers on any car as part of what they are designed so big and bulky for. They double as SKID PLATES!

weaz4200

So now i got a dilema, got a message from spohn and they dont have a k-member for power rack, plus, and i quote from them... So i should return the racecraft k-member and get one from Spohn with manual rack mounts or get a new one from racecraft and go with it.... Why would Spohn say the 4th gen rack is not a good choice?

gregsz-28

The 4th gen rack might be a bad choice because of how it mounts or possibly its range of motion. Ask Spohn.

I'd give racecraft a chance to make things right, but if they screw up again or if it will cost you any additional money, go with another brand.

weaz4200

When i get a chance i will, they also said this... Yea, ill probably do that. Still think its dumb that they need my Spohn a-arms to match it up, but oh well.. S**t happens, everyone deserves a second chance....

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

572_Rat

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/su...racecraft.html (Racecraft)



I hope you have better luck than I did about them fixing your problem, I gave the link to the challenges that I had. One thing after it is done you will have a good piece, they really do make a good product, it is the screw ups that piss you off. Don't expect to get compensated for your time.

BTW Spike how did your racecraft air bag setup work for you

weaz4200

So i ended up with the Spohn k-member instead, but now im curious if any of you guys have the Spohn piece as well? The reason i ask is because i was curious about the fitment. All the bolts line up and it seems like everything is good except that the mounts that hold the coil spring are in different places when comparing sides. Theres the flat part on the frame which then tappers down... I may not be explaining this right so here a 2 pics... The first is the drivers side, the other passenger....





As you can see, the drivers side sits flush againt the frame all the way up to where it starts to angle down. Now comparing that the the passenger side which you can see that theres like a half inch or so between the k-member and the part that angles down (both sides marked in red)... I called Spohn and the guy told me that its normal, thats how they are... So i wanted to hear what you guys think or if anyone else has noticed this with theirs? I would think that theres nothing wrong with my car, no accidents on the carfax. Plus everything went in like a glove. Thanks.

//<86TA>\\

i dont know how symmetrical the factory k-member is. It may be off just like your spohn piece for whatever reason.

what i would do is measure center to center the spring perches in the factory k-member and compared to the spohn piece.

__________________
"with a big enough hammer, anything is possible"
"The one who dies with the most tools wins!"

weaz4200

It seems pretty close, measured it from close to center of each side of the stock k-member. I would just hate to have all my parts in a few months or so down the road and find that it might be an problem if it is in fact off by a little... Are there any other measurements I could take? Like from the k-member to certain parts of the body? I was thinking of somehow measuring from the a-arms to like the center hole of the strut towers where the caster/camber plates go but im thinking my car would have to be sitting level maybe....Or am i just gonna have to wait and see once i get and install more parts?

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

//<86TA>\\

if the upper spring perch is off just a hair, it wont be an issue. More than a half inch, could be a problem

articwhiteZ

after shoping for all the front end parts for My 92 Z28 im going to Buy every thing from PA RACING $850 SHIPPED all Bolt in.
http://www.paracing.com/catalog/prod...products_id=82

//<86TA>\\

how many sets of things are you goiung to buy, jeebus, wish i had that kind of money

__________________
"with a big enough hammer, anything is possible"
"The one who dies with the most tools wins!"

572_Rat

Just to let you know, all PA racing K members and a-arms were originally made by Racecraft and resold under PA Racing name, I don't know if that is still the same, there was a post on here sometime ago, Mark had stated that they did all PA racing K-Members

weaz4200

Can you guys post a few links of threads that I could read, as so I could find out and understand how to choose the following parts.... Spring Length/rate, Shocks/struts (rates), Caster/camber plates (what a 1" raised would do), Bumpsteer... I need to be pointed at the right direction for a starting point. As this is my first build i dont know much, hence id appreciate if someone could tell me what I should look at first. So maybe in order to understand suspension, id have to know a arm geometry or how shocks/struts/springs work under different applications... Get what im sayin?

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

weaz4200

I think im making this more complicated with too many questions at once... So i'll ask about 1 thing at a time.. The first is.... The Camaro has struts up front and shocks in back, but say hawks third gen. They have a front Camaro/Firebird 93-02 front shockwhich looks like the rear that my camaro had, but the fronts are called struts... I dont get it other than design, whats differentiates it from being called a shock v.s. a strut? The other thing is coil springs... Both these have to be matched up, so ive been told... Umtimate question is how do i got about choosing the right shocks/struts and springs to order? How do i figure out what the valving needs to be or what spring rates i need?

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

articwhiteZ

FOR THE $800 PRICE and getting all 3 parts..and all made to work together..thats the Big thing..
no hacking of parts to try to get them to work..
did not see anything from Racecraft in a front end Kit for the 82/92 Camaro
listed. PA is $799 for there Kit.

Just want the parts to.. work with ea other.. bolt in..and run..
spring rate is worked out after you have it all together.

Vetruck

Its caled trial and error. Every car is different. I went through 3 diffemt coil sets on the front of my car til I had the result I wanted.

AM91Camaro_RS

as far as shock vs strut. a strut supports the upper part of the spindle. a shock will not take that load/not setup to bolt up the same. 93-02 Camaro/Birds use lower and upper a-arms; that is why they have shocks on the front. being that our cars don't have upper a-arms, we have struts.

__________________
highly modded 3.1.....

best 1/8 mile time...9.51@74 mph
2.04 60' on street tires

best 1/4 14.97@89.95mph

weaz4200

That i understand, but where do i start, thats what im askin. I mean you have to have a starting number as far as springs go. As well as a starting point for choosing the correct shock/strut valving to match up with the rates of the spring. It seems that Vetruck wont be helping me anymore so this is directed for anyone else that wants to help... So im looking at the Koni Sport Yellow adjustable rear shocks/ front struts as well as the Caster Camber Plates (J&M)... Both from Hotpart... A drop spindle from either RACECRAFT or AJE. So with the spindle id use a stock height spring up front and a 2" drop srping in back... Does that sound about right? Since AJE's spindle is a 1.8" do i need to get a spring with the same amount drop in the rear? Do they even have springs with that measurement drop? The last is sway bars dont, even know where to start... So what do guys think? I need shocks/struts, springs, and sway bars for now. Any input?

__________________
if it aint broke..then break it and fix it...how else you gonna learn.

AM91Camaro_RS

If you read through the threads "ultimate suspension" (which happen to be written by vetruck) you will find some suggestions on springs and shocks/struts, and sway bars. Sounds like you've got a decent idea of where to start with the list of parts. As for rear springs and x amount of drop, you can always trim them down if they're too long.

__________________
highly modded 3.1.....

best 1/8 mile time...9.51@74 mph
2.04 60' on street tires

best 1/4 14.97@89.95mph