Thomas Stahel

iTrader: (1)

I've already started a thread more concerning spring heights. I'm changing my fuel pump and as I do so, I'd like to replace my worn-out suspension parts in the rear at the same time.

I do 100% street drive, I just want my LCAs and other suspension parts to not squeak anymore and my rear to not jump off the road in cornering and have everything in a non-worn-out condition for a bit better handling. I like a smooth ride, no tuning, no extra stiffening. The only thing I'd probably like to do is change the springs to lowering springs just for optical reasons. I'd buy the Vogtland springs by Founders Performance.

Now, there are so many different LCAs and panhard bars by Founders Performance (adjustables, non-adjustables, poly, rod, swivel, 3 piece ...). My head is aching because I've already read through many threads in here and I came across things like "binding" with poly parts, noises and so on. I'm completely confused what I should buy. Founders told me they even don't recommend adjustable LCAs when lowering the car. Only panhard bar. But which one? And which non-adjustable LCAs? Please can someone help me. Only thing to do is exchange my worn-out parts. I'm not a mechanic, I have no experience in suspension parts / geometry etc. I have no idea what it means if I bought an adjustable panhard bar/rod and/or LCAs concerning the difficulty and knowledge necessary to correctly install and adjust them. Also I don't know about the different models (poly/rod, 3 piece, swivel)... are some of them more difficult to install? How do I adjust them? For I have never seen these different models I have no idea whether some are more difficult to install etc.

And actually I'd like best to have all parts greasable through zirk fittings.

So please could anyone help me and suggest the most smooth, safe and easiest-to-install parts? Always at the back of your mind that I'll start off with stock springs and maybe want to switch to the Vogtland ones just for optical reasons.

Thanks a lot,
Thomas

plum92_camaro

Have you read the stickies at the top of this section? I think a lot of your questions will be answered in there.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Get a manual and study how to replace the worn parts. Also, jack up the back of the car and get under and look at how all the parts work together and what they're all called and what they do. Then you'll understand the change lowering makes and why you'd want to adjust the length of the panhard bar. If you just drive street then get stock replacement parts which is cheaper. As for binding, when you're under the car look at how the parts move and how the stiff rubber bushes don't let the parts move like a bearing would. All spherical bearings instead of rubber allow everything to move freely (not bind) but you usually get more noise and vibration. And of course they cost a lot more.

Thomas Stahel

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I've read the stickies. And I did it again today. They are kind of a help, yes. But I'm still unsure about the different styles of LCAs and panhard bars.

I understand that adjustable LCAs aren't necessary. So I will stay with the non-adjustables. But @Base91... about the poly bushings (so, non-rubber ones) you can read everywhere that in hard cornering they will bind. And therefore you should use the special designed ones like 3 Piece Poly Joint or Poly/Swivel-Joint Combination. (Founders Performance)

But what's the real difference between those? I'd guess that the 3 pieces ones are "better" because you can exchange these parts separately when worn. But the others are higher priced so should be even better and they have zirk fittings. So would it be okay to buy the Poly/Swivel-Joint ones? I mean they are less than 50 dollars more than the completely poly ones. I could afford them. Any disadvantages?

Same problem of choice is with the panhard bar. I guess if there is no difficutly in installing an adjustable one, I will buy one of these if I ever wanted to lower the car. Otherwise I would pay twice. But which of all these different styles is the best for me? They are all between 70 and 90 dollars, so I really don't care about the money. So can anyone please just recommend me one from here: http://www.foundersperformance.com/c.../Panhard-Rods/

I saw that they have e panhard rod relocation kit. It's just, my old bracket looks ... well... OLD ;-) and I thought for the better looks, why not use the relocation kit. But then, does this item really have an impact on driving? I'm unsure about my old stuff from '88. Might be broken or making noises...

Thanks a lot
Thomas

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I condensed your post (took words out, did not add). I would suggest that you replace your worn-out bushings with factory rubber bushing kit. Unbolt the parts, take to someone who can press the new bushings into the parts, and bolt back on to your car.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

My decision to get founders LCAs was not necessarily based on performance, but strength, cost, and ease of replacement. By the time you buy the 6 bushings, pay someone to press them out and back in, probably having to box in the old arms so they don't crush in the process, it was a no brainer. The stock parts are flimsy to start with, and with 22- 32 years of rusting they have gotten no stronger. A little over $100 shipped and I was done in about an hour installing them. I have no plans on lowering my car so I got the 3 piece poly non adjustable set. Fit was great, no binding or squeaking.

Thomas Stahel

iTrader: (1)

Hi

I'm actually thinking around these things. Having new rubber bushings or buy a more "high-end" type of LCAs like the Founders Poly Swivel-Joint ones (which are greasable in contrast to the 3-piece Poly ones) or then go with the Global West TBC-14 ones, is what I'm pondering at the moment. Actually I'd rather not use the old LCAs any longer because - as you stated - 25 years of use is a long time.

So any opinions on the Swivel-Joints and the Global West ones with one side rubber-bushings?

And then for the panhard part I still haven't decided yet. There are more options and less differences between poly and non-poly ends. So there are single-adjustable and on car-adjustable ones. And then there's another one... On-Car Adjustable Panhard Bar with Poly Bushings vs
On Car Adjustable Panhard Rod Kit Poly/Poly Bushings. What's the difference? And what is different with the "Forged Chrome-Moly" one? I think, on-car adjustables are better. I'd go for one of the ones I mentioned before. But which one is best? The "Forged Chome-Moly" is the cheapest...

Thanks
Thomas

plum92_camaro

Personally I would go with the rubber/spherical LCAs from Global West. The rubber on the body end will be good for daily driving and perform as well or better than when the car was new. The spherical bearing is also a great performance piece. Normally you wouldn't use a spherical bearing on a daily driver, but this combination will work well.
There is only one scenario where i would use poly, a street driven, daily driver looking for a little bump in performance and they MUST be kept well greased or they will squeak.

The difference in the two pan hard bars is where the adjustment is. I'd get the later of the two you mentioned with the adjustments at the ends. Either way, they have grease fittings so you can keep the poly from squeaking. They say the difference between the chrome-oly and regular steel is steel will bend, chrome-oly will break. I'd get the regular steel one for a street car.

Have you looked at UMI performance? check out their roto-joints. these are what i plan to use since i daily drive and race my camaro.
http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...=index&cPath=6
Or J&M products/Hotpart.com?
http://www.hotpart.com/1982-2002-f-b...ball-bushings/

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

I am literally finishing up this install upgrade with Founders Performance parts currently. I personally went with the adjustable control arms, panhard bar, panhard relocation bar, lower control arm relocation brackets and their torque arm. I plan on installing the Vogtland springs once they are available again. I choose the components that have the greaseable poly bushings... Great Choice!

Having the adjustable components will let the rear axle be positioned to be in proper orientation in relation to the vehicle. The quality of the parts is Great!

Thomas Stahel

iTrader: (1)

Hi again

Well, with the Global West LCAs... I can't see any zirk fittings. I guess the rubber bushings don't need any grease. But what about the other side... the spherical bearing? I like the thought of being able to grease the parts. And the Global West LCAs are about 100 dollars more expensive than the most expensive Founders Poly/Swivel LCAs. So what about these?

For the panhard bar... as a daily driver only I read many things. I could either use only poly/poly (don't guess that there are any adjustable aftermarkets with rubber bushings?) or poly/rod. Some say that with the panhard bar you won't have a binding issues even with poly on both ends other say that binding still can be an issue. As a non-expert and non-race driver I can't imagine how a difference feels between poly/poly and poly/rod panhard bars...

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

The UMI one-end adj with poly/poly is a good buy. Once you set it, no reason to be constantly messing with it. As you stated, you could probably get away with poly/poly on the PHB. Later on, you could always take the poly shank out (adj axle side) and replace w/Del-A-Lum or similar type joints when money allows OR when you don't like it. You'll always have a spare should you need to repair the joint.

Just for example: http://www.spohn.net/shop/Del-Sphere...d-Threads.html

Thomas Stahel

iTrader: (1)

That's an interesting thought about replacing the poly with an other bushing, didn't know that you can do this.

As I live in Switzerland I'd like to buy the parts - if possible - all from the same manufacturer. For the moment Founders Performance seems the cheapest one and they also have the strut mounts at a very good price. So if I buy the panhard bar from Founders (you mentioned UMI), is it possible with any poly/poly panhard bar to exchange the bushings?

Oh, as I was thinking about and looking at the panhard bars... I understand why I can change the ends... so easy to see ;-) But wouldn't it still be better to buy these "http://www.foundersperformance.com/products/On-Car-Adjustable-Panhard-Rod-Kit-Poly%7B47%7DPoly-Bushings.html" ?

Because here I can even change both sides if ever the poly bushings get worn.

And while we're at it... are there also screwable ends with rubber bushings?

plum92_camaro

Thomas, you are over thinking this. You can buy whatever parts you want but the way GM designed it is good enough for a 100% street driven car. Even if you drop the car 1", nothing else is REQUIRED to be changed. A daily driven street car is not going to have the issues of poly binding. I prefer rubber (Moog) on a street car. Poly is fine if you keep it greased so it doesn't squeak. Rod ends are only ok on the axle end if accompanied by rubber or poly end on the body side.

No the rubber doesn't have grease fittings. Your stock suspension is rubber and it doesn't have grease fittings either. Keep in mind how long rubber has lasted you. I bet 22-32 years.

Founders strut mounts are really good.


Why would you spend all that time and money to not use performance springs? Aren't vogtland springs progressive/variable rates all the way around? Linear/constant rate springs are what you want for high performance handling.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Haven't purchased springs yet. So far I am leaning toward the Vogtland's. You do indeed make a valid point to ponder

Thomas Stahel

iTrader: (1)

@plum92_camaro

Thank you for your thoughts. It's actually the same what I'm thinking. The best thing for me would be rubber/poly or rubber/rod. Well, the rubber didn't really last more than 15 years, I'd say. When I got the car eleven years ago, the handling wasn't the best already. So, whatever I choose, I guess I would have to replace it after about 10-15 years if I want to keep the best performance and handling. But yeah, I've driven a bad-handling car for mor than at least 5 years now, so I really shouldn't care too much about what I'm buying now ;-)

But actually I couldn't find any LCAs or panhard bars with rubber/poly bushings. The only LCAs with rubber/rods are the Global West ones which are over 100 dollars more expensive than the adjustable LCAs by Founders. So what I'm thinking now is to buy the rod/rod adjustables (both sides) and then I'm able to exchange the ends to whatever I want (poly, rubber, roto...). Here I can get the rubber one for example "http://www.howeracing.com/p-7603-rubber-bushing-joint.aspx"

And if a bushing is worn-out, I can keep the LCA and only buy new ends. This sounds very nice to me. Or did I get something wrong in my thinking? Are the different "ends" to the LCAs not compatible with other brand LCA tubes? And now as I've seen a bit through the internet I've read something about the different hole sizes in the ends... is there a difference between the two sides?

Thanks,
Thomas