TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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Yeah, I was curious as too how much horsepower was actually gained out of putting an LT1 Cam in an L05 engine and if it was really worth it. Because i'm tearing down my L05 to rebuild it (it has 160k on it) and if the LT1 cam is all it is made out to be, i might put that in. so please, give me some numbers.
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no, you should get at least 25 HP out of the cam, it is a huge increase over stock and not hot enough to hurt anything, people are using it in their 305s.
ok, a 25h.p. gain in a 305 or a 350? or maybe both? i've heard rumors of 250 gross h.p. with a LT1 cam alone. thats a big increase considering the 350 TBI (9c1) engine i have is rated at 210h.p. stock.
This is encouraging. I've found some Lo5 motors in Caprices, at least I think thats what they are, gotta run some #s, and its fueling my latest crazy idea for a motor.
1. Pull the TBI 350 and computer from the big white boat.
2. Rebuild the 350 longblock
3. Stick an LT1 Cam in it
4. Sitting on top will be an edelbrock TBI intake with fully worked TBI unit, which will be in the car already while the motor is being built.
5. Replace the 305 Injectors with the ones from the 350
6. Replace my car's ECM with the L05 ECM (not just the PROM since I have an 88 which has a werid ECM)
7. Drop the motor in, hook it all up, and hopefully all will go well.
I think I could do this without spending a ton of $$, depends on what they want for a used TBI 350 nowadays. If it hits about 250 HP I think I'd be happy with it. Think it'd run 14's, provided all the other stuff I've got planned is already done?
__________________ Sold!: 1988 Camaro S/C
(Didn't want to post a thread about it, don't wanna get flagged for non-tech)
Presently Driving: 1996 Mustang GT
4.6, 5 Speed, every option but power passener seat.
Don't worry guys, I'll have another 3RDgen someday.
I wouldn't waste your time on putting an L05 in. I found a place out in AZ called Pheonix Cylinder heads, they make a complete crate engine for TBI with 326h.p./383ft lbs of torque and runs on 91 octane and its like $1900. so then, you can get a custom chip burnt (dont know how much $$$" and some big block injectors from a local salvage yard, put in a holley 640CFM TBI unit and you'll easily be in the 13's not 14's. i just stumbled accross this the other day, and i'm gonna wait til winter to do it, so i can have addiquite funds. screw the LT1 cam in L05.
I'm well aware that I could be making a ton more power with other engine combos, but, what I've got in mind fits my goals.
I need easy installation (all accy's bolt up and stuff like that, and as little computer changes as possible) because its my only car and I can't have it down for a month while the motor goes in. And I'm trying to spend under $1500 TOTAL on the whole motor project, start to finish. Preferable less than that. If I can even save that much up by next summer. For the use of the car, 250-300 HP is plenty fine. After a new motor the tranny will gauranteed need gone through with this kinda milage, gotta figure that in too.
But anyway, I'm gonna bail out, I'm not trying to steal the thread its not my topic.
SBC Motors grow on trees, you can buy a freshly rebuilt complete long block 350 for $700 outright if you call the right guys, and its not crap jobs either. One of the nice things about having a lot of circle track guys in the area. For $1500 Camrs89 got a 400 some HP 355 built and installed in his car.
Hopefully I'm not coming across like a prick, I'm just saying what the local market is like thats all.
I just finished installing my cam last night. I went to bed around 4:00 am this morning. I had to work today too, but I think it was well worth it. I had to do a couple of house calls for the company I work for and I got to drive my car around town today. All I have to say is WOW. My car is hitting the 5600 rpm range easy. I cant wait for some heads and an intake. I'm in the process of doing all the ultimate tbi mods too.
Well, $700 may not get you that much HP, thats just a fresh longblock with whatever cam you want, probably not roller though. Stock everything else, or whatever else is around. I dunno if he gives that price to everybody, but still, you can sometimes pick up a 350 for like $2-300 in the local classifieds. Sometimes even running ones. What can I say, when you're town is surrounded by cornfeilds for a couple hundred miles on every side...
i'm not too far from you, i'm in St. Louis everyone thinks their poo is made of gold and wants a rediculous amount of money for it. I dunno tho, i'd seriously like to get the 326h.p. crate engine. at least then i know its never been used and abused and it comes with a warranty.:lala:
Originally posted by wo0drow ... I found a place out in AZ called Pheonix Cylinder heads, they make a complete crate engine for TBI with 326h.p./383ft lbs of torque and runs on 91 octane and its like $1900. so then, you can get a custom chip burnt (dont know how much $$$" and some big block injectors from a local salvage yard, put in a holley 640CFM TBI unit and you'll easily be in the 13's not 14's. i just stumbled accross this the other day, and i'm gonna wait til winter to do it, so i can have addiquite funds. screw the LT1 cam in L05.
A new GM Goodwrench engine, with an F- or Y-car version LT1 or LT4 (production) cam, and Vortec heads will make 330 hp and 380 ftlbs on an engine dyno. I think GM even sells this engine, and calls it the 350 HO (high output). The caveat to this is that you'll only make that amount of torque and power IF you have a fuel system (carb or fuel injection) that can supply the right amount of fuel, AND if you have an exhaust system that will flow enough. In your post you mentioned custom chip (which will be around $350, and it won't be optimized for your engine/vehicle) and the larger TBI unit... so that means right away that you won't get to the power levels specified by either your place in AZ or the GM engine. Unless you spend the time to tune the engine properly.
So be advised that if you spend $1900 (or more) for anyone's crate motor, it won't reach the levels specified unless the fuel system, the exhaust system, and to a lesser degree the ignition system, are properly tuned. In other words you might spend over $2k and be dissappointed in the results especially in a heavy car like a Caprice.
Also keep in mind that the LT1 cam can be had for $25 to $50. A 94-96 stock Caprice/Impala N10 (takeoff) dual stainless exhaust from an LT1 car can often be found for similar money, and it can be made to fit into your 91-93 model. Those two items, plus the LT1 cam, plus a fuel pressure increase, plus the cheap Caddy TB intake + pvc pipe + cone air filter, can put you from low 16s in the quarter with the bone stock LO5 to mid to low 15s. Exactly how low into the 15s would depend on how many go-faster tweaks you apply to the car, and how clever you are in making it all work. And the cost would be under $200.
FWIW and to give you a real example, one 93 Caprice 9C1 owner who frequents this forum has done a cat-mod (his used to be plugged), a muffler delete, a Caddy air intake, and a fuel pressure increase, and he's run 15.70 @ 85 mph. I think he may have a 15.6x with that setup, but he hasn't been to the track to find out (yet). He still has the stock LO5 cam, and he has not done anything to reduce the weight of the car. And he has over 120k miles. I believe that with an LT1 cam swap (he has one ready to go in), and a cold air box around his intake cone filter, that he can run 15.4 or better. That's almost as quick as the stock 94-96 Impala SS with LT1, and for a lot less money. FYI, HTH. - Ken '94 9C1
thats rather impressive, I took my '91 9C1 to the track and ran the best of a 16.6 @84mph...i'd like to blame this on a bald tire..but that is probably not it. what do you mean by a cadillac air intake? I already have the muffler delete with a "hi flow" cat. so there really isn't that much of a need for duals. i'm going to do the "quarter fuel pressure" trick. but i'm confussed about the caddy air intake. please explain what it comes off of.
Originally posted by wo0drow thats rather impressive, I took my '91 9C1 to the track and ran the best of a 16.6 @84mph...
The 16.6 is slow, but the 84 mph is not. BTW your website also says both 81 and 84 mph.... and the 81 sounds more consistent with a 16.6 sec timeslip. You need to post your entire timeslip, what the weather was, and where the track is located, and what the car weighed with driver if you have that info, to be able to analyze your run further.
If the track is legit (i.e. it's really 1320 feet long) then your mph indicates decent power (for a darn near stock LO5) but the ET needs help. Given that I've seen some boxy LO5 9C1s run 16.1, and that the 93 I mentioned has run 15.70, then I'd say you can make your car go a lot quicker than it does right now.
Quote:
i'd like to blame this on a bald tire..but that is probably not it.
Actually, I bet you are losing a lot of time at the start, and that would help explain why your ET (elasped time) is poor, but the trap speed isn't bad (for a 4200 lb Caprice).
Quote:
what do you mean by a cadillac air intake? I already have the muffler delete with a "hi flow" cat. so there really isn't that much of a need for duals. i'm going to do the "quarter fuel pressure" trick. but i'm confussed about the caddy air intake. please explain what it comes off of.
and also see the links within the thread. The Caddy part is a plastic elbow that was used on late 80s, early 90s fwd v8 Caddys that used TBI or TB with PFI. You mate the elbow to a pvc or metal pipe and then use a cone filter at the end of the pipe. A cold air box, in sheetmetal, around the filter, like the K&N FIPK versions, will help a lot. The air box is NOT shown in the pixs btw, but it is something worth doing.
This mod is a cheap way to eliminate the tiny air filter used on your car, and to also try to reduce the warm air ingested by the engine, and to feed it with cold air. A trip to a junkyard should help you find what you need, and the links pretty much tell the story.
I also looked at your website. You should look at:
There is a lot of 91-93 info out there, you just have to know where to look. I see you've modded your exhaust, but you didn't mention if you are using the higher flow 92-93 Y-pipe. Also, you can install duals by using the 94-96 trans crossmember out of a junkyard; then the cheap route is to use a take off N10 dual exhaust from a 94-96 LT1 Caprice. The K&N filter you are using, if it is installed in the stock filter housing, isn't really helping that much, but your muffler delete and high flow cats should be. Having a better-than-stock flowing exhaust means you are leaning out somewhat and so your car should respond to having the quarter mod in the FPR.
FWIW the 15.70 car has run a bunch of sub-16 sec runs, so the 15.70 wasn't a fluke. But the owner has learned a lot about what works on the car, and how to launch it.
Post your full timeslip, and post exactly what maintenance stuff you've done to the car, as well as a brief on mods not listed on your webpage. Basically, if the car isn't tuned up and running well, it won't run well at the track and mods you've made, or will make, won't help that much.
And don't discard the LT1 cam idea just yet. It's already been proven that cheap mods can take a low 16s LO5 TBI Caprice and drop it to 15.7, and I think there is a bit more there. The LT1 cam, and/or the 1.6 self-aligning stamped rockers should boost the power by 20+ hp and add torque everywhere... so I think that you can get to low 15s. Cheaply. - Ken
ah yes, that was "my bad" the fastest time (16.6) was at 81mph...the slowest was a 16.9 @ 84mph. ironic eh? the track i went on is gateway international, its part of the winston cup drag racing curcuite, so i'm sure its legit. my car is just goofy, i was runnin on a bald tire, so i'm thinkin that had something to do with just spinning off the line and letting it shift by itself.
When I bought my car I got a yellow folder telling me EVERYTHING ever done to it from oil changes, to tire changes, and whatnot...and looking through it, I saw that the Y-Pipe was replaced two times, and that I do not see anything about a tune up...not one tune up at all in the records and it is going on 150k miles...maybe the last owner who had the car for 1 month gave it a tune up, i find it hard to believe the car would run this long without changing the plugs and/or wires. so I am gonna take a look at them after I get off work tomorrow. A contributing factor to the 16.6 could also be I let my dad use the car earlier that day, and the nice guy he is he puts a lot of gas in my car...mid grade of course...so i went down the track with half a tank of midgrade. there are multiple factors that could be into play. but after i install my LSD, i'm gonna put in 1/4 tank of premium, lower the tire pressure a little, and see what it does. THEN do the quarter pressure trick and the caddy intake, so i can have before and after results for anyone who needs it. but yes, i do remember 16.9 @ 84mph.
Lack of maintenance (fuel filter, plugs, wires, rotor, cap, cleaning the TBI) will have a profound effect on driveability, economy, and performance. So you might check ALL of these things before you head to the track again.
As far as stock 91 LO5 (9C1) performance goes:
1. '91 9C1 road test (LO5) that Car & Driver ran
and they got 16.6 @ 82.
2. 91-93 MSP (Michigan State Police) data tested with driver + passenger + full tank:
3. '93 LA Sheriff's Dept got 16.90 @ 84.1 (in thinner and possibly colder air)
Also remember too that the '91 was rated at 195 hp, and the 92-93 were rated at 205 due to the better cats and the larger Ypipe. So that explains why the 91s were slower, and I suspect that the weatehr was also hotter in the 91 test than the 92-93 tests, because there power differences aren't enough to explain the ET and trap numbers. i.e. if you run on the track on a hot day, all the performance numbers will be worse.
Now for your run(s), the effect of your few mods is probably obscured by a poor launch (a guess btw). Your exhaust mods have probably made up for the difference in the 91 vs 92-93 stock system, and then you're a bit past that due to the muffler delete. I doubt the drop-in K&N is doing anythig useful for you, so I'd expect you to run what a 92-93 stock LO5 Caprice would run.
Taking the 92-93 MSP data and subtracting 0.2 sec and adding 0.5 mph (to account for the extra rider) we get 16.7 @ 83.4, and 16.6 @ 83.4. Those numbers are close to the best ET (16.6) and best trap (84) that you had, so your car ran about where it should. We just don't know how much extra time you could trim from the ET with a better launch.
When you return to the track, use 20 psi in the rears and 35-40 in the fronts. USE TWO FEET when launching, i.e. one on the brake and the other poised on the gas. Go on the last yellow. You may need to roll into the throttle gradually to avoid excess tire spin. It's ok (for now to let it shift by itself), but you may later want to shift manually AFTER the mods.
Allow the engine to cool (hood open) for a long as you can after each run and in the lanes, because a warm engine will reduce power. Do the Caddy intake mod, AND the fuel pressure mod, before you go back to the track. And change the fuel filter just in case. If the filter is clogged, the engine will not run very well and you won't see much improvement.
Keep looking for the timeslip -- it'll turn up. - Ken
Hey, sorry to bring this thread back from the dead but... I got an L05 that I'm building for my camaro which has a beat up 307 in it. I bought an LT1 cam, and now I've pulled apart the L05 and I found out that it was an 86 block which is non roller, so what if I run the LT1 cam with hydraulic flat tappet lifters?
will not work properly and will eventually ruin the camshaft.
you can spend 400.00+ for the retro lifters or purchase a different cam like the old comp cam 12404-4
