TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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Wow, well congrats. Hope that it all actually holds out! You can't deny that there is a definite risk to running 380 ft. lbs or torque thru the stock tranny. That is just common sense. For every one person I know who has been "ok" I know 10 that have dropped many many parts that can't hold up. All I am saying is that if money is a factor, it might not be a good idea.
And what I meant by saying there are LO5 parts available in other cars is that they are readily available used. Meaning you could get them for much cheaper to make the combo work. For example a used ecm or chip from a junk yard Caprice, $35. Custom chip from Ed wright to make a 330 hp engine work correctly, $350. That was my point, obviously all Chevy parts are more or less the same. Besides, in any of his posts did he ask about the GMPP engines? I think he is leaning towards the L05, so go with it. Nice flame though for no particular reason. I can't stand guys like you who flame because they want to. Did I say something to pi*s you off? I don't think so. But congrats on your 13 second car.
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Originally posted by kdrolt 1. 1989 Caprice (brick body) 9C1 (police) LO5 350, first year for TBI. 190 fwhp and 290 ftlbs. This engine was not available in civilian Chevys until 1993 and even then it was detuned (using LO3 cam). Same specs for 1989-1990. The LO5 replaced the carburated roller lifter 350 (LG4?), which had 180 hp and 285 ftlbs IMS.
L05 replaced the LM1. LG4 was the 305 equivalent of the LM1 (both being 4bbls).
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2. 1991 Caprice 9C1 (police) LO5 350, first year for whale body. Exhaust was revised so the engine was rated at 195 fwhp and 295 ftlbs. Civilian 180 hp version of the LO5 offered on Buick Roadmaster, Olds Custom Cruiser and Caddy Fleetwood... but not in the Caprice civilian model (they got the LO3 305).
Little tidbit about the Caddys: 91-92 Fleetwood (FWD) used the Caddy-only 4.9L (200hp). 91-92 Brougham (RWD) appears to have been a D-Body (but the 80s body style, not the 93-96 body style) and it SEEMS like it used the L03. Previous to that, it seems to have used the LV2 (VIN Y/Olds 307 4bbl - 140hp, way weak for a 4500lb car).
In 93, the Brougham disappeared along with the FWD Fleetwood leaving the DeVille (4.9L/FWD until Northstar), with the remaining Caddy RWD being the (new) Fleetwood, a D-Body. It used an L05 for its debut in 93, but was rated at 185hp most likely due to the electric cooling fan(s).
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4. ????-1995 GM truck (Tahoe, 'burban, not sure about C/K pickups) got a 210 hp version of the LO5. I don't know what cam they got, but they probably got a better breathing exhaust and that's where the power came from. The truck LO5s would have been better off with the milder LO3 cam, but I haven't ever checked what they actually got.
I believe the trucks got an L05 from 87 to 95 (88 being the new body style - so all those old style trucks running around with "Electronic Fuel Injection" badges should be 87s...) however it was different enough from the passenger car L05s that it was VIN K, instead of VIN 7. The power (and torque) levels from 87-95 on the L05 varied by year AND by GVWR (1500, 2500, 3500) of the truck...the range seems to have been 190-210hp. And the torque varied from 300-310 (based on my research). The 190 and 210hp ones have 300lb-ft and the 200hp version has 310lb-ft, but it may all be a wash anyway. Just interesting.
__________________ Kevin Moore
1993 Caprice 9C1
L05 TBI, 253k, Dual electric fans, PVC intake w/ NAPA Gold FIL-6440 (!K&N), LT1 manifolds & cats, Dynomax catback, SS spoiler, rear discs.
95 Camaro Z28, black, t-tops, leather, T56, 173k. PVC intake w/ K&N. Dynomax Ultraflo SS muffler. SOLD
Originally posted by dmair5_0 Wow, well congrats. Hope that it all actually holds out! Nice flame though for no particular reason. I can't stand guys like you who flame because they want to. Did I say something to pi*s you off? I don't think so. But congrats on your 13 second car.
Thanks about the car. It wasn't intended as a flame. I just think the origional poster should know what CAN be done, rather than what you might think "CAN'T". Have you ever tried a ZZ4 in an F-body with stock drive train? Certainly you can brake parts -even with a stock engine if you drive like an idiot. I have been daily driving, drag racing(every friday night) AND auto crossing (solo II -every 2nd - 3rd weekend) my SBC 400 powered Trans Am for the last two summers. It has held up fine, and continues to do so.
As for custom chips, etc, You'll notice in my sig that I'm runing my 400 CID engine off of my stock, origional 305 chip and ECM. It runs very well. I'm sure it could run even better, but I'm pleased with the performance, fuel economy (24 mpg) and drivability I've achieved w/o a "$350" chip. I'm telling you and the original poster what CAN be done.
Last edited by Tom 400 CFI; 09-13-2002 at 03:26 PM.
thanks guys, i know that i could get the 330HO but i was trying to keep the cost down. thats y i was leaning towards the LO5. This enigine is a straight bolt on right. its just like a bigger brother to the LO3. so its identical to drop in. im goin to put the LT1 cam in and later on some heads. what heads should i get ? how much power can the LO5 handle?
Im sure the difference between the regular L05 and the 9C1 is the injector flow rate and possibly the cam. So just get the L05 add the LT1 cam, Edelbrock TBI intake, and get some 350 injectors (you should be able to find the 350 cop car injector part number on this website) and you shouldnt have to worry about whether or not it is the 9C1 replacement.
BTW you dont get a warrenty with the lo5 if you put it in a fbody...according to SDPC2000 the warrenty is voided if its put in something besides what its intended for.
Im probably getting the lo5 or the pc1 model...I NEED a motor now and right now my money situation is tight...just started a new job and i have school so i need something.
How much HP would a lo5 with lt1 cam, edelbrock TBI intake, and exhaust put out?
Amazing!
You guys are going round and round! I say call Recon and have them build that engine to your spec. Not the CRATE Recon, but the HP Recon engine line. Those engines are built by one ASE tech with what you want in it. The price is determined by what you actually want done, AND...
You get a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty.
I say look into it.
Why not get what you want in the first place? That's what I did.
LOL even so I got too much of a cam at first. My story is a long tale of hit-and-miss trial and error.
Now with all we know, you can get that engine you want built for you. My engine is a pre-86 2-piece 4 bolt mains, internally balanced.
I say get what you want and modify it, but look at the end result and price you pay.
Up to you.
Yes you will pay more for the HP Recon motor than a "crate", but not as much as you would if you had to take that "crate" apart and do all those things you suggest.
Footnote....
I got to talk a little to the tech that was building my engine... He was laughing as I ordered the gear drive... Ironically, he was nearly finished and was about to put the double roller in. He told me I'd get rid of the gear drive after a while. He was right.
I should know better.
true it would be better to start with something you want. but money wise im goin to have to get the LO5. i already have a LT1 cam. so later on heads will be goin on it.
I would rather get a performance crate or build a motor to my specs...just depends on my money situation I work part time at Advance and go to school so money is tight..
Oh and Im not getting a new motor I found my problem.
If your going to get a lo5 www.paceparts.com has the 9C1 lo5 with the lt1 bottom end and 9.6:1 compression. Has a l98 cam which is worlds better than a lo5 cam. Heads still suck but for 1500$ that would be a good solid start.
Originally posted by TBI305Camaro If your going to get a lo5 www.paceparts.com has the 9C1 lo5 with the lt1 bottom end and 9.6:1 compression. Has a l98 cam which is worlds better than a lo5 cam. Heads still suck but for 1500$ that would be a good solid start.
FYI, the 9C1 L05 actually USES the L98 cam. And that cam is really pretty damn mild too, but not as mild as the L03 cam...so while it would be an upgrade, I'd recommend something more aggressive, like an LT1 F-Body cam (with the stock L05 heads anyway).
__________________ Kevin Moore
1993 Caprice 9C1
L05 TBI, 253k, Dual electric fans, PVC intake w/ NAPA Gold FIL-6440 (!K&N), LT1 manifolds & cats, Dynomax catback, SS spoiler, rear discs.
95 Camaro Z28, black, t-tops, leather, T56, 173k. PVC intake w/ K&N. Dynomax Ultraflo SS muffler. SOLD
thats what i said...it has a l98 cam. Im sure the lt1 cam is better than a l98 cam but id rather have a lo5 with a l98 cam instead of the lo3 cams some of them got. i just pulled my lo3 cam...lt1 cam is going in soon as it gets here.
Assuming those features are correct, yes. They said that my engine that i got from some other dealership is the same as the one they sell. My last post was a direct quote, and there weren't any uncertainties in the message.
Originally posted by TBI305Camaro BTW you dont get a warrenty with the lo5 if you put it in a fbody...according to SDPC2000 the warrenty is voided if its put in something besides what its intended for.
Im probably getting the lo5 or the pc1 model...I NEED a motor now and right now my money situation is tight...just started a new job and i have school so i need something.
How much HP would a lo5 with lt1 cam, edelbrock TBI intake, and exhaust put out?
I dunno if that's true w/ SDPC, but when i called Pace and said "i need a replacement engine for my camaro....they recomended the 9C1...and i DID get a warranty.
__________________ '89 RS......originally L03 305TBI
9C1 350 TPI (GM crate motor)
Lots of go-fast parts
14.7@93.6 MPH.....with 350TBI
NO TIMES W/ TPI YET....
I believe I have a LO5 also from an 88 truck. What do you mean by LT1 bottom end? And is it possible that my LO5 can have a LO3 cam in it. Mine just doesnt seem to have 220 hp. Its hard to believe Ill even experience a huge difference once I put in a 350 chip. (ive got a 305 chip in there now which is probably slowin it down).
Also, Im confused as to why some people are saying an LO5 is only good for 250hp. Last I checked you could get some L31 Vortec Heads, ZZ4 intake (or the edelbrock that fits), 454 TBI w/injectors and an LT1,ZZ4, or LT4 hotcam and be looking at over 350hp. Drop in a 383 stroker kit and itll be good for 420+. Ya youll need stall kits and rear end but the engine isnt nessecarily "limited" to 250hp.
Last edited by Avenger007; 10-29-2004 at 04:43 PM.
I dont know what the exact specs are but the 88 most likely has a flat tappet cam in it. In short it sucks.
The 250 HP bit is due to the heads. Theyre crap. Without the heads and cam its no longer an L05, but rather a 350 shortblock thats good to around 5000 rpm or so. The parts you put on it will determine its power output.
If I have a LO5 am I pretty much guranteed to have a flat tappet cam and those swirl heads? Just curious becuase Im figuring out how much of my 305 could be remaining in my new 350.
Ok, I've been looking at L98's and L05's, and the 9C1 cop engine, and I'm wondering if the Pace engine is the cop engine:
Details
12513151 - 92-93 B, D (L05) (Exc 9CI) vin code 7
MSRP $1,838.00
When a part listing says "Exc ____" doesn't that mean, "except this part," or, "not this part" as in it is NOT the 9C1 they are selling? I suppose I could look up the specs of both motors, cop vs. noncop motor, but if someone knows, please clarify.
Also wondering why I'm not reading about more L98 TBI's. Is it that folks go for the whole TPI setup as opposed to just using the motor? I want to buy/build up a 350 at some point, so I'm looking at options. 305 still runs great though, and quick, it's almost ridiculous for a 13 yr old car. Thanks.
__________________ 91 Pontiac Firebird, 305 TBI, 700R4
open air element, K&N Filter
manual fanswitch, 180* Stat
custom Y-pipe, 3" highflow cat
3" mandrel bent exhaust
Magnaflow catback system
VIN code 7 means 5.7 liter, or 350. 92-93 B (Caprice, Roadmaster) and D (Fleetwood, although only in 1993) applications EXCEPT the 9C1 (which is the Caprice copcar). Remember that the 9C1 version of the LO5 got the L98 cam; the non-9C1 version got the LO3 (peanut) cam. These two passenger car LO5s were otherwise the same as far as the long block is concerned. The 9C1 version did get larger fuel injectors (65 #/hr), a bigger Y-pipe exhaust, and an ECM suited for the cam, injectors & exhaust. The 9C1 LO5 was rated at 205 fwhp in 92-93. So it looks like the engine quoted is the 180 fwhp version of the LO5.
There were no L98 TBI engines. The 9C1 LO5 got swirl port heads designed for fast burn in a heavy car application; the L98s were installed in much lighter cars (F, Y) and used different better-flowing heads. Most TPI owners would feel that removing the TPI for replacement by TBI would be a step backwards, so you aren't likely to read about them.... even though the TPI has it's share of problem areas. HTH.
Quote:
There were no L98 TBI engines. The 9C1 LO5 got swirl port heads designed for fast burn in a heavy car application; the L98s were installed in much lighter cars (F, Y) and used different better-flowing heads. Most TPI owners would feel that removing the TPI for replacement by TBI would be a step backwards, so you aren't likely to read about them.... even though the TPI has it's share of problem areas. HTH. [/b][/quote]
Thanks for clarifying which engine Pace is selling--does anyone sell the cop engine or do you have to go to the junkyard?
As for my question about L98's, I was wondering if there are TBI owners who swap in the L98 for use with their existing TBI setup. I know the L98 is a TPI engine, I was just wondering if the L98 would be a good choice for a 305 TBI replacement motor, and if so, where to find one.
I want a smog legal 350 to go with my existing TBI and ECM, however, I want the strongest motor possible. The L05 doesn't make much more power than I already have, so I was thinking an L98 with a cam and other mods might be a better choice. I'd go full TPI but I don't want to have to change the fuel pump, harness, etc. (still might do it though).
Also, I have seen crate 350's on ebay, billed as Replacement TBI engines that are rated at 300+ hp, and I'm wondering if I'd pass CA smog with something like that, or a HO crate motor from Summit. Any ideas?
__________________ 91 Pontiac Firebird, 305 TBI, 700R4
open air element, K&N Filter
manual fanswitch, 180* Stat
custom Y-pipe, 3" highflow cat
3" mandrel bent exhaust
Magnaflow catback system
Thanks for clarifying which engine Pace is selling--does anyone sell the cop engine or do you have to go to the junkyard?
As for my question about L98's, I was wondering if there are TBI owners who swap in the L98 for use with their existing TBI setup. I know the L98 is a TPI engine, I was just wondering if the L98 would be a good choice for a 305 TBI replacement motor, and if so, where to find one.
[/b]
Your best bet is to get a 350 core and go from there. Select a nice set of heads and a cam to go with what your power goals are. L98 shortblocks make good starting points as well as any longblock with vortec heads. Don't waste your time with the cop car engine. The only reason to look for one would be for the block. Scoggin Dicky sells L98 shortblocks as well as goodwrench shortblocks. Both would suffice for most TBI motors. Emissions and drivabilty will boil down to chip work and cam selection.
Originally posted by Poncho Villa
I want a smog legal 350 to go with my existing TBI and ECM, however, I want the strongest motor possible. The L05 doesn't make much more power than I already have, so I was thinking an L98 with a cam and other mods might be a better choice. I'd go full TPI but I don't want to have to change the fuel pump, harness, etc. (still might do it though).
Theres a problem with that. Here in Cali, you cant swap in a 350 with a TBI and have it smog legal. You gotta have what was available in the car at the time. So if u want to stay smog legal and a 350, u need to go the TPI route, or super ram
ok I have a L05 but I didn't spend anywhere near $1,800. anyway what I did is got one from a junkyard (I think I spent about $700 or so) and planned on putting a few grand into it. I know I need new heads (those swirlports really do kill performance) exaust, cam and a few other things then I'll be happy with it (for now ).
anyway to the original poster: my suggestion is get a junkyard 350 for as cheap as you can find it and then put a grand or three into getting it to be excactly like you want it.
Originally posted by cali92RS Theres a problem with that. Here in Cali, you cant swap in a 350 with a TBI and have it smog legal. You gotta have what was available in the car at the time. So if u want to stay smog legal and a 350, u need to go the TPI route, or super ram
Originally posted by Cadillac There goes my dream to install an LT1 one day.
There it kinda gets fuzzy. U can install a newer type engine (ie LT1, LS1) if it has every single piece of smog equipment that the year of the engine came with. So for example a 95 LT1 engine would have to have all the 95 smog equipment. U then have to go to a referee to get it certified.
In the case of a 350 TBI, it would be considered a truck engine and it would not be legal even if it had the corresponding smog equipment.
If u hit up the SoCal boards, there are people there that would be able to help u out a lot better than me.
Thanks for the info on 350 TBI--have heard you can get away with it because on visual inspection, all SBC engines look the same, unless smog tech checks the block numbers (?) Was thinking a 350 TBI would be easier than a 350 TPI transplant, but I guess not if you can't smog it. Not sure about that though---I thought there were some Cali guys with LO5's, the Caprice 350. I will check the CA boards.
I read up a lot on LS1, LT1 swaps, and yes as mentioned above you can put in any motor, same year or newer, as long as smog stuff is there. Plus I've heard of lots of Jags with Chevy motors passing smog, but yeah you have to get a sticker from the referee.
Guys, great thread. I have this L05 Engine in my RS. It has been changed over to TPI. I have to say that if you are buying the 12513151 350 L05 engine your not getting the L98 cam. Unless somebody has a build sheet or engine parts list that says otherwise, your getting the junk TBI cam. I personally don't believe what some guy over the phone says or thinks he knows. If he can't fax you a copy of the parts list, you can't take his work for it. Like it was mentioned, there were three different cam-med engines for this motor. If you were GM which would you be producing?? Besides, most of these engines are made in Mexico!!!
Question for TKD89RS who started this thread, I see you are in California, are you planning to stay smog legal? I know there is a bit of room for going beyond stock, but just how much I don't know. Also, I see you are already running a non-stock motor?
Last edited by Poncho Villa; 12-28-2004 at 12:31 PM.
Originally posted by TBI305Camaro BTW you dont get a warrenty with the lo5 if you put it in a fbody...according to SDPC2000 the warrenty is voided if its put in something besides what its intended for.
Im probably getting the lo5 or the pc1 model...I NEED a motor now and right now my money situation is tight...just started a new job and i have school so i need something.
How much HP would a lo5 with lt1 cam, edelbrock TBI intake, and exhaust put out?
Just a word to the wise from a GM parts guy. First, if you are replacing your engine with a GM factory replacement engine (Basically NOT a GM Performance Parts motor) you MUST install it in the same vehicle it is intended for--i.e. you can't put a L05 in an L03 equipped car--or the warranty (3yr/50000 parts & labor good at ANY GM dealer nationwide) is void. Also, if you alter the engine (cam swap, etc) you will likely void your warranty as well (read the fine print--there are definite restrictions). Also, GMPP engines are intended for '79 or older vehicles or off-road. If you have to have your vehicle smogged, and they do a visual, you'll likely fail. Unless of course you have a buddy at the test site.
Second, it is legal to swap engines if they come out of the same year or NEWER car--NOT trucks because trucks have different smog laws attached to them. So dropping an L05 from a truck into your car would not legally work. Also, you must swap all the smog garbage from the donor car to yours. Here is a web site that explains it all pretty well on how to go about the swap.
Originally posted by ir0cz I dunno if that's true w/ SDPC, but when i called Pace and said "i need a replacement engine for my camaro....they recomended the 9C1...and i DID get a warranty.
Likely it was their own warranty then--not GM's. We won't even install a GM engine in a car it wasn't built for. Some places will, especially if they do custom work.
im glad u posted all i want 2do is burn a little rubber i aint goin 2 nobodys race i dont carew about time slips just tyin 2 impress d wife. i want about 265 hpout of lo5 that i got running complete 4 3hun
im glad u posted all i want 2do is burn a little rubber i aint goin 2 nobodys race i dont carew about time slips just tyin 2 impress d wife. i want about 265 hpout of lo5 that i got running complete 4 3hun
It was painful just to read this...
__________________ Rest in peace my wonderful wife, Gina - 1969-2008
I miss you every day....
My updated CarDomain site! http://www.cardomain.com/id/murco1989
One-owner 1989 RS, ZZ4, Comp Cams valvetrain, Edelbrock headers and cat back, Astro performance T-5, Moser rear, Alpine/Infinity/Kicker strereo, and Recaro "Sport" seats. More coming soon!
i think the L05 has allot of low end torque but lacks high revving power. the L05 is very similar to the engine that i swapped into my 89 RS. it is bored out .040 over and has an edlebrock cam, which probably helps a little
). 
Unless of course you have a buddy at the test site. 
