JokerRS

THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD IS TO GATHER SOME REAL LIFE DATA IN REGARD TO TBI.

I'm tired of reading bench racing and what can't be done with TBI. Please keep it positive or don't post.

We have all read the flow numbers, but most of us don't know how much our combo realy needs. I see people with close to stock lo3's wanting to run 2" TBI's on there motors. I am running ported S/R torquers, ZZ4 cam, and a performer rpm manifold, and my stock size ultimated tbi is flowing enough air all the way to 6000 rpm. I know this by watching the MAP with WinALDL during several WOT passes. I believe I read a post where Jprevost had done some dataloging during 1/4 mile passes with his 670 Holley. This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Fastbroker used to post on this board. He had some impressive dyno numbers for some smallish injectors at one time.
I can do math. I realize that math is relevant. This post isn't about math. It's about how much HP you acually got with what size injector at what PSI. How much motor are you feeding with what size TBI. Lets get as much real life experience gathered as we can and use it to make a "sticky"

NJ SPEEDER

i was talkin with a guy at a local performance machine shop and he has a flow bench. i was thinking about taking some tb's to him to collect exactly this kind of info.
i woudl also liek to ask people who have bought cams to post up their cam cards. this will allow the use of programs like desk top dyno to be used to get a better understanding of teh potential power of a new combination.

thanks
tim

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Heres how my new setup is and how it performs in real life. Hoping to get at least 250HP out of it eventually.

-Edelbrock flat tappet cam that i beleive is a knockoff of an older stock cam.
.420/.442 gross lift w/1.5 rockers, 204/214 dur @ .05, 112 lsa

-The engine is a goodwrench LM1 replacement motor (350 ci, 8.5:1 CR, "993" hecho en Mexico heads) with just the cam and the stock tbi with the stock air box. The exaust is the same headers i bought for the lo3, with the 2 1/4 in y-pipe leading into a flow master 40 series muffler.

-I recoded a pressure drop of 2 inHg in the intake at WOT under load with the stock tbi, which has 55pph injectors.

-From my best estimates the power output is close to 215 hp at the crank with the cam, before the cam swap with the above mods, the engine put out around 180 hp so the cam gave a welcome 35 hp boost. After heads and a more free flowing exaust, ill put in on an engine dyno to get more accurate results) only have a g-tech to work with now.

i dont have DTD so it should be interesting to see what is predicted vs. what im getting out of it.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

here it is...

NJ SPEEDER

do you know the part number of that cam? i want to start a cam card based data base when i convert my odl geocities web site into a tech site.
later
tim

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

EDL-2102

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

305 .030 approx 9:1 cr
214/224 .474 .498 (with 1.6 rockers so duration is also slightly affected)
edelbrock torker II single plane
'416 305 heads, stock valve sizes; fully ported
edelbrock l98 headers, no cat, full 3" edel cat back
open element
stock injectors@ 20 psi

with the stock size tbi with the mods i wrote about a few years ago it ran a pathetic 93.66 in the quarter mile. Mainly because the fuel side was never tuned right. It did however have almost 2" of manifold vacuum at around 5700 rpm at WOT.

I later switched to a 2" bore tbi and no longer saw manifold vacuum however i wouldnt call this conclusive since it still was not tuned right fuel wise and consequently this affected the airflow demand of the engine.

After switching to carb with the same spark tune i concluded that the fueling was all wrong because Im confident it will easily trap 97+ maybe more than 100 (i know of a very similar combo that traps 101) though I admit i have no track time under my belt.

I really needed some sort of repeatable wot performance test procedure and a wide band oxygen sensor setup. If you think tuning the wide open fuel requirements of an engine is easy then you are a better tuner than I. I must have read plugs 100 times and while it helps alot if you are pretty far off in your tune, the closer you get the less it means anything. Especially with fi fuel curves that have so many rpm points..

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I never reached the point where I virtually eliminated computer tuning as the variable or atleast significantly reduced it(and I think pretty much no one else has save for one or two people on these boards and i mean that literally) Thus an undisputed mechanical result or capability never materialized and really still hasnt been as far as im concerned on combos like mine specifically. I (and everyone else) can really only talk about the one or two combos that have been totally sorted out as far as that goes. So I think alot of the discussion on what TBI is capable of is wasted with poor examples of mal-tuned vehicles which is tantamount to meaningless data.

This is, strictly speaking, without regard to the generic "math" out there to make predictions based on the knowns involved. As you know just based on injector size and airflow you can calculate potential horsepower. This ignores the "gotchas" of all the little things that can make your car run like crap or the specifics of how that injector introduces fuel and how that throttle body introduces air. I dont think its that much different from a carb anyways once both are beyond the throttle plates.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

pablo does bring up a good point which really does set the tbi apart form the carb, and that is fuel and air introduction. One thing i never liked about the tbi system is that at best its equivelent to a small 4 barrel carbeurator. Nothing wrong with that. My brother had a 2nd gen with a 400 + 600 cfm 4 barrel that he used as adaily driver and that thing could really move. But witht he two barrels one encounters high air velocities at WOT. Another aspect which i think comes into play is the fact that the fuel is introduced in a series of sharp pulses by the injectors and unless your running the injectors near 100% duty cycle, this is unavoidable. This combined with the high velocity in the barrels probably ammounts to very spiky fuel delivery. As to the full effect of this, i sure dont know, never seen any studies of it either. I feel that the only way to conclusivly tune a setup with tbi is to have acces to tuning equipment and a chassis dyno. Of coarse most of us dont have access to this equipment so we'll continue to have to "feel" our way along with 1/4 mile times and WOT runs to get an inderect indication of tune and HP output.

NJ SPEEDER

teh intention of the information collected has to be held more in regards of seeing an estimated potential for a combo. everyone knows that a great collection of parts is worthless if not properly tuned.
that is why i think teh information shoudl eb more based on collecting cam card info and flow numbers for specific parts than hp estimates.
the only way any hp estimate can apply itself really is if dyno information combined with a well to very well sorted combo is available.

later
tim

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

does anyone have any links to a comprehensive table of cyl. head flow data? Ive seen some data for the more popular heads but nothing for the stock heads other then say, the lb9, l98 or l31 heads.

NJ SPEEDER

i have a bunch of pieces i am gonna take and have flowed.
1. stock L98 heads
2. stock LO3 heads
3. stock small block tb
4. ultimate small block tb
5. stock 454 tb
6. holley 670tb

i am also going to do a little online research to find as many cam cards as possible to include. i plan to find information for both small block and big block tbi applications.

later
tim

steve8586iroc

Try looking for some flow #s here. http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...598/index.html
Hope this helps you out.

Steve

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I don't have a full set of numbers from my TBI setup. So I'd like to submit some information from a Car Craft article. With help from Holley Car Craft did a 3-way test of the Holley Stealth Ram, a Holley MPFI system and Holley's 700 CFM 4bbl TBI.

The MPFI & TBI used the same single plane intake manifold. The MPFI used a 1,000 CFM TB while the HSR used a 58mm TB. A Commander 950 controlled all three FI systems.

Even being airflow limited (relative to the port systems) the TBI "gave up around 10 peak horsepower.", as quoted from the article.

The engine was your typical 355CI SBC with Holley heads. Cam was a Lunati #30140 (225/235 @ 050, .477/.507 w/1.5's, 112LDA).

The MPFI & HSR were nearly a dead match across the board. Here is a pic of the tq/hp graph of the HSR and the TBI.

RBob.

JPrevost

I only wonder why Holley didn't provide the 900cfm 4 barrel TBI setup. Maybe they were afraid it would be too close and no peak hp loss?!?!!???
It's very interesting to read about TBI being compared to other systems. Most of the time not only are the intakes different but many of them compare completely different motors. This was the only test I've read about where it was a heads up dyno run, no cam swaps for trying to "unlock" an advantage one has over the other. If that were the case you would have seen a completely stock small bore v8 making gobs more torque with a TPI setup vs TBI. It seems like it's not only the cam/heads/intake that holds back the TBI but also the level of time put into the eprom code. TBI's have horrific timing tables vs any and ever year TPI. Yes TPI's had better heads and larger cams (in some) so it makes sence, but tell me why EVERY TBI vehicle I've touched and moved the timing up from 0 to 6 has always performed better. It's like GM said **** this, it's too close, take out some timing and install inferior parts so we can hype up the TPI to pay for R&D .
I hope to get my car into the low 13's with LCA relocation brakets and a dyno session with a wideband o2. If I can pull off low 13's with my heavy vehicle I think it'll make a lot of people eat their words.
I know there are some people with actual dyno sessions, I just hope they post their 1/4 mile times.

Chuck!

My car would be an example of the improperly tuned ones. It trapped 92.80 which was beyond sad considering I was hoping for a 95 on stock chip. I finally got a fuel pressure gague on it and it was set at 14 psi on stock injectors, yet still reading rich under wot. Cruise fuel sitation is even worse, constant 108 blm reading at 12.5 psi on stock freakin injectors. I dont even know how I got 93 mph outa it honestly, the more I learn about the computer its amazing to me that it even trapped that high. My throttle was only opening 88-90% due to my rigging of the stock cable on the vortec heads. Learn from my mistakes, if you're going to build an engine, make sure you do it right from the beginning, not piece and rig like I did.

Slade1

I have actual dyno runs and 1/4 mile times. Small chronicle of Summer-Fall 2002.

July::

Stock almost everything. Flowmaster, hi flow cat, custom built ram air and march crank pulley. 4 year old spark plug wires, plugs, cap+rotor, 14 year old coil. Busted 2.73 gears in december 98, got 3.23 gears...

254.5 ft/lb and 150 HP on the dyno at the rear wheels. Ram air is useless on dyno

Strange, TBI had 255 ft/lb stock at the flywheel, not the rear wheels didn't it?

First run 16 flat

Jumped timing up around 4-6 degrees that day.
I was running 15.8 at best 15.9 avg times 88-89 mph avg with 2.2-2.3 60 ft

August::

Tune up time!

Went from 7mm to 8 mm wires, msd blaster coil, brass cap and rotor.

Dyno results had me at
258.4 Rear Wheel Torque peak
155.9 HP

Timing helped, curve smoothed out A LOT compared to last run. Learned that under load and 4200 RPM just how bad exhaust sucks and car backfired through the TBI.

September::

Solution: I got a cut out prior to the cat, 1.6 rocker arms and bosch platinum spark plugs.

On my first run I pulled a 15.4@91 mph. (cut out closed I had 15.5-15.6 times)

I ran 15.4 avg times with trap speeds ranging from 89-91 mph more consistent 2.2 60 ft times...

October::

I did one last set of runs in October and didn't help my times 15.4-15.5, but I pulled a 92 mph trap speed with the air cleaner off despite pulling a 2.4 60 ft time all day. RAM air was better than stock but it could be better...

I went to the drawing board and redesigned my ram air intake to resemble a TPI setup, but did not have a chance to run for 2002 due to snow.

Currently I have this in my car

305 TBI
Air conditioning charged and working
Smog Pump
Stock Headers
Stock Manifold
Stock Cam
Stock Heads
Stock Transmission 700 R4 With TCC lockup switch
Stock differential
Stock springs, stock shocks and struts
Stock driveshaft
Stock headers with air tubes
Stock Intermediate pipe
Stock Y-Pipe with custom design cutout before the cat
Stock IROC-Z Rims
Fuel pressure regulator made adjustable
1.6 Comp Magnum Roller tip rocker arms
Flowmaster 80 With 2.5 inch tips...
3.23 Richmond Gears
1/4 inch injector spacer.
Redesigned air cleaner box/fog light area resembling a TPI/RAM Air setup
March Crank Pulley
MSD Blaster Coil
Borg Warner Cap/Rotor
Borg Warner 8 mm Wires
No underhood lining, no rear hood seal

15.4@91mph and have lots of mods to go...

Cost, $1000 for the car bought from father in 99, around $1500 spent todo all mods and redo o-rings on engine since 2001...

I think I spent more on fuel than the car lol...

Marin

I think everything is in the sig. The car is very mildly modded and is basically a dog -- an old dog -- a very slow old dog -- well, you get my point. One day (before the 3" exhaust came in) I was pulling consistent high 7-second 0-60s... (See post). Everything's measured with a G-Tech Pro, and I know many of you guys hate it, so you might chose to disregard this.

Later I was consistently pulling 8.1 0-60 . I think it has to do with my "tune-up" to pass emissions. The plugs have less gap since then and the gap is not the same on all of them (in a hurry to get it done). Some of the plug wires are slightly damaged, I think, the distributor cap might have worn points, since the car misses when cold and misses very obviously past ~3500 rpm.

I am not a very experienced driver compared to hardcore guys on this board, so I launched from standard 550 RPM in D and let the tranny shift by itself.

So (in case my sig changes):
0-60: 8.1s
1/4: 16.4@84 mph
weight: ~3700#

I did the run for fun, because I only use it as a relative reference for myself. I should have been more serious, since G-Tech is not mine and a buddy who has it moved to New Jersey -- now I'll have to go to a drag-strip to check on improvements and that's slightly less practical than having a G-Tech (though undoubtedly more accurate).

--
1992 25th anniversary RS
154,000 miles, 305 LO3. 5W-30 inside
Stock bottom-end, heads, intake, exhaust manifolds.
Shaved throttle body.
Stock FPR, "rebuilt."
"rebuilt" injectors (another pair of used injectors + borg-warner carb rebuild kit)
Toyed with TV-cable, a little looser.
Stock tranny ... 700R4 (I have no idea how it hasn't blown on me). Dexron III inside.
Stock torque converter (what's the flash stall on that one anyway, I have a feeling mine is slowly getting busted...)
Hooker 3" exhaust
No cat - straight pipe
3.08 open-diff gears.
16x8 with 245/50 Kumhos
glass hood, non-functional
15x3 open-element non-drop base, K&N filter
timing bumped by 2 degrees
--

this bizarro-combo has a pretty unique sound, like 2nd-gens or like old-school 5.0 Mustangs.. everyone keeps telling me how the sound is cool -- I don't care, the car is slow. I'll record it if anyone's interesed.

Plans: (yeah, I know, they're just plans)

- Accel coil, Nology HEI module
- put SLP headers in
- EPROM burning (I have much experience in this, computers is what I do for a living)
- make the cowl hood functional
- port intake (I hear the stock intake is of criminal quality), or get something better from a swap meet.
- bump the FPR to ~20psi and redo the fuel maps accordingly. Might help atomization. Possibly boost fuel-pump voltage.
- port heads, new rockers & springs, maybe an LT1 cam.
- turbo pistons and a twin-turbo made from VW turbos with Saab cold-start injectors serving with water+nitromethane when I really need that extra kick. joke. I doubt a 305 is worth any bottom-end work, might just invest in a 350 junkyard-special.

Enough BSing, any comments on the car or plans?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

heh... think i found out why i only had 215 hp... one of the lock nuts on the #6 rocker kept coming loose and the rocker would come almost completly off. So, basically, it only had 7 cyl. Not too shabby for a 7 cyl, i must say. Anyhow, i ran it through DTD2000 and got 260 hp@5000 rpm for my combo w/ open headers. Im gonna go out to the bone yard and get some vortec heads and another tranny that actually works. Should get some decent performance by then.

RICH92RS350

I have a 350 caprice longblock (pm rods, 2 bolt mains, cast crank)
Iron L98 heads (unported)
Crane compucam 2030 (hydraulic roller)
204/214 duration @ .050, 260/270 advertized,116 deg lobe separation,.429"/452" lift.
Open/Close @ .050 lift
Int / Exh:
(14) 38
43 9

Edelbrock Performer TBI intake, Turbo City AFPR and ported throttle body, (Cop Car Injectors @ 17 psi)
SLP 1-5/8" headers, 3" Catco Cat, 3" Flowmaster Cat-Back.
Chip by Ed Wright (fastchip.com)
Motor Dynoed at 317 HP @ 4500 and 399 ft/lbs @2500 (flywheel)
before installing it in the car. I'll have rwhp #'s in a couple months.
(just spent all my money on a TKO and I'm out of work)
-Rich-

FRMULA88

Excerpt from "Car Craft" Jan. 02 Issue.

"Total airflow through a gasoline engine determines it's maximum power. At peak power a full-race engine consumes about 1.67 cfm per Horsepower.

AFR has developed a formula that predicts a normally aspirated four-stroke gasoline engine's horsepower potential based on intake system airflow:

Hp = 0.25714 x cfm x No. Cylinders"

Get the stock heads flow benched
Then try porting a pair of stock heads

You will discover that the HP potential of the 305 is head flow limited. After all the time, effort and money, you can build a 350 that will outperform the 305. I am not trying to slam the 305 it's a reliable engine but dollar to dollar the 350 is a better candidate for a performance build-up.

NJ SPEEDER

if the limitation is the flow of a particular set of heads that really doesn't have anything to do with teh 305 they sit on top of. if the flow of a set of heads is a restriction on a 305 then it woudl certainly be a restriction on a 350 or 400 motor.
also, the economic issue of pocket porting a set of heads in a garage compared to a 350 is way off. i would be afraid if anyone tried to sell me a "performance" 350 for what a standard abrasives home porting kit and soem gaskets costs.

later
tim

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I think you are forgetting about the valve shrouding going on in the small bore of a 305. Even if you are using a cam that does not have enough lift to bring the valve out of the head you are not taking full advantage of the head and id venture to guess that the close proximity of the bore wall still hinders the airflow anyways.

I dont think he was referring to a particular set of cylinder heads (I.E. 305 heads) just any head in general on a 305

Marin

I am not really sure that this discussion is appropriate in this thread (since JokerRS clearly states the purpose -- TO GATHER SOME REAL LIFE DATA) and we are discussing theory. I don't mind my post being deleted if admins think this kind of discussion is appropriate elsewhere. May I add it also happened many a time in the past, which is why this thread is about real life data. I am saving this one so I can repost it in a more appropriate thread.

305 is an oddity (being a bored & stroked 265, I believe). 350 is a much better engine, having 4" bore that is compatible with a majority of performance V8s, much better bore/stroke (1.149:1 in 350 compared to 1.073:1 of 305) ratio allowing less stress on connecting rods and thus higher revs, higher separation between cylinder walls allowing overboring and higher stress (unlike 305, which in addition to that has an odd ~3.75" bore, which, of course, shrouds more and can only be overbored further .060" risking block failure 1 out of 10 times) and who knows what other kind of advantages.

HOWEVER, the economics of swapping in a 350 when you have a 305 are not justified unless you have your own machining tools, a garage, and an engine hoist OR you have worked on the engine enough that you need to resort to lower block work to get anything more out of it. A junkyard special 350 needs to be inspected for cracks and probably magnafluxed, overbored, honed, reringed, new bearings, gaskets, possibly new pistons, often re-cammed (because one of the lobes gets worn), new rockers & springs (if heads are not shot), etc. Also, we would need an ECM upgrade, a knock-sensor upgrade, and an injector upgrade. With that much $$$$ involved you still most likely will not be ahead of someone who invested half of that money in a 305.

As far as flow goes, even if you make 305 heads flow, say, a measly 200cfm, according to FRMULA88s post, that's 400HP assuming 100% VE, or more like 320HP assuming 80% that is what most of our 305/350 engines have, which means you are already beating stock 1976-1994 350s with a 305. Of course, you'd need to put a better exhaust, like a 3-Y from some truck or some dirt-cheap used headers and a little "jollier" cam (but hopefully something with a little more "pep" than an LT1 cam which is also a stocker). In addition to that I postulate (and I don't mind standing corrected on this one) that 305s are more sensitive to mis-matched flow than 350s and that thus porting the criminal stock TBI intake (or swapping it with something else) and port-matching the intake/heads/exhaust improves things greatly. If I can get 170 horsepower cheaply from a 1.8 liter eurotrash FIAT engine, I can get 320 horsepower cheaply from a 5.0 engine.

If I were to do a "build-up" as FRMULA88 mentioned, meaning if I were buying an engine and building it bottom-up for my car, I would be insane to choose a 305 instead of a 350. However, if I am on a budget and stuck with a 305 having no machining equipment, garage and an engine hoist, I am better of spending the $$$ in improving the 305.

Dollar/per dollar the smartest thing to do for 305 AND 350 owners is to build a twin-turbo, since MegaSquirt ECU is under $200, larger injectors for about the same, a fuel pump voltage booster is under a $100 and a super-tough 700R4 reinforcement is like $500 if you do everything yourself. Add to that some $200 (I'm guesstimating) you'd spend on junkyard turbos and $300 (again, a guesstimate) you have With a low-boost you get 400 horses easily, on extremely good mileage and realiability and sky is the limit if you invest further $800 in turbo-pistons. However not many of us (certainly not me right now) have that know-how (it has been done on a 305, but in Europe, with a Wolf/SDS unit that is comparable to MegaSquirt but much more expensive).. Since we're talking about a turbo setup, VE skyrockets to some 110% and intake flow is not as important as exhaust, furthermore lower LSA (like the one on stockier cams) is preferred. 350 again has an advantage because of less shrouding, but it is not as important as before (i.e. worth extra $$$ for swapping in a 350)....

However these are all what-ifs and until I see some real-life data (especially TBI related), you can all call on me...

FRMULA88

A motor can be swapped out in a weekend, I have done it. You can rent a Cherry Picker. If you get along with your neighbors that is a plus if you must work in the street.

Why does everyone need a Machinist to swap an engine? The only time I get machinist involved is to rebuild/modify an engine. (bore, notch block for stoker)

A running 350 donor vehicle can be found for cheap and there are lots of choices besides F-bodies (Vans, Trucks, Blazers, Suburbans) A donor vehicle would also have the cricitical pieces you need (ECM, Harness, etc)

These donors have 350s with TBI, which will be an easier swap than a TPI equipped F-body Donor. The motor WILL bolt right in and mount to your 700R4.

The nice thing about a donor is that you get all the parts you need PLUS you can hear, see, & feel how the engine runs. Obviously you can pass on buying a donor if it smokes, has a rod knock, etc. etc. 9 times out of 10 you will find a nice running truck. Odds are also good that being a truck the engine, the block might have 4-bolt mains, but thats OK if it's not, none of the 3rd gen f-bodies ever had them anyway.

About the only new parts you will need are headers and exhaust, but you were going to that to your 305 anyway right? Anything else will swap over from the 305 (pullies, accessory brackets, etc.)

Now you have a decent running 350 TBI installed in your f-body chassis complete with ECM. What you do from there is up to you. You now have good foundation to build on.

PS: For the record the 305 is not really an ODDBALL. The 305 and 350 blocks are identical in design except for the BORE SIZE (3.736 vs 4.00). All the internal parts except for the pistons interchange. They BOTH have the same Rod Ratio of 1.64 (5.7 rod length / 3.48 stroke) therefore both have the same RPM potential.

The big difference is that the 305 was built in responce to the energy crisis, and was a way of making a more fuel efficient V-8 with some (I strongly state some) amount of good performance. It will never outperform it's bigger brother.

Marin

Thanks for clarifying that, I didn't know that 305 and 350 had the same rod/stroke ratio. I thought 305 is an oddball considering its bore is incompatible with most of other engines out there...

I'm honestly curious to how I would do an affordable 350 swap. Can you give me a feasible scenario (with prices)? Here I am in Chicago, no garage.

If it is feasible, I'll do it without thinking. I don't expect you to hand me a solution on a platter, but I do need a little more reassurance than just "it's easy" before I plow into it. Actually, I do want you to show me that swapping in a 350 is a budget investment -- 350 is, after all, better -- and under those circumstances I'd be more than happy to do it..

I assumed machine-shop work because I don't really trust a junkyard motor to be in operable, let alone performance, shape.

I'd truly appreciate if you'd tell me:
- how I'd find a donor car and how would I know the engine is running strong?
- how would I do it in a weekend? (no garage)
--- finding someone with a garage is okay, as I said, I'm ready to go through as long as it turns out to be budget ---
- how much base HP would I have?
- how much will it cost me and how it will pay more than continuing to mod the 305 that I already have in my car (in other words, after which investments would I "break even")?

Thanks in advance,
Marin

FRMULA88

you got it...

DRAG STRIP DATA LOG
DATE TIME TEMP RT 60' ET 330' ET 660' ET 660' MPH 1000' ET 1320' ET 1320' MPH NOTES

11/11/00 12:51 57 0.733 1.834 5.218 8.036 87.360 10.479 12.586 104.990

11/11/00 13:19 57 0.670 1.753 5.115 7.936 87.170 10.384 12.492 105.250 BEST RUN OF THE DAY

07/01/02 13:41 80 0.851 1.663 5.046 7.927 85.150 10.439 12.615 102.110

07/21/01 10:57 80 1.192 1.737 5.203 8.158 83.590 10.700 12.851 102.460 MADE RUN WITH BROKEN RING GEAR

05/04/02 14:19 72 0.929 1.687 5.073 7.964 85.320 10.466 12.615 103.870

05/04/02 15:44 72 0.930 1.682 5.065 7.941 85.680 10.439 12.583 104.200

05/04/02 20:38 72 0.768 1.740 5.120 7.991 85.830 10.480 12.630 103.900

05/27/02 11:23 72 0.925 1.850 5.330 8.280 83.860 10.810 12.960 104.690 STAGED DEEP

1988 Formula with 350 SBC and Holley Projection 900CFM TBI

Engine and Fuel Injection installed and tuned by owner.

I plan on installing a Governor kit for trans. to raise shift points approx. 1000 RPM. the fuel map is set up perfectly problem is the car is shifting too soon.

FRMULA88

I can't teach you how to be a mechanic over the internet.
You would buy a donor vehicle just like you would any other car you plan to drive everyday. Use your best judgement to find a good running vehicle your major concern is that it runs well, it need not have perfect sheet metal, flawless interior etc.

I am not an accountant but what's 4 seconds off your ET and 20 MPH worth to you??

I used to live in Chicago until I moved out to McHenry, I race at Great Lakes Dragway and am a Club Gold Member. I am there often racing in the brackets or testing/practicing during the week so who knows maybe we can talk in person.

Look for a black Formula with vanity plates "FRMULA" I am in pit area BW24 during the brackets.

Marin

I would say it's kind of hard to find properly running Vans, Trucks, Blazers and Suburbans for under $800-$1000. That's a lot of money if you ask me. I don't think I would run 12s just by dropping a 350 in -- I'm pretty sure that a nice 900 CFM Holley Pro-Jection 4-bbl kit that you have contributes significantly to that time.

Now I called 1-800-2HOLLEY and got a phone # of a dealer in Chicago. I had them look up a 2bbl 670CFM kit and it was $1200, and the 900CFM kit that I couldn't even find listed on Holley's website is $2000.

That's the price without the intake manifold and perhaps some other 'goodies' I'd need to install.

As you pointed out, I am not a mechanic, but I try my best to learn as fast as possible. I volunteered this summer in Europe for a month or so working on all kinds of eurotrash (hence to reference to a FIAT) and I got offered a part-time job to help a mechanic in the area which I might take to improve my skills even more.

Now I am not an accountant either, but if I had some $2000-$3000 to spend you wouldn't see me pondering on keeping a 305 for now.

You said that "[a]fter all the time, effort and money, [one] can build a 350 that will outperform the 305. " You also mentioned the phrase "dollar to dollar" so I think there is some accounting involved.

So the primary concern of everyone owing a 305 is the time, effort and money when swapping in a 350 will pay off. I say until there is a lot of stuff done to a stock 305 setup, the time, effort and money spent on swapping a 350 is not worth it.

I hope to run into you some time, maybe I will get to see you, your crazy '88 Formula and talk to you over there. You can find me getting myself beat up in Southside Chicago

FRMULA88

Compression Test

An engine which passes this test is in good mechanical shape and a likely candidate for a swap and build-up.

Low compresssion can indicate; bad seal between head and block (gasket), valve lash out of spec., or worn rings.
A Chilton's or Hayne's repair manual explains how to do this test in greater detail and also has the values. Readings should not vary more than 10 psi between cylinders.

You can rent the tool but it is a good investment and not that expensive to buy.

If you are truly on a budget and want to go fast then ditch the fuel injection and go with a carb (See I just saved you lots of money!! ) The OEM TBI system although good for stock and MILD performace upgrades, in my opinion, is garbage for a high-performance application. The OEM 2-injector design is flow limited. If you want to to stay EFI then I suggest going with an aftermarket system, which offers lap-top tuning, the ability to store and upload fuel maps, and most important a TBI that will flow more fuel than you would ever need .

Marin

I see you have much experience but that you haven't been active on www.thirdgen.org for so long.

If you have, you might have seen that I was a total greenhorn a year ago, and while I am not claiming to be an expert nowadays, this summer I did get an old 1.8 liter 4-banger Volvo 740 with a curb weight of #3300 to have an 8 second 0-60 in under $200. Trick: porting the intake, port-matching the intake, head and exhaust, milling the heads to 11:1 CR, porting the throttle body and the adapter plates, putting BMW M3 double-springs (free from junkyard) and a valve-job, ram-air (plastic & vacuum tubes $20). Tools: 3 sets of wood-etching drillbits ($5 total), a Russian-style Iskra 1000RPM drill (~$25) some ratchets and wrenches, machinework was about $50 total and gaskets were under $20, the rest I forgot where it went into (sparks, oil, beer, food and gas probably). Some might say that the effort was not worth it, but it was FUN FUN FUN especially to peel out any time I wanted to in 1st or 2nd gear and, more importantly I learned a lot. But thanks for reminding me of a compression test. I sort of knew that anyway. That Volvo used a stock Bosch L-Jetronic single-point 1bbl throttle-body fuel injected system, however it had a crank-sensor ignition: very precise which made me feel a bit safer about bumping up the CR.

Now if I were able to do that on that piece of **** I expect to do better on my 5-liter TBI. People just bolt stuff on and expect to get improvement but I like to take care of fine and subtle bits that can be tuned to get some nice gains.

Stock TBI is nowhere near its aftermarket buddies, but there is www.diy-efi.org and a DIY-PROM board on this site and these guys have done tons of improvements. Similarly, a computer with better performance than the Holley you have sells for around $400 (Pretty much the cost of parts) and it's EFI-332 or you can get really adventurous and yield similar results from MegaSquirt (under $200).

But you do have to know a little about programming, computer architecture and some rudimentary electronics. Since I now officialy happen to do programming for a living, it's not a hard choice to make. And there's a bunch of people on this board who've taken the time to learn stuff --- learning doesn't cost you anything except time.

So yes, I guess it ends up being a matter of taste -- some of us just like to try and take the less proven road, and while money matters, we can give it all the time and effort we feel like to try and come up with some interesting results.

Slade1

Do what you want, knowing full well what you are doing and what options YOU have available to you.

I for one have a 305 in great running condition and will work with that for now. When I get it into 14's with still most of the stock engine intact this board will be the first to know.

15.4@92mph with engine on the whole stock is a good base to work with for me.

Marin

Yes bro, thank you! In July 1983 edition of Hot-Rod someone posted a while ago they built-up a 400HP LG4 305 doing no lower-block work. The engine dynoed at 402HP@7200RPM (tee-hee ) and 344ft# @ 5500RPM --- like a r!cer hehehe .. I'd give $50 someone just to give me a 5-minute ride in that Camaro

Actually they threw a rod once but that was probably just their bad luck (they said they had no idea why it happened and when they pulled the block apart there was nothing that could explain why it broke) which is why they put custom rods later.

But yeah, I have a scanned-PDF with me, includes the whole procedure, part numbers and a dyno chart, so I can e-mail it to any interested party. Again, 402bhp and 300 at chassis dyno. Thank you, hopefully that's going to end the "305 power-potential" discussions

FRMULA88

The LG4 has a Carb which that means that better aftemarket units (Holley, Edelbrock, Demon, Predadtor, etc) are easily installed.... (Like I said if you want fast for cheap ditch the stock TBI)

Carb, cam, heads, intake, and compression ratio all affect power output. Just bumping up compression from 8.5:1 (stock rating ) to 10.5 is a 8% power gain. (Reference Car Craft July '03 article on compression ratios)

RacerXWS6

Heres my setup.

305 LO3:
Holley Pro Jection intake
Stock TBI
Edlebrock headers
flowmaster
Lunati flat tappet cam Part#00016 @ 218 in 218 ex @ .050 duration advertised duration of 284 in 284 ex
lift at valve is 458 in 458 ex.

I find Im lean off the line, but about 2k it pulls damn hard. I have no HP #'s at all. Just some info to chew on.