TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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Can someone ID what pph these injectors are? The PNs are: 6201/5389. They are the mini delphi units that come with the holley tbis and I have no idea what pph they are. Didnt care too much before but now that they go static at even modest rpms at WOT I care.
Lets change tach a bit... If you have late model tbi injectors in your holley and you know the pph flow rate of them, post the P/N printed on the plastic connector on top of the injectors.
i had a holley book at home. 1998. they range from 45/50/57/64/65/69/80/90 lbs. part # are all "522" followed by another number one or 2 digits. none are close to what you posted.
Doesnt look like holley is going to have any input. Same thing with delphi. Its funny, on their front page that greets you when you go into their fuel injector section, the holley tbi injector is sitting right in the middle of a photo of various injectors. I even emailed them the picture with a big neon ****ing pink circle around the injector that I wanted part numbers on. They havn't emailed me since in over a year. If indeed the numbers on top are PN's id like to get them all compiled and archived on TGO so people can know what injectors theyre getting. So, pretty please with a virtual cherry on top, if you have known pph late model holley injectors, post the numbers...
D'oh!. The post I was refering to had me telling you the same thing, though we assumed you had the 65pphs. Sorry about that. Hopefully holley responds to your email.
Found the actual injectors from delpi in their catalog (3rd time through is always a charm). Im going to go on the assumption that since they look identical to the holley ones that they probably are the ones that holley uses. Theyre used in a variety of FWD applications (Pont. LeMans, Buick Skyhawk, etc.) The PNs are FJ10040 - FJ10043. These are the low pressure units rated at 10 PSI Looks like they have a second set rated at 43 something psi at much lower PPH rates.
The low pressure set ratings @ 70 kPa (~10psi) are:
Go have a look. Just enter one of the part numbers above and itll give the specs. Donno but it looks like holley has been f'n with the numbers to hide the fact that they dont flow much at the stock pressure rating. ...And Im lean at WOT because?
On the bright side, at least I know what part number to tell the guy behind the parts counter when I want to go get the largest set they make.
It should also be added that these are NOT intended to be high pressure injectors. They are the same design as the old larger style units. The nozzle is identical to the old stuff. The high pressure ones use a different nozzle (and probably design) from the looks of the pictures.
The only other thing I can think of is that holley has Delphi make the injectors proprietary jsut for their tbis but that seems a bit far fetched, especially given the rumer that their rated at 21 psi by holley
I'm confused so I give up, lol. The only way it looks like you'll get the flow info is if you bench test them. Do it at different fuel pressures and if you've got a junky set, keep cranking up the fuel pressure until the injector fails .
I might as well build my own bench. All that's needed is a test bench, an o-scope, a graduated cylinder, fuel pump, and stop watch . I have everything except the cheap graduated cylinder.... so I'll just use an electronic scale instead .
I'll do this after I get some flow data on the TBI in a couple of weeks. FSAE competition is next week, after that I'll have more time.
That would be cool if you could post the data from what you get after you flow test them. Being that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, holley probably just purchases batches of injectors from delphi and ships them out the door with their tbi units. In order not to have people get turned away, they rate them at a higher pressure so they can actually say they have decent flowing injectors in them. If you use the ol' square root of the pressures they come out close to what holleys ratings are. Cant see the injectors being anything else given that theyre the same old mid to late 80's low pressure injectors that the OEM units from delphi are. I even pulled one of mine out and compared it to the pics posted, theyre the same units. Also looks like they designate the flow by the color of the filter and the paint dab on the tip of the nozzle. My color wasnt there since the ones I ahve are ancient but i suspect that theyre probably 50 or 56 pph.
Interesting that there are deviances between the rates quoted by holley at low pressure and the rates quoted by delphi. The delphi ones seem to be a bit higher.
Originally posted by dimented24x7 It should also be added that these are NOT intended to be high pressure injectors. They are the same design as the old larger style units. The nozzle is identical to the old stuff. The high pressure ones use a different nozzle (and probably design) from the looks of the pictures.
Hmmm....I just found the following additional specs on the Delphi 59pph injector:
Seems like this injector can be run at higher fuel pressure levels. It's interesting that they provide a static flow rating at 43psi(300kPa). Also, the max pressure is 100psi!
Now.....would it possible to run this injector in a TBI application at "TPI" fuel pressures (43psi)??????
One concern would be the o-rings blowing out, but how could this injector be "tested" to a max of 100psi without the o-rings....or could this be a calculated maximum? Second concern is the internal TBI pressure regulator, could this be bypassed and along with an external regulator safely allow running at 43-45psi?
I didnt know they had a max design pressure of just over 100 PSI. I probably saw it there but it didnt sink in. I wonder how much they flow at that pressure?
Wouldn't atomization or puddling be a problem with pressures higher than 40 psi or so?
An external regulator can be run. va454ss is running one, and used a fabbed up block off plate where the stock regulator was. Though I don't think he went quite as high as 45psi, I'm pretty sure he was running upper 30's
Originally posted by r90camarors Wouldn't atomization or puddling be a problem with pressures higher than 40 psi or so?
An external regulator can be run. va454ss is running one, and used a fabbed up block off plate where the stock regulator was. Though I don't think he went quite as high as 45psi, I'm pretty sure he was running upper 30's
I'm was running my supercharged (Whipple) 355 w/Holley 670 TBI off the stock 7747 ECU. I could get the BLMs tuned close to 128 with 15psi base fuel pressure, but it seemed like the tuning varied day-to-day due to changing atmospheric conditions. Also, I live at 7000' so that doesn't help. The Whipple FMU (just a VAFPR) adds 1.25 to 1.5 psi per pound of boost giving me 25psi at 7lbs boost.
Due to the trouble I had tuning the 747 in a boosted application, I swapped over to a 749 ECU last week. The 749 is wired for peak&hold and seems to drive the Delphi injectors just fine. However, as the 749 has a different firing strategy, it ran dangerously lean at 15psi base fuel pressue. Bumping the pressure up to the 21psi max of the Holley 670 regulator just barely got me to 138-140 BLMs at cruise. 21psi on this injector calculates out to 85lb/hr.
I'm guessing that my application needs the equivalent of 30lb/hr port injectors.....so that would be 120lb/hr for each TBI injector. IF I can run the Delphis successfully at 43psi, that gives them a calculated rating of 122lb/hr. This would also allow me to eliminate the FMU.
Oh, the Whipple system has a heated TBI baseplate/adaptor so I don't "think" that atomization or puddling would be a problem.
Sorry it's been so long. Rebuilding my Holly TBI and the injector part number is D080A-5389 . These injectors were bought in 2000 when I ordered a "502-6" complete TBI. The injectors were "65#" but the stock fuel pressure was 12psi .
Anyways, all the places I've tried to get to flow bench the TBI injectors has said they don't have enough buisness to do them. Something about how they have both of their machines setup for MPFI and that it wouldn't be practical to change one over (an hours worth of work) to do one pair of TBI injectors .
So I've been running ~28psi of fuel pressure for a while now without any faults. I'm running the 330hp crate engine if anybody needed to know.
My injector doesn't have the pretty white/purple/blue/red plastic, mine is like proto-type dark orange .
Holley injectors from Summitracing.com
522-81 : 45# dark purple
522-54 : 65# blue
522-80 : 72# orange
522-43 : 85# light purple
Now if you go to the Delphi fuel injector website you can look at the colors to find the actual injector size. What's weird is the oragne injector.... delphi doesn't have one on there site, lol. Seems like Holley screwed up royally and can't find the key that tells them what injectors are which.
Those are the same units I have. The 5389 appears to be an older outdated PN. I have yellow plastic parts on mine.
Mine was set to around 12 psi as well. I would imagine its due to the fact that theyre made for use on tbi cars/trucks and holley doesnt want to nuke any stock fuel pumps by setting the pressure so high.
Delphi rates those as 42pph ± 2% @ 70 kPa. At 28 psi thats probably like 70+ pph for each injector.
Originally posted by dimented24x7 Those are the same units I have. The 5389 appears to be an older outdated PN. I have yellow plastic parts on mine.
Mine was set to around 12 psi as well. I would imagine its due to the fact that theyre made for use on tbi cars/trucks and holley doesnt want to nuke any stock fuel pumps by setting the pressure so high.
Delphi rates those as 42pph ± 2% @ 70 kPa. At 28 psi thats probably like 70+ pph for each injector.
My injectors were only 42#? So when Holley sent them to me with only 12psi the weren't even sized for a stock 350..... this is where I'm a little confused. Holley couldn't (wouldn't) do that. That's asking for a lawsuit. They got a carb # so I can't see that as being possible.
Looks like thats pretty much what they did I sifted through almost all of delphis catalog and the largest available 'small' style injectors are 62 something pph that are rated at 29 psi. The largest available in teh stock pressure range are the ones listed above. It looks like one of those 'read the fine print' schemes to sell their product. They couldnt say that their largest tbi injectors only flowed 60 pph so they tested them at a higher pressure range. I guess thats the way they chose to do it.:shrug:
I have those same ones at the stock fuel pressure and they go static at around 3000 rpm or so and have trouble getting the NB O2 much above .9 volts. I wonder what the actual AFRs really are with those injectors.
The easy solution IMO is jsut to run a good fuel pump and 20+ psi and call it a day.
My injector part number isn't in your list or on the delphi site.
Could you help me file a lawsuit against Holley? I like em but there needs to be compensations made for such a large cover-up.
Here's the issue;
I get a Holley TBI for my 350 truck. The part number from Holley is 502-6. The stock injectors (and regulator) are 55#. The Holley replacement is 45#. My engine melts it's pistons from running lean when in open loop. I can think of a few friends that just passed the bar exam that might want to take this to the next level. If anything it'll give them something to do other than pushing papers around. I'll let you know if anything happens and I'm hoping since the Holley injectors have a different part number on them that they ARE in fact made specifically for Holley and the claimed flow numbers are at the set 12psi.
Eh, considering some of the other replacement automotive parts ive run into the injector thing isnt that bad. They might be smaller then spec'd but they work well and seem to tolerate pressure. Given all the info available id definatly say that they dont flow as advertised. I remember looking at a saturn with a monobarrel that had the small type injector and the holley ones I have are exactly the same, right down to the rochester products logo. Looks like regular old gm parts used in an aftermarket app. It sucks that they appear to only be FWD'r injectors and not higher flow units. Would eb great to have a compact, high flow injector. But hey, they say they can be safely used to 100 psi. Theory predicts that that would increase the flow from 42 pph up to 132 pph, but I suspect there is some sort of upper limit as to how fast the fuel can flow through the nozzle.
Ive been thinking about flowtesting teh ones I have to see what they really are. I still havnt gotten around to getting the stuff I need to do it, though.
If you bought the 502-6 TBI replacement and it has the #5389 injectors (2001 and newer) they are 65lb/hr @ 12psi. That has been confirmed. Now I can rest assured that I don't have some dinky little injector.
Im running the ones you have at 12 psi or so and theyre maxed the hell out on my aneamic 350. Either that or my BSFC is totally in the gutter. Hopefully its just a pressure problem. Im going to check up on the pump when I get teh car going again and make sure its giving me the full 100%. I guess I will see...
Although for me the jury is still out. On one hand they should flow as advertised but on the other hand, Ive gone completly through delphis catalog and the largest ones available are 60 pph at ~10 psi. If my pressure checks ok Im going to consider getting a set of '85 pph' ones from summit.
As for the PNs, none of the part numbers in the delphi catalog match up to whats on the injectors, or any gm parts for that matter. Those in the catalog seem to be delphi specific.
Dim, Delphi's online catalog is for OEM cars only. I got a hold of tech support before they closed and he said that he couldn't tell me what Holley has because that was probably a contract deal. They're specific to Holley and made to there specifications. So I called Holley and got a hold of a guy that looked up the #5389 part number and came up with 65# at 12psi. The calculations work out for me. Definatly check your fuel pump, that was my problem in the very begining.
Im definatly going to check the pressure. It was a new stock replacement when I got the car but maybe its getting tired. If I see 12 psi across the board then I guess they jsut dont flow enough fuel and Ill have to run more pressure.
Originally posted by dimented24x7 As for the PNs, none of the part numbers in the delphi catalog match up to whats on the injectors, or any gm parts for that matter. Those in the catalog seem to be delphi specific.
Exactly. There have been a number of post about injector part numbers, and each time I see different numbers on what is what. Buyer beware.
I learned the hard way, and have had to return 2 sets of $140 injectors.
wow, this site has helped over the years. I found an answer to the question, which was the same as the original one here, about the 5389, gonna use them in the here and now, in this old post. This is the most comprehensive database for many reasons.
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. I have everything except the cheap graduated cylinder.... so I'll just use an electronic scale instead 
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It sucks that they appear to only be FWD'r injectors and not higher flow units. Would eb great to have a compact, high flow injector. But hey, they say they can be safely used to 100 psi. Theory predicts that that would increase the flow from 42 pph up to 132 pph, but I suspect there is some sort of upper limit as to how fast the fuel can flow through the nozzle.
