give it a shot. nice to have a WB

well. first I went the wrong way on the AE filter values. I will have to try again tomorrow. It is really odd but at night when the car is cooler and the air temp is cooler it runs leaner. it was idling at 16:1 finally instead of 13:1 when it was 105 today. if the coolant temp goes over 220 then velearn trys to add fuel at idle. I think i'm ready to set the idle in the table and stop having it learn there.

even though i decreased the duration on the tpsAE i increased the PW chart numbers by 15% -- in most attempts i didnt go lean right at tip in and i didnt get any backfires. TPS ae is becoming more clear for me as the more immediate AE and MAP changes havent really been making any difference.

For the life of me i cant get the AFR to stay above 12 for the time after the 3/10s of a second lean spike - it keeps seeming to get there when PE kicks in then eases back up to the commanded 12.9 from 11.1

for DE - im doubting it but my goal with that is to simply keep from going too rich when i lift not to go ultra lean right? i think I've got de adjusted for too much, i go to 20:1 a few seconds after de turns off.

I think my idle goal is 15-16:1
My wide open throttle goal is 12.3

cruising on light load is 15.

Anyway. I think I've blown out my passenger side header gasket with one of those lean backfires. Either that or i've done some damage or something to the passenger side head. There is something like a lifter clicking or exhaust leak towards the top rear of the engine and it speeds up and gets louder on acceleration.

I think i've got to the point where not doing this in real time with 2 people is getting useless and too time consuming. I've got to go to a parking lot sit in the passenger seat and have someone one go 0-60's for an hour and get this ae or pe in check.

This is one of the caveats of running speed density on a wetflow system. If the conditions are right, the fuel can manage to pull ALOT of heat out of the intake charge. The fuel calculations asssume that the coolant temp represents the temperature of the incoming air charge, while in reality, it could be anything depending on what the conditions are. If the intake charge is cold, youll lean out. If its hot, youll richen up. I had the car out on saturday when it was hot and humid and the TBI and center section of teh manifold where covered in condensation and cold to the touch because of all the heat the gas was pulling out of the manifold when it vaporized. Tuning wise, Id just try to reach a happy medium and call it a day.

before i keep tuning. lets all play NAME THAT SOUND!

exhaust leak? lifter? valve?

http://www.snflupigus.com/files/camarosound.wmv

started right after the oil was changed. My guess is that a lifter hasnt been able to pump up? or... when they lifted the car they hit the exhaust and the header is no longer sealed? OR i blew the header seal or something else when taking it to 4800rpm before the oil was changed and I just didnt notice the noise. it has backfired a bit, but pretty sure those were intake backfires. AND --- I think i would have noticed this sound before the oil change, so I am afraid its a lifter issue or exhaust issue caused by the oil change.

your thoughts?

That's what it sounds like to me....

My question is, what is the time frame that AEtps and AEmap come in, i know the filters increase or decrease the fade out and it looks like in the datalog its only a few tenths of a second but are the dTPS in the datalog and the %tps in TunerProRT numbers I can compare or is the %tps in tunerpro something too fast to datalog? I just want to clarify that I'm going about this with some thought vs. what I feel like I'm really doing, which is guess and check.

For my combo...

I've taken half of my AE out of both tps AND map.

I've also increased the filters by 20%

Starting to think 68pph injectors on this thing are WAY too big and I should put the stock 45s back in with higher pressure. Here's some pics.

velow

vehigh

AE




I just added 20% back to my tpsAE and added 5% to my rpm mult below 1800rpm.

I think I'm getting close to this mystery. It is 105 degress out and my cts is about 100. I dont think map ae is comming in much but when PE turns on it goes below 12:1 and I'm trying to keep from doing that.

What should be my A/F constraints?

The 68s are NOT too big for a 305, I ran 100# with mine and still passed emissions (47* overlap on the cam too).

Stock 305 injectors are also 55 lb/hr, not 45. 68# injectors are only 24% larger than the 55# injectors that came in the 305 stock.

Thanks fast... one of those things i knew once and have forgotten or at least remembered wrong

with the lifter ticking, and I'm pretty sure thats what it is now. maybe I'll wait 3 months for my house to be done , then tear the engine out. Put new lifters cam and intake on it, and put it into my 914 -- then save up for an ls1 for the maro. who knows... I cant decide what the plan is yet. - i might still tinker and tune it with the noisy lifter just to throw it through emissions one more time.

Ok... so Im on file name ebl33blm now... meaning I've pretty much done about 50 total datalogging sessions and ve learns and much more. My AE's are nearly cut in half and I can get the VE learn on BLM to learn -1 or +1 when it is. When I switch over to Wideband Learn and open loop cruise and idle VE learn tries to add a bunch of fuel back in to the tune of about 3% and take some out on idle. for the last 20 or so data logs I've had the egr and purge vacuum lines plugged and disconnected. Today I hooked the lines back up and ran around for 60 miles or so and 2 VE learns on blm to get it nearly pegged in where it wanted to add in 1-2% in a few places but wasnt taking any fuel out anywhere.

ANYWAY,

I went in for my 4th Emissions testing session and - well first a recap....

TEST #1 = $29.99
HC = 1.66 / 01.00 standard = FAIL
CO = 14.79 / 12.00 standard = FAIL
NOX = 1.83 / 02.50 standard = PASS

TEST #2 = FREE RETRY
HC = 1.17 / 01.00 standard = FAIL
CO = 9.02 / 12.00 standard = PASS
NOX = 2.07 / 02.50 standard = PASS

TEST #3 = $29.99
HC = 0.86 / 01.00 standard = PASS
CO = 12.74 / 12.00 standard = FAIL
NOX = 1.44 / 02.50 standard = PASS

and now!!! FINALLY PASSED!

I was so happy, then I saw the numbers. HOLY CRAP!

TEST #4 = FREE RETRY
HC = 0.4 / 01.00 standard = PASS
CO = 5.4 / 12.00 standard = PASS
NOX = 0.75 / 02.50 standard = PASS

I cut EVERYTHING evenly and by a TON! O yeah, and the lifter is still ticking away obnoxiously, they weren't too concerned at the testing station.

Thank you Rbob for the ebl and Innovative for their wideband. AND of course, for all your guys help here at thirdgen who follow this "saga".... and btw, the temp outside is 103 w/ 18% humidity. not bad for here but HOT. almost all of my datalogging includes the AC on... emissions was tested with it off and I data logged the whole test. I'll post it later along with some map pics.

final update. cruise control is working perfectly now that I fixed that speed sensor too btw.

I'm done tuning (till winter cooler weather). I'm going to burn a chip and put it in and take the ostrich out and put the laptop away for a while. LOL.

Damn snuf, maybe one day I'll bring my car down there and you and TonyC could give me a hand tuning. God knows I need it.lol

Eye candy... and analytical fun! ALL from the emissions datalogged test.




http://www.snflupigus.com/thirdgen/e...-emissions.EBL
http://www.snflupigus.com/thirdgen/e...ncondensed.xls

big pic but shows the whole run in ebl graph form... I think I'm on the verge of playin with a lean burn engine now! LOL.

http://www.snflupigus.com/thirdgen/ebl/emissionsrun.jpg

just pointing out that fast was correct.... again. Thx man. haha

Forgot this pic.

Time for round 2.

I replaced the performertbi manifold with a performer eps carb manifold and threw a carb to tbi adapter on it. No EGR now and no air injection either. I removed the metal hard line to the cat and welded it closed over the port at the cat. I also shaved the ridges and radiused the bores on the throttle body. I installed the modified pod with the -6AN return and feed lines including a fuel gage showing about 12 psi when hot. 13 when cold.

Thank god, er, i mean Rbob for EBL AGAIN... Drove it for 15 minutes and she pulls off the line so hard that I think I've discovered a bad or broken tranny mount. or rear end bushing. clunk clunk on launch... thats new.

The new manifold has made the engine require MUCH less fuel at low rpm but the previous bin that was pretty well finished is still dead on for WOT. I'll have to add some fuel back into the spark AE in some places but other than that she runs like a top and gets up and goes just fine.

a few more sessions with ebl and I'm sure I'll be back to emissions passable and daily drivable. If I can find this oil leak this weekend and fix that issue. Its always SOMETHING!

fancy
no sames look familiar on here

long time no talk taz!

hail to the holley 950 commander!

uhh, what?

check it.


http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...10002_54106_-1

definitely worth the price.

why you gotta hijack my thread without any actual information?

the 950 seems nice but I got the ebl, larger injectors and modified my pod for about 400 bucks totals plus wideband. and I'm still way under 1600. It seems like 4 times that price without 4 times the technology it is not a better decision in my book, but thats just my opinion. now maybe 10% more technology would be realistic. In any case, my thread, my saga, my ebl love story.

At the end of the day, the $$$$$ Holley system will not run like a tuned EBL setup or late model TBI PCM will when they are dialed in.

not to mention the EBL does more than the 950.
wow, 375.00 just for the wideband on that 950, no thanks, i'll stick with my ZT2.

snuf, i didn't notice if you have taken care of the lifter yet.
if not, put about half a quart of trans fluid in with the motor oil about 200 miles before your next oil change & see if that helps.

you gotta be kidding me. "MY THREAD" hahah

Snflupigus started the thread. If you want to talk about the greatness of the not so good Holley Comander 950 setup, START YOU OWN THREAD, that simple. In case you haven't noticed the ones of us that know TBI best have passed on the Comander setup and are running the EBL. I have also had good luck with the PCM which will even control a 4L60E or 4L80E. Back to the thread, this one is Snflupigus' regarding the EBL and prior TBI tuning experiences.

UPDATE:

I just loaded the latest version of WhatsUP and EBL updates for tunerpro. Open Loop Decel Enlean added. Helped a ton. The newest version of whatsUP is amazing and oh so pretty to watch... see my response below to another thread. BTW, with my mods I am getting 22mpg avg city and 28-32 highway avg. mwahahaha!

_________________

Correct, i have the classic with i think one version back of the ostrich. I did LOVE it. With the ostrich i could toy with idle fuel and timing in real time and give the engine what it wants to idles super smoothly. It was modifying the temp adjustments related to fuel that are tough to get my head around. I could get it to idle perfectly at temp but on start up it would be a tiny bit rough. So i got it closer while not to full op temp using the ostrich, and then just turned on Wideband Idle... then i turned on wideband cruise, then I updated my EBL code from RBob to the most recent version and turned on wideband decel enlean. AMAZING! - decel was giving me a pulsation a bit, with wideband decel enlean its like driving a stock car for driveabilty! You would not notice its modified until you hit the gas

so for me, since i have everything running smoothly, i would probably only buy the flash version now to clean up my passenger floor area

flash is obviously an update, trust me, you can live without ostrich - as long as you have a wideband, the ve learn in whatsup and other functionality of EBL get you running smoothly SO FAST that you wont need to be tuning in real time. I did everything the old way back when we were burning chips and putting in zifs because we were swapping chips so often you were bound to break some pins off LOL... EBL is such a gift. And the newest version of WhatsUP is SO F'n fun to watch that you have to remember that your driving so you dont die. hehe.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU RBOB!

___________________

Hey o have heard nothing but good things about the EBL Flash. Since i see that you have your fair share of experience with the Classic but upgraded to the VE learn features i was wondering what you thought of tuning a 355 with 212 218 cam on a 112 lsa with bolt on for more air flow, ultimate tbi mods, performer intake and few things that i might be forgetting. There is so much reading and ive done so much but this post is the only thing i find from a beginners standpoint (well not anymore.....your motor seems to be running great over the years...haha). Sorry to budge in on your post but im not sure where to ask this.

the saga continues.... passed finally in 08 with a leaking header gasket... its late 2010 failed emissions 4 times now. (however, i just had the car changed to classic insurance and now get a 15 year rolling waiver!!! why didnt I know about this law before!!!) Anyway, this is the latest after new plugs and coil. very close to good. one question. how do i fix that rich???? spike on decel at the end above 50mph? CO and HC spike?

When you lift accelerator the increase in VAC shears the wetting off manifold walls showing the enrichment on WB. Happens to me all the time. Only way I know of to minimize is use of DE and DFCO in your tune.

Throttle follower also has a large affect on the spike. The delays before the IAC starts to close is what helps.

RBob.

Does that delay add more air to balance out the enrichement that resulted?

I think I have too much TF fuel as I was using that to overcome a bog from accelleration from a standing stop(manual). That was fixed in part with AE filters.

Yes, the IAC stays open for a moment to add air to help burn off the excess fuel.

RBob.

so increase the delay? i have messed with so many settings. most i read about. adjust until it works then forget why i did it. I really should start a journal.... LOL --- what should I look at that I might have adjusted over the last few years that could cause this more than the base ebl tune i started with?

This table is what delays the closing of the TF IAC steps:

IAC - TF Decay Delay

Look through the IAC - TF _________ parameters. There is the gain vs. TPS, MPH breakpoints, max TF steps and a decay rate table.

The downside to the decay delay is that the engine won't drop RPM as quickly on a throttle lift. So it is a balancing act to get it the way one likes it.

On stick cars I usually set up the TF to give the best shifts. That is don't hang the RPM up, and don't let it drop too quickly. This improves driveability.

RBob.

Q: what should I look at that I might have adjusted over the last few years

Do a compare in TP from the stock EBL to your current .bin