TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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Well guys as a few of you already know the 350 went to the engine stand this past weekend. It started missing a little and suddenly lost power and picked up a tick @ idle about a week ago. I started checking things and found the electrodes burned off of two plugs on the driverside bank. At idle the driverside injector was barely spraying fuel and did not increase as the engine was reved. Pulled the lid on the injector pod and the injector. Somehow crap covered up the screen on the driverside injector and almost covered the passengerside. I then went to check the compression. Two cylinders on the passenger side were dead with 0 psi. Further inspection showed melted piston tops. The 350 was pulled and sits on the engine stand awaiting a future rebuild. The rebuilt 310 that was on the stand went into the van. It is a roller cam block with ported 187 heads and a F-body LT1cam. I am swapping the TPI setup that came with it on at the same time. I upgraded from the crappy multec 19s to RP LT1 24# injectors. The 310 should serve its purpose well. I will be running it on the TBI PCM using the MAF to control the fueling. So far I have changed the cylinder volume constant, injector flow constant, and switched it to CPI/MPFI mode along with using the CPI 4.3 memcal that I have (fires the injectors on every 4th distributer reference pulse with the V8). I also changed alot of the settings to disable asynch, etc. We will know tonight when I get it fired up how things went.
Oh, I also pulled the tank, cleaned some rusty stuff out (from bad gas), replaced the fuel filter, after flushing the fuel lines.
damn it... sorry to hear that man... atleast you had another waiting to replace it... I learn so much from you.. I know exactly, that little filter on the injector, that gets feed from the tiny hole in the pod... so lack of fuel to the cylinders, caused this?
Before completing TBI conversion on my Beast I dropped both gas tanks. After 30+ year of holding gas there was a lot crud and rust on the bottom of each tank. I end up replacing one tank and had both tanks (old and brand new) coated with special polymer based process by Gas Tank RENU ( http://www.gastankrenu.com/how.htm ). Renu process is not cheap, but quite frankly I do not want to find myself on side of the road as well. Also, since I have a surge tank in my fuel system gas has to pass through three different filters before it finally hits the fuel injectors. Yes, I know I'm weird - but that is nearly identical system that we use on fishing boats and it works very well. Out 100+ miles from shore things must work or otherwise a fun day of fishing may turn into a serious dissater.
I guess you needed those new pistons even more then you realized. Chris you still amaze me. You do entire engine and fuel system swaps like the average person puts air in a tire. Its just like blinking to you. All I can say is the frame rails on that van have got to be getting loose from all that stabbing if ya know what I mean.
I upgraded from the crappy multec 19s to RP LT1 24# injectors. The 310 should serve its purpose well. I will be running it on the TBI PCM using the MAF to control the fueling. So far I have changed the cylinder volume constant, injector flow constant, and switched it to CPI/MPFI mode along with using the CPI 4.3 memcal that I have (fires the injectors on every 4th distributer reference pulse with the V8). I also changed alot of the settings to disable asynch, etc. We will know tonight when I get it fired up how things went.
Fast,
The memcal no longer controls the firing mode in the MAF code. Regardless of the memcal used, the firings will still be in TBI mode as the flag/timer that orginially controlled the injector firings is no longer used. This is in preperation for allowing the firing mode to be controlled and set entirely within the software regardless of what memcal is in use. Ultimatly, you will be able to set the firing mode by simply typing in the number of cylinders and selecting either MPFI bank fire or TBI fire. It will still work in the TBI firing mode for now, but the injectors will fire 2x more then they need to. Also hit me up with a PM later. There are some internal hardware mods that you need to do as well to use high-Z injectors.
Before completing TBI conversion on my Beast I dropped both gas tanks. After 30+ year of holding gas there was a lot crud and rust on the bottom of each tank. I end up replacing one tank and had both tanks (old and brand new) coated with special polymer based process by Gas Tank RENU ( http://www.gastankrenu.com/how.htm ). Renu process is not cheap, but quite frankly I do not want to find myself on side of the road as well. Also, since I have a surge tank in my fuel system gas has to pass through three different filters before it finally hits the fuel injectors. Yes, I know I'm weird - but that is nearly identical system that we use on fishing boats and it works very well. Out 100+ miles from shore things must work or otherwise a fun day of fishing may turn into a serious dissater.
//RF
When I pulled the tank, I actually looked at the inside with a flashlight through the fuel pump sending unit. After draining the tank and flushing it a few times. It was clean. My tank was not rusty. It was a gas station that had crappy gas from their underground tank. I am actually trying to find out what I can do about it now. I would love for the state to catch them for selling crappy watered down gas.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbi-MAX
damn it... sorry to hear that man... atleast you had another waiting to replace it... I learn so much from you.. I know exactly, that little filter on the injector, that gets feed from the tiny hole in the pod... so lack of fuel to the cylinders, caused this?
Actually, lack of fuel to the cylinders would have been better. It was an excessively lean a/f ratio that killed the engine. The engine would probably still be ok today, had it had a dual plane manifold on it and not a single plane.
Last edited by Fast355; 10-08-2007 at 05:13 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
When I pulled the tank, I actually looked at the inside with a flashlight through the fuel pump sending unit. After draining the tank and flushing it a few times. It was clean. My tank was not rusty. It was a gas station that had crappy gas from their underground tank. I am actually trying to find out what I can do about it now. I would love for the state to catch them for selling crappy watered down gas.
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Actually, lack of fuel to the cylinders would have been better. It was an excessively lean a/f ratio that killed the engine. The engine would probably still be ok today, had it had a dual plane manifold on it and not a single plane.
Yeah, I wanted to rinse my tank, when I droped it to do the walbro 255.. i inspected with a flashlight.. it was clean to me.. so i just reinstalled new pump. Really sucks about the watered down gas. cause I had that happen on a mazda, even set a check engine light... I always try to get shell or chevron, or texaco for the burb..
Fast, also, make sure you change the injector flowrate to be the flowrate of one of the MPFI injectors x 4 with the current MAF code. This is because each cylinder will recieve 4 injector firings before it goes thru an intake cycle in TBI mode. Also keep in mind that the inj. drivers are currently still in P & H rather than saturated firings. This can be changed by modding the injector driver circuit. PM me.
Sucks to hear that about the 350. Sounds like it was a really sweet motor.
Fast, also, make sure you change the injector flowrate to be the flowrate of one of the MPFI injectors x 4 with the current MAF code. This is because each cylinder will recieve 4 injector firings before it goes thru an intake cycle in TBI mode. Also keep in mind that the inj. drivers are currently still in P & H rather than saturated firings. This can be changed by modding the injector driver circuit. PM me.
Sucks to hear that about the 350. Sounds like it was a really sweet motor.
Thanks for the information. I had already assumed that, being that I now have 4 injectors hooked to the same driver and they would all be open at the same time. 4 port injectors mimic the TBI injector. I talked with Robert Rauscher regarding MPFI with a TBI ECM a while back. He stated that it will work fine in a low speed application (under like 5,500 rpm) and be completely tune-able. I have been running a Fiero intake on a 3.4 in a GMC Jimmy for some time now.
The 350 was fun, but it is coming back, with even more power. The TPI setup is just the harbringer of things to come. The next engine will be MPFI but making over 500 HP.
With a few minor mods, the PCM can drive the injectors just as teh TPI ECMs do, so you can turn high spees without issue. Ive been meaning to add in teh MPFI support for some time now, so Ill probably start working on that. The only other thing you may want to do is turn down the MAP AE as you now have a dry flow manifold.
What mods in addition to the MPFI do you have planned for the 350 this time around?
What mods in addition to the MPFI do you have planned for the 350 this time around?
Tom is local to me and was going to convert my PCM to work with MPFI for me. He is just very busy at the moment. I am not all that worried about it right now. I will be more worried when the 350 goes back togather.
Dimented- the plans involve a 3.875" stroke crankshaft.
goin for the small block 396 are ya? the jump to a 383 from a 350 is the same sotp feel as going from 383 to 396
That would be correct sir. If I play my cards right, I should have over 500 ft/lbs @ 3,000 rpm. I am doing a 4L80E swap before swapping in the 396 though. Will probably run the 305 TPI in front of the 4L80E for a while just to make sure the 4L80E rebuild works out OK.
Hate to hear about your engine, Fast. I've got my TBI Vortec 350 up and running in the truck, had a Code 44 Lean O2, seems my TPS is screwy and not responding or responding sluggishly......and at full throttle was only showing 3.6v instead of the correct 5v, so no wonder it went lean on me.
I need to ask you some questions, will be sending them via PM.
i assume that the modified pcm that you have came from a p30 chassis with a 454/4l80? or can a pcm setup for a 4l60 be reconfigured for the 4l80?
The PCM can run a 4L80E, just has to be reprogrammed for the 80E using the $OE code. I have even run a 4L80E on the $OD code, but it requires wiring a relay in to invert one of the shift solenoids. I would have to dig through my notes to remember exactly how it was done.
BTW, there were PLENTY of G-series vans with the 4L80E behind the 4.3, 305, and 350
The PCM can run a 4L80E, just has to be reprogrammed for the 80E using the $OE code. I have even run a 4L80E on the $OD code, but it requires wiring a relay in to invert one of the shift solenoids. I would have to dig through my notes to remember exactly how it was done.
You can also invert the shift solenoid states within the code. There is a table that dictates what the shift solenoid states are for a given gear.
Tom is local to me and was going to convert my PCM to work with MPFI for me. He is just very busy at the moment. I am not all that worried about it right now. I will be more worried when the 350 goes back togather.
Dimented- the plans involve a 3.875" stroke crankshaft.
Sweet, but watch for cam / rod bolts / bottom skirt / cylinder opening clearance. I had similar issue on 383 with 6.0" rods I build a while back! Also piston pin might be a bit high. Check and double check...
That would be correct sir. If I play my cards right, I should have over 500 ft/lbs @ 3,000 rpm. I am doing a 4L80E swap before swapping in the 396 though. Will probably run the 305 TPI in front of the 4L80E for a while just to make sure the 4L80E rebuild works out OK.
396 ehh mate... sounds like quite the beast on a tbi setup... that tq looks pretty low down in the rpm... cant wait till you get er done man... really wanting some video of that...
Well guys, guess what. I runs. Fired up on the first attempt with the camara rolling. Still needs some finishing touches. Still running on the TBI tune with the exception of an injector constant change.
It sounded rough in that video because of the TBI tune and I found out that one of the injectors was not plugged in! It idles smoothly and does not show LEAN on the WBO2 anymore. The PCM was trying to richen the mixture due to the O2 going over the wideband.
I now have it running in SD mode on a 4.3 CPI memcal and 4.3 CPI based calibration. I put the B-car LT1 timing MAP and a 1990 305 TPI A4 Fuel table in my PCM. Runs VERY well now. Still needs to be fine tuned, but I could drive it daily and live with it now. The only issue left to fix is the TPS. It seems to be reading in reverse. It idles a little rough until it gives a high voltage TPS code at idle. I reset the PCM and drove it immediately. It ran fine. I dropped hte hammer down on it and before I got out of first gear, it had a low voltage TPS code. The TPS problem makes it lag a little on take-off and surge on decel. I am going to log it tommorrow with the laptop and see what is going on. If it reads 100% with my foot off the gas and 0% with the pedal floored, I am going to switch the two end wires at the TPS connector. It might be a bad TPS though.
The duramax is throttle by wire so he wouldn't do that.
you didn't get it( or maybe you did?). any how i was wondering on the 396 tpi motor and was thinking of a cam with little overlap a real agressive intake lobe (high lift moderate duration)and a short duration exhaust(with high lift) or has the tpi been EXTENSIVELY ported for use with the 396? F.I.R.S.T. intake perhaps?
you didn't get it( or maybe you did?). any how i was wondering on the 396 tpi motor and was thinking of a cam with little overlap a real agressive intake lobe (high lift moderate duration)and a short duration exhaust(with high lift) or has the tpi been EXTENSIVELY ported for use with the 396 FIRST intake perhaps?
I got it but I'm saying he'd never do that if the engine is throttle by wire. He likes the old detroit diesel in the 68' model chevy trucks.
you didn't get it( or maybe you did?). any how i was wondering on the 396 tpi motor and was thinking of a cam with little overlap a real agressive intake lobe (high lift moderate duration)and a short duration exhaust(with high lift) or has the tpi been EXTENSIVELY ported for use with the 396? F.I.R.S.T. intake perhaps?
That is just a port matched stock TPI setup with some work done on the base. I also ground the runners smooth wher they were disfiguered from the welds. I ground the EGR dams down too. Other than that and the LT1 injectors it is stock. The FPR is even the stock GM unit. I am suprised to see the fuel pressure at 46 PSI stock. Seems a little high for a 1986 peanut roller 305 (what the TPI came from), but it will do.
The 396 will be using a single plane intake with injector bosses added to it and 40ish # injectors. I will probably be adding bosses to the Edelbrock 2bbl Victor Jr. Vortec manifold and running a 2" TBI without injector pod as an air meter. The TPI setup is just to get the MPFI setup with the PCM up and running.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred95
I got it but I'm saying he'd never do that if the engine is throttle by wire. He likes the old detroit diesel in the 68' model chevy trucks.
Lol, yeah I hate drive by wire. I also like the 2 stroke Detroit Diesel, who doesn't. They have a wicked sound.
This is the 64 chevy he was refering too. Its pretty darn sweet, lol.
im there with ya dude. i just finished a 16v92 for a drag truck<-- not a typo.
duramax joke was for lots of different "surprise" combinations put together and run by Fast.i enjoy em all, and when i get a digital camera you will get to see em all. just now getting the hang of typing and posting and editing my thoughts so others can understand them.( i don't think with the correct spelling either)
damn and here i was thinking that you actually were goin to run the tpi. the only other 396 small block i have been involved with used a small base circle cam and we eventually went to the revised firing order (1-8-7-3-6-5-4-2)and specified the lobes for use with a 1.7 rockers (followed smokeys lead and it worked!) Good God that motor sounded evil under the predator we were running. 12.4 compression with 43cc heads. we used the pontiac winston cup head package that had full mirror ports. used the small block ford header and cut/welded our own flange and then dumped the whole mess for custom headers. 880 horse to flywheel at 7900.set it up for a sprint car but then sold to some guy on ohio for his hotrod. i'm going to have to find my notes on this now. i may have given them to the guy we sold the engine to.
damn and here i was thinking that you actually were goin to run the tpi. the only other 396 small block i have been involved with used a small base circle cam and we eventually went to the revised firing order (1-8-7-3-6-5-4-2)and specified the lobes for use with a 1.7 rockers (followed smokeys lead and it worked!) Good God that motor sounded evil under the predator we were running. 12.4 compression with 43cc heads. we used the pontiac winston cup head package that had full mirror ports. used the small block ford header and cut/welded our own flange and then dumped the whole mess for custom headers. 880 horse to flywheel at 7900.set it up for a sprint car but then sold to some guy on ohio for his hotrod. i'm going to have to find my notes on this now. i may have given them to the guy we sold the engine to.
Plenty of guys run the 396 now in LT1 cars. They are becoming common with the B-car guys and the F-car LT1 guys are now getting on the boat. Best way for a LT1 guy to run down a modified LS1. AFR LT1 heads on a 396 LT1. I WILL be running a small base circle cam with the LS1 firing order, 1.6:1 roller rockers, 10.5:1 compression, Edelbrock E-Tech 200 heads, and MPFI.
i dont have a way to record it. the detroit dealer we got it from had let it go runaway on thier dyno. i got to witness the carnage. i was there just picking up parts. thier regional rep just wrote it off and told them to scrap it.the thing ate its own oil,and another 25 gallons they pumped into it to try to have enough time to get it to shutdown. The flaps didn't shut it down and a few shirts were thrown into the blower to get it to stop to no avail. hell a piece of paper will lock a detroit blower up on the bench! i got the motor basically for nothing and got paid to build it for a local tractor puller. needed new blowers, turbos(upgraded to 4 total), new heads, and the cranks actually weren't twisted. the coupler ring between them was toast, every piston and rod. am using 8v104 injectors in it though. feels like a top fuel dragster idling by your legs though.2 2" fuel feed lines, hits 85 psi between the turbos and blowers. me thinks blowers are a restriction, but necessary to idle and startup(without a small gas turbine). now that i think of it im not sure what this engine will produce for real top end boost. my "customer" just wanted me to build it. he said he'd tune it so i didn't guarantee the build but he was happy with it . i built it in his shop with his tools. it was what he wanted.
i'm part of the b body community as my considerable bulk just don't fit in a f body no more. do a search for karl ellwein engines. or even golen engine, MTI, and some others. lots of inf. Why not jump to 421 with same stroke,rods,firing order, intake just need a low mileage 400 4 bolt block he he
hell i didn't mean to high jack sorry for letting the cat out of the bag on the revised firing order.
Last edited by rocko350; 10-10-2007 at 01:11 AM.
Reason: apology
I did learn something about a TPI setup today kinda harshly. It can sit and idle all day long and the runners will stay relatively cool. But open the throttle and run it at say 2,000 rpm for around 2-3 minutes. With the EGR enabled, it gets that plenum and the runners nice and toasty, FAST. Exhaust heat just dumping into the upper-end of that setup. I burned my left hand messing with it.
I also learned the stock fuel pressure regulator on a 1986 305 with the peanut cam was set at 46 PSI.
Plenty of guys run the 396 now in LT1 cars. They are becoming common with the B-car guys and the F-car LT1 guys are now getting on the boat. Best way for a LT1 guy to run down a modified LS1. AFR LT1 heads on a 396 LT1. I WILL be running a small base circle cam with the LS1 firing order, 1.6:1 roller rockers, 10.5:1 compression, Edelbrock E-Tech 200 heads, and MPFI.
Man, my upcoming 350 with vortec heads and XR270-HR just isnt worthy anymore...
Also, what kind of pressure drops where you seeing before with the 2" TBI? From you maxing out the LS1 MAF with the 350, that was probably around 700-800 CFM of airflow. Theres a possibility that it might hold the 396 back.
Man, my upcoming 350 with vortec heads and XR270-HR just isnt worthy anymore...
Nope. Thats childs play anymore. I would love a stroked 427 tall deck making around 1000 hp with a turbo but I may just end up settling for the vortec roller block in my garage seeing the amount of success the small blocks are having now, especially on TBI.
Nope. Thats childs play anymore. I would love a stroked 427 tall deck making around 1000 hp with a turbo but I may just end up settling for the vortec roller block in my garage seeing the amount of success the small blocks are having now, especially on TBI.
yeah... thats right... lol
I plan on doing a turbo on my 383... ill be in depth tunning by that time... is it any successful turbo tbi 383s out there? i figure a used turbo or 1 off a cummins or something...
I plan on doing a turbo on my 383... ill be in depth tunning by that time... is it any successful turbo tbi 383s out there? i figure a used turbo or 1 off a cummins or something...
Did you use something other then cast internals I hope? I've seen one turbo'd 383 f body making around 600 hp to the wheels on something like 12 pounds of boost. IMO a Garrett ball bearing turbo is the way to go. The Holset turbo's from a cummins usually aren't the best choice efficiency wise. They are designed to build around 30 to 40 pounds of boost on the cummins. Boost like that would blow the heads off a SBC.
Did you use something other then cast internals I hope? I've seen one turbo'd 383 f body making around 600 hp to the wheels on something like 12 pounds of boost. IMO a Garrett ball bearing turbo is the way to go. The Holset turbo's from a cummins usually aren't the best choice efficiency wise. They are designed to build around 30 to 40 pounds of boost on the cummins. Boost like that would blow the heads off a SBC.
no my crank is cast steel or something from Eagle cranks, and my pistons are speed pro.. nothing is forged... but does that means I cant handle any boost at all? or would it be better to supercharge it? I was thinking like 8 boost of turbo..
no my crank is cast steel or something from Eagle cranks, and my pistons are speed pro.. nothing is forged... but does that means I cant handle any boost at all? or would it be better to supercharge it? I was thinking like 8 boost of turbo..
No it doesn't mean it can't handle some boost, but anything north of say 450 hp I'd start to cringe if you run the engine hard. Two bolt mains and cast cranks aren't exactly boosting material. Also the fasteners used is a big factor too.
No it doesn't mean it can't handle some boost, but anything north of say 450 hp I'd start to cringe if you run the engine hard. Two bolt mains and cast cranks aren't exactly boosting material. Also the fasteners used is a big factor too.
ok thanks for that bit of info... the headers and some other stuff are ARP bolts.. but 450hp sounds like fun... I really need to get another car for this stuff i want to do. something light, like a 98 Camaro or something... then put something nasty into that...
hey fast. since you are going with the revised firing order, why not use mopar roller lifters from the magnum series(cant remember if their roller).as a writeup i read some time ago that pro stock guys would put mopar lifters in a chevy block that allowed them to run a much more aggressive ramp rate and take some side load away from lifter. you might even be able to offset bore the camshaft bore to allow for a larger cam core diameter to help absorb torsional stress of driving the oil pump (cam twist and subsequent inaccurate cam timing at high rpm) and to allow for more camshaft"resolution"(couldnt think of a better way to say it.) the second idea was from an endurance engine i took apart about 5 years ago. also the notebook that we had went with the engine. it used a 6 inch rod, 3.85 crank and a sleeved .060" overbore high nickle 350 bowtie block. milled it to allow the liners to interlock, also had dowl pinned the mains , basically slightly oversizing the non threaded portion at the top of the main bolt holes to accept a hollow spacer to prevent walk ,then main studs and a girdle. are you after sustained high rpm, or are you just after "out of the hole". not sure what to offer in terms of info. gots lots of "useless stuff" in here
holy crap i just readback and saw about your hand! anything permanent? good to go?
Well guys, I made a few videos today. Taking forever to upload them on my new Photobucket.com account.
I tried a 0-60 run from a stop, but it was pointless. I couldn't make it out of the hole for anything. Mind you this is with 3.08 posi and 295/50/R17s.
Here is my 20 punch and some highway run. The 55-70 mph passing acceleration was about 3/4 throttle.
sounds like quite the beast on a tbi setup... that tq looks pretty low down in the rpm... cant wait till you get er done man... really wanting some video of that... 
