TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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What is the advantages of converting the stock single snorkle air filter to and open elment ai filter? I know you will have more air available with the filter being exposed 360 degrees around, but all it will be pulling in is hot air from the engine compartment. I know how to change over to the open element system, and I am thinking about change my air filter system, I'm just not sure which is better? Or is there something else that I can be done to the air filter system that is better and still reasonably cheap?
Thanks,
- Justin
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__________________
Justin (IROC-Z Racing)
"Carolina Country is where I wanna be.
From the Blue Ridge down to OBX."
Last edited by IROC-Z_Racing; 02-09-2008 at 11:30 AM.
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this has been discussed(and argued about) a hundred billion times, and about 50 billion or so are linked in the stickies.
the short and sweet:
I don't have any numbers to give you, but the temp difference between the stock setup and the open element doesn't ever seem to be enough to negate the increase in air(though not necessarily power) that you'll get from going open element. most people notice an increase, some don't. some notice more power gains than others. it really depends on what condition the engine is in.
there are a handful of cold air or ram air setups you can do (personally i prefer the homemade tpi/tbi blend) and they're noted in the stickies, but honestly, if I had to do it again I'd probably just go open element. it's easy, it's cheap, and frankly you won't see enough of a gain to worry about anything other than those two benefits.
it's also a space saver, which depending on how often you tear into the engine can be the most helpful thing of all. having to pull apart the ram air setup every time I had to change a belt or a sensor or do a tuneup was a little annoying. nothing I couldn't deal with, but it would've been nice to just not have to worry about it at all.
Last edited by FreeLoader; 02-09-2008 at 08:31 PM.
yeah, i hate having to take aprt that stupid snorkel everytime I'm getting into my engine, which pretty regularly, just simple upgrades or maintence. I thought it wouldn't be a problem to convert to and open element, just make the car inhale easier, that's all. thanks for the input.
i have a cowl hood so i have the stock air housing but its modified, with a taller truck filter, the inside is cut out bigger caus i have a powercharger on it, and i have the flow through top. I deffinately felt a nice power increase when i changed over from the stock setup.
I just finished my install of the open element air filter, and I've got to say, WOW!!!!!!!!! I didn't think that there would be much of a change in power, if it could even be noticed, but DANG! I took off in 1st gear normally, and I thought I was going to squeal the tires. Samething in 2nd, not even trying to floor it! Phenomenal gains here! With a little 93oct fuel, this 305 has got some quick kick to it now!
I love this forum with all its custom fabrication, quick fixes and cheap upgrades with stock engine equipment! Thanks guys!
Here's a pic of the new air cleaner:
One note, if you notice under the left side of the filter, there is an exposed sensor, the IAT sensor, I believe it's called. No place to put it underneath the filter, like the stock version. Is there was way that I can mount that and it be safe exposed like that, or should I put a small filter around that, or what? Just wondering if you guys had any experience with better performance with it mounted somewhere else and how did you mount it. (i.e. with a filter around it, left the tip exposed, etc.) Thanks.
People say it helps to relocate the IAT sensor to a cool place in the engine bay. No, it should be fine without a filter. It doesent suck in air or anything, it is just like a thermometer.
What I have never understood, is how do you get the sensor out of the stock aircleaner? I usually unplug mine, and just leave it in the aircleaner because it appears to be manufactured into the base.
__________________ -Adam
1990 Firebird Formula
Bone Stock 305TBI, T5 tranny, 62k Origional
UMI subframe Connectors
What I have never understood, is how do you get the sensor out of the stock aircleaner? I usually unplug mine, and just leave it in the aircleaner because it appears to be manufactured into the base.
If you look inside the filter base, you'll see the little silver sleeve that surrounds the sensor's tip. Now look at the picture below. Look and you'll see 3 openings on the side of the sleeve with little tabs that bend inward. Take a tiny flat head screwdriver and push the tabs out. The 2 tabs that are side by side on the side that looks like it joins together should stay pulled out while you get the 3rd, single, tab pushed out. The sensor should now just pull out underneath. To get the sleeve out of the cleaner, just take a pair of needle nose pliers and squeeze the 2 sides that have a tab that sticks outward keep you from just pulling the sleeve downward. Squeeze them together and it should push right out. Be careful not to squeeze to hard and smash it.
I just finished my install of the open element air filter, and I've got to say, WOW!!!!!!!!! I didn't think that there would be much of a change in power, if it could even be noticed, but DANG! I took off in 1st gear normally, and I thought I was going to squeal the tires. Samething in 2nd, not even trying to floor it! Phenomenal gains here! With a little 93oct fuel, this 305 has got some quick kick to it now!
I love this forum with all its custom fabrication, quick fixes and cheap upgrades with stock engine equipment! Thanks guys!
Here's a pic of the new air cleaner:
One note, if you notice under the left side of the filter, there is an exposed sensor, the IAT sensor, I believe it's called. No place to put it underneath the filter, like the stock version. Is there was way that I can mount that and it be safe exposed like that, or should I put a small filter around that, or what? Just wondering if you guys had any experience with better performance with it mounted somewhere else and how did you mount it. (i.e. with a filter around it, left the tip exposed, etc.) Thanks.
I deffinately agree here!!!
i bought the same Mr Gasket air cleaner from a local performance store, and put'er on this morning. DAYUM is all I have to say about it.
Before when getting on the gas, my car would hesitate a little, then get up to speed.
After swapping the new air cleaner in, its just pedal to the metal and I'm gone!
I without a doubt reccomend this air cleaner, its a non drop base, it fits the stock stud perfectly, and is just a great product.
two notes though, dont forget to plug the vaccum line going from the TBI to the air cleaner, i just used a small screw and some electrical tape.
and as far as the IAT sensor goes, all I did was tuck it behind the big plastic covered wire harness along the firewall on the passenger side. The location works just fine in my case.
--Also, regarding the IAT sensor removal from the air cleaner... all mine was, was a pretty much screw-in sensor, just took a socket and wrench and came right out without any issues.
After I installed mine I noticed a slight increase in throttle response as well as a welcome sucking noise coming from the engine bay as well as a slight deepening of the exhaust note. As for the air temp sensor you can simply use your Dremel and cut a hole to stuff it in there and you're good to go. I plan on using my Ram Air hood to finish if off once I get the car painted.
I will be putting an open element on my car this coming week,one thing I'm wondering is to where have you guys relocated your coil?
If you look for the Mr Gasket 14" non-drop air cleaner then you wont have any clearance issues what so ever.
I have plenty of room between my stock coil and the bottom of the air cleaner.
and BTW, if you look in my pic I posted, you can see where I located the IAT sensor. Its just above the air cleaner on the pasenger side along the firewall.
If you look for the Mr Gasket 14" non-drop air cleaner then you wont have any clearance issues what so ever.
I have plenty of room between my stock coil and the bottom of the air cleaner.
and BTW, if you look in my pic I posted, you can see where I located the IAT sensor. Its just above the air cleaner on the pasenger side along the firewall.
would you like me to show you pictures so you get an idea of what it would exactly look like along with clearences? You may have to buy new air filter gaskest that go around the ring around your TBI unit as they may tear and peel like mine did. Cost like 3.99 at the parts store
too dark here now to take pictures so ill get to it tommrow. But yeah everything fits great, you just have to hook up you PCV Valve up under the open element with the neck they give you, just use rubber hosing. Ill find my k&n box too so you can grab the same filter if ud like. Its the biggest you can go and still have an inch or less of hood clearence.
I almost forgot, if you buy a non drop base, you'll need a longer stud, which you can make. Or you can buy a stud extender. I made mine, but if you call Jegs, they will help you find it.
Don't worry about relocating the stock coil, just go to the Accel one. 40,000 volts or something like that. Word of advice, don't pull the coil wire off while the engine is running!!! It doesn't tickle.
I have the edlebrock open elemenet and i have to say it definately woke the engine up some more... It definately has more response and get up.....It easily pulls through all the revs now as before it used to fall on its face at about 3500..Now i get up to govenor at 106 easily...
__________________ 1989 Chevy Camaro RS
V8 305 TBI
IROC-Z 17" Rims
FlowMaster 3" Cat Back Exhaust
Magnaflow Hi-Flow Cat
*New Installs*
*Edlebrock Open Element 14" by 3"
*K&N Air Filter 14"x3"
*TBICHIPS.com Stage 1 Chip
Here are some pics of my open element that i just installed along with a small video to let you hear the difference... Edlebrock base from autozone with a K &N 14X3 Air filter Click on the first one to watch the video
This is my setup from 2 years ago. I just recently changed from the 14x3 to 14x2. I have the K&N filter and K&N filter top as well.
I am going from stock intake to tbi performer bored to 50mm and installing a 7.4L tbi base
(among a ton of other mods) which required and adapter thus, increasing the height of the air cleaner.
I noticed a little gain with my drop air cleaner on my tbi K1500 truck with a 4.3 v-6.Along with most of the ultimate tbi mods the biggest thing I noticed was better mileage.Anybody else paid attention/noticed better mpg`s from this.
Do you think the K&N X-Stream top is worth getting? I've heard mixed results that since it's almost touching the top of the hood it really doesn't do anything.
Do you think the K&N X-Stream top is worth getting? I've heard mixed results that since it's almost touching the top of the hood it really doesn't do anything.
You're right about the top almost touching the hood, but in my opinion it is still allowing a certain amount of airflow in through the top. Anytime we can gain even the slightest bit more of airflow the better! The only way to test it would be to dyno it with and without. It will only be a small gain, but if we do a few small things under the hood they all add up.
I was told by CFM-Tech to run without the air cleaner and datalog and then replace the air cleaner and repeat the logging. This would tell if the air cleaner is holding back or the TBI unit. Basically, measuring vacuum/measuring MAP sensor readings.
I made my own open element out of two air cleaner lids. One stock one for the base and a truck lid for the top. It cost me all of $2.50. I have since gone to a cut up L69 lid which in my opinion looks freaking awsome.
__________________
305 tbi, Ultimate TBI mods, March UD pullies and Brackets, Proform Electric WP, ACDELCO EP241 Fuel Pump, TNT Spacer, Inj Pod Spacer, Gasket matched and 2" Bored Edelbrock tbi intake, Xtremefi AFPR, Gasket matched and Ceramic Coated 2055's, Hooker 3" Aerochamber catback, LS1 Aluminum driveshaft, Homemade Open element, Comp 1.6 roller tip rockers, Edelbrock STB, Tubular LCA's & Panhard bar, E.S. Bushings, UMI LCARB's, Wonderbar, Eibach Pro-kit Springs, MSD 8.5 wires, MSD 6A Ignition Box, MSD blaster coil, A/C & Smog delete, Excessive weight reduction (2860lbs), GM 3.42 gears, Moser 26 spline axles, Powertrax noslip locker, Summit diff cover, TH700R4 transgo shift kit, Corvette servo, Permacool tranny cooler, Sonnax TV Spring kit, Aluminum Drums, Nitto NT555R Drag Radials, EBL and Zeitronix ZT-2 for the tuning.
Future plans are a Edelbrock RPM intake, 46mm Xtremefi TBI, ZZ4 cam, Ported ZZ4 heads and an EDGE 3200 stall going in after I learn how to tune.
I looked at a M*stang forum ( I know I'm sorry ) and they did a dyno with/without and apparently a regular lid is better because some air could go out the top of the x-Stream lid? and they also said it was almost touching the hood too so idk it was a m*stang and you can't trust them lol maybe thats why.
I am thinking about change my air filter system, I'm just not sure which is better? Or is there something else that I can be done to the air filter system that is better and still reasonably cheap?
Thanks,
- Justin
Thought id share my experience on this one with everyone. I purchased a 1991 RS TBI 5.0 Camaro. It had the factory air cleaner setup on it when i got the car. about a month after having the Camaro i purchased a genearic open element air cleaner for it. I want to say it was 28.99 or something close to that and a 12 dollar filter. it was a 3" tall filter. Right of the bat i noticed a defnitly increase in accelration. When the motor was cold it would preform great. Only draw back to this that i did notice is once the motr was hot, If i punched the gas, the trans would kick down like it should, and the motor would bog down a slight bit before wanting to take off. That seemd to be the draw back of the open element. Even with that draw back it did seem to be an improvement over the factory setup. Now last week i took it a step further, and installed the TPI "Y" air cleaner box and ran it into the TBI. This has not changed the off the line take off that i can notice. It still seems to accelrate about the same but it did 100% fix the problem with the motor boging down when you punched it hard. It compleatly got rid of the prblem for me. now when you punch it, the trans down shifts, and motor instantly starts pushing harder, no hessistation any more. cant say wither or not i'm getting more power, but its just a bit better preformace with the elimitation of the hessistation. it did cost about 100 bucks to do it all. not sure it was entirely worth it but now on the high way or even at lower speeds the motor responds alot faster to the demand of heavy or wide open throttle.
Parts used,
Stock Z28 TPI "Y" airbox with daul filters. 30.00 form parts car
one 11 inch long peace of 3 inch dia. PVC. 2.99 from Lowes.
one 3 in to 3 in PVC tubing conector ( rubbe sleev with 2 clamps built on it) 5.00 from Lowes.
I had to use a 4inch to 3 inch reducer boot to mate up the PVC tubing to the Bonnet inlet. one 4 inch to 3 inch rubber reducer with 2 clamps included 12.00 at Pep boys.
1 TBI/Carb bonnet. It has a 4 inch inlet opening. simple and easey to install. 58.99 from Pep boys. Installs in the same mannor as a open element or factory air cleaner. To use the facotry thread rod and wing nut, simply remove the spacer ring the factory air cleaner sits on. takes about 10 to 20 secodns to install.
Two facotry air filters for any 85-92 Z28. about 5.00 to 6.00 dollars each for fram or STP brand filters at most auto parts stores.
just over 100 bucks.
The PVC is a tempory solution. I'm most likely going to go to the exaust shop and get a peace of 3 inch dia. tubing to use and wrap it with exaust manifold thermal wrap as the perment solution. so far using the PVC its not flexing or cracked as far as i can see. the system works great, and it eliminated the Very LOUD sucking noise that is heard when at Wide open throttle with the open element style. It took me about an hour to install this because i have a 84 Z28 hood, as they did not use the "Y" filter box until 85, i had to cut out notches in my hood. Any factory RS or Z28 hood is made to fit the Z28 air box even ifit dint come with it factory as long as your car or hood was made 85 or newer, I think.. I konw my old stock 91 RS hood had the factory notches in the bracing for it. If not for having to cut out some bracing on my old 84 hood, the instal would have only taken about 20 minutes. Just thought i'd throw this out there.
-Randy-
Last edited by randy111; 11-10-2008 at 02:27 PM.
Reason: **
I have learned two things about this yesterday. First is not all of the Factory TPI "Y" air cleaner setups have a spot in them for the IAT sensor. This is what i was told. I can not say for sure or not. I have seen six of them and all that i seen had the IAT sensor mounted in the driver side of the "Y" filter box. That being said. make sure when you purchase your factory TPI "Y" air cleaner box it has the threaded hole on one side for the IAT sensor.
Since the IAT sensor for the TBI would not thread into the new spot, and the wires were no were near long enough to reach up to the air cleaner box, I went down to autozone, bought a new IAT sensor, I purchased one for the 1992 V6 3.1 liter camaro model. reason for this is its the same bird cage style sensor our TBI's had, but its ment to be threaded into one of these boxes. it has the same plug connector our IAT uses so it will work perfectly.
Next step should take no more than 20 minutes and very little work. I used a pen torch, solder and heat shrink on all of my wires, if you do not like to solder, simple inline crimp connectors will work just as well. I would advice putting them on, crimping them and then sliping heat shrink over them to prevent mosture from creoding the connections. witch ever way you chouse to go it is very simple easey to do.
The stock "Y" filter box i got off of a parts car has a hole threaded into it on the driver side. In this was a IAT sensor. not knowing if these things go bad over time, I simply went to advance and picked up a new one. I then Cut the factory connector off, leaving a good 1 inch or so of wire to work with on the connector. I got the correct guage wire, some heat shrink, pen torch and some solder to lenthen the wires. after soldering the two longer peaces of wire to reach all the way to the "Y" filter box i reatached the conector i cut off prevously that plugs into the IAT, used solder and heat shrink on this as well. I then put some small wire loom around the wires to protect them, i used small zip ties to attach the new wire in 3 spots to prevent exces movent and keep it from touching anyting that may melt it. I threaded the IAT sensor in, attached the newly lenthend connector and away i went. Took about 10 minutes total to do. dose not require using solder. Good wire connectors will work as well, i just konw how to solder adn its just as easey to me so i did it that way. Previous to attaching the IAT sensor to the "Y" air box, i had it simply laying back behind the TBI. after attaching it to the "Y" air box where it was tapped and threaded for it, I nothiced No change in preformance. Granted i have only been driving around for about 2 weeks with this thing not in and mesureing the actuly air temp going into the intake. it was maesureing ambient air temp in the engine bay.
I never threw any MIL lights or codes. i checked every other day for codes and not one poped up. so the computer seems to like the new setup. it got about the same fuel milage out of my last tank as well. about 20.3 mpg. i normly get 19 to 21 mpg avrage depending on where all ihave to drive that week. so fuel milage appears to be unchanged on the first tank. I really dint think it would tho, i was simply tring to find a way to feed the motor cooler air so it woud stop boging down on me, and it seems to have worked to fix this issue.
So far the PVC tubing seems to be working perfectly. I havehad NO issues with it what so ever thus far. No cracks I took it off yesterday and inspected it. It seems to be holding up just fine.
I will post the part number for the bonnet later today when i get a change to go to lunch. as far as the reducer, its simpy a 4" to 3" reducer. it will be right along side wherer you get the bonnet. If you have worries about using the PVC, Pet-boys sells the flex ducting for this type of appication. they sell 4" and 3" as well. It comes with the flex tubing, and two rubber sleeves to attach it. You will need buy your own clamps tho. Only reason i did not go with this is because its 28 or 29 dollars for the flexable ducting, and the PVC and clamp both combind only cost me like 7 or 8 bucks. so i did it that way.
The vacume line. stil not 100% on what that thing is for.. I simpy plugged it. have not noticed any ill effects from doing this yet. car runs great. happy i made the swap on it.
Last edited by randy111; 11-17-2008 at 01:05 PM.
Reason: *
Here is a start to my custom CAI. (Alaska has the benifit of being a little on the cold side!) I will be cutting a 3 1/4" hole to get the filter tucked behind the bumper then box it in somehow. intake.jpg
Here is a start to my custom CAI. (Alaska has the benifit of being a little on the cold side!) I will be cutting a 3 1/4" hole to get the filter tucked behind the bumper then box it in somehow. Attachment 167140
Should get that Caddy TBI hat and make that cold air look right lol. Just so weird, like eating rice and hamburgers at the same time.
Justin (IROC-Z Racing) 
) and they did a dyno with/without and apparently a regular lid is better because some air could go out the top of the x-Stream lid? and they also said it was almost touching the hood too so idk it was a m*stang and you can't trust them lol maybe thats why. 
