TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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Anybody besides me here had people make fun of their RS Camaro's? It gets really old where I live, and I get that crap at least once a month, sometimes a lot more. "Rally Sh*t, Rally Slow, Really Slow, Retarded/Stupid... the list goes on, I've heard them all.
RS's fall short of Z28's, obviously, but most of RS's I see are 305's, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but that LO3 is very similar to the LB9 and L69 305 Iroc-z motor (bottom end), the only big difference is the fuel system. Heads? Cam? What's different other than that?
So if you could convert a TBI to TPI, you could almost consider it an Iroc-z engine...?
That doesn't seem like much to laugh about.
So what sets the two motors apart?
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HP is different too. The TBI didn't put out as much horse as the TPI. Of course the TBI's had their advantage on the top end compared to the TPI, but not by a lot.
Just drop a 350 SBC in there, or maybe an LTX or LSX then blow them away, and they won't be making fun of you anymore.
Anybody besides me here had people make fun of their RS Camaro's? It gets really old where I live, and I get that crap at least once a month, sometimes a lot more. "Rally Sh*t, Rally Slow, Really Slow, Retarded/Stupid... the list goes on, I've heard them all.
RS's fall short of Z28's, obviously, but most of RS's I see are 305's, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but that LO3 is very similar to the LB9 and L69 305 Iroc-z motor (bottom end), the only big difference is the fuel system. Heads? Cam? What's different other than that?
So if you could convert a TBI to TPI, you could almost consider it an Iroc-z engine...?
That doesn't seem like much to laugh about.
So what sets the two motors apart?
This used to happen to me alot, people think if its not top of the line its not fast. WHile the 305tbi didnt come close to the performance of the 350 in Irocs its still a god engine that you can make pretty quick. Or you could do what i did and just swap in a 350. Im still keeping TBI cause i like my car to be different from the next, but a nice 350, some 3.45s or 3.73s and people will not be telling you your car is "real slow" anymore. It wont break speed records but it will be noticably quicker.
ppl are suprised to find out mine is an RS. they are like you just put rs badges on there to trick ppl..im like no its an RS. it doesnt really matter, its your car and if you are happy with it. screw everyone else. I know my RS will beat stock 3rd gen iroc's and z28's so screw em!
i rember meeting a guy at my college and he called it racing seriers. it was compleatly striped out with a mildly built 355. he was telling me how he used to race people saying its a 305 TBi for 40 buck and people will be hella mad when they lost.
and just like he told me a engine dosent care what embelm is on the front of tghe car.
do like I did. find a totaled Iroc. grab the exterior stuff and dress it like an Iroc. spank a few mustangs and t/a's and camaro's but when ur done and they claim it's cause it's an iroc open ur hood show the TBI and then the RS still on the dash.
when I get my ship cut and the couple other things I am doin next month I will be about untouchable in my town. the norm here is a cold air + a muffler + a chip and it is HIGHLY modified.
word. what dont they make fun of? crapstains (censored) slopars? or rice rockets? I mean seriously? are u sure it's just not u they are makeing fun of?
My 91 RS has 3 different colors in the body panels, no grille, no front lower spoiler, and paint so bad your shirt is red if you rub up against it.
It also has a fresh LO5 (350 TBI), custom tube (EBL), SLP headers, 3" exhaust, 100% overhauled suspension, and a 3.42 posi rear end with 285 tires. It's faster than my bone stock 91 Z28 L98/G92 car.
yea i made fun of mopar because my auto shop teacher had a cuda and a corrnet and he whould rag on everyone. when my car on the lift he whould say thats the only way a chevy whould get its front wheels off the ground.
yea they are bad ***, but hell we whould rag on everything
I honestly hear this **** from my fathers friend who just got a thirdgen rustang and hes telling me he'll beat my rally sh*t any day. I just try to ignore it but i'm looking towards doing some work to my 305 l03 I found some good things online to help me full 300hp from the flywheel, so it'll drop alot to the rwhp but hell i could claim it has alot. im just looking more for tq thank hp anyways. i like the feeling :P haha i love my camy anyways!
ford= found on russin dump But yea ppl make fun of my car cause its auto then they see how fast it downshifts and how fast it pulls on their brand new 6spd car or w/e their driving. I also get made fun of cause its a 305 but i dont care, at least it runs(well ran)
word. what dont they make fun of? crapstains (censored) slopars? or rice rockets? I mean seriously? are u sure it's just not u they are makeing fun of?
No, it's not me, thank you very much, I have a very good group of friends, and I have no enemies. I guess anyone in high school with a Camaro takes sh*t for it, my buddy has a white '92 RS, and he gets the same as I do.
First day I drove it to school, some dirt bag thought it'd be funny to take a key to it. I never found out who that was, and that's probably a very good thing for whoever did it.
Your gas guage will also hate you, and your wallet. 3.42 is as high as I'll ever go.
Depending on your trans....
The 700s have such a high first gear that using a 4.10 makes the car bang 1-2 it feels like you sat and spun first gear. Driving habits are going to affect mpg more than anything.
The problem with the RS (and Formula TBIs like mine) is the restrictive exhaust, intake and 2.73 gears. Go get a 4th gen rear with 3.42s, 3" exhaust and open element air cleaner or cold air and you should be keeping up with the stock Z-28s. The 305 to 350 hp difference is nominal stock at most 20-25 hp.
Get into tuning and you can optimize you combo.
Now that I got my 350 in, I'm glad that I got a 5.0 TBI car. One, I know that the car was not beat on, hopefully, cause it had a weak motor. Two, it still looks like a 305. I would have keep the 305 if the crank was good.
I still argue that a 100hp NOS kit is still the best bang for the buck since it is on demand. Hopefully I get mine tuned in more since I got at best right now 13 mpg. But again, that comes most from driving habit. Sure is hard not to go WOT.
I've seen LO3 5spd run pretty quick with a 100 shot and some 3.42's (well almost in the 13's). If I had an RS that would prolly be the way I would go, gears and juice always equal cheap speed. I had a 78 Malibu two tone tan with white walls, a 76 truck 350, holly carb, a 150 shot, and junkyard pulled 3.73's. I used to destroy 5.0's, 4.6's mod motor stangs, even a few Ls1 cars with that thing. So yea, juice and gears are what ever RS needs lol.
i had a 89 5 speed rs camaro with a built 350w/tbi i never knew what the Hp was but I could smoke a cobra anyday of the week. people in 4th gen Z's and mustang cobras would ask to race and then laugh at my rs but when that light turned green they stopped laughing real fast. i even out run a SLP SS. but a lady that didnt know a stop sign means stop took my car from me. but thats ok, now I have a 91 black Z that i'm working on. (instant face lift part 2)
__________________ Mick THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT 1973 ford truck is in memory of my old man. He bought it in hopes of fixing it up one day but that day never came. So here's to you dad I hope you like it. 3-20-1954 to 6-3-2006
Nope, never have that, apart from in online forums.
In forums people tend to compare numbers rather then actual driveability.
To be honest, I never expected to purchase my current car. I started off looking for a rotary engined car, saw a trans am which I took for a test drive, found that compared to my previous rotary the driving feeling was very enjoyable. I really liked the car geometry and it's handling. The big downside on the trans am was that the engine was bust and the tranny no good. Looking on the car lot I found my current RS (for half the price of the trans am) and tried it as well.
The RS comes nowhere near the power to weight ratio of a stock rotary but I was surprised to find it have a lot of things working for the car as well.
I do not live in the united states but in germany.
Over here everyone drives golf gti, mercedes slk or bmw m3. Those cars are found on every street corner (my daily walk to work, about 1 mile, I walk past 2-3 slk's, 1 m3, maybe 2-3 audi rs and at least 2 porsches).
No one even knows the differences in various camaros. My '89 RS actually attracts a larger crowd then the audi R8 does (parked next to one while getting groceries last week. I forgot to mention I walk past one on my evening walks with my dog).
I don't doubt some of the cars listed above are quicker then my RS. No surprise there. They are considerably newer with new technology and part of them with more power as well.
I only have this car for 4 weeks now and am completely new to US cars.
Still, from a newbies point of view the camaro RS has quite a few merits as has the 305 ci. LO3 engine.
With a few low budget mods a lot can be gained from this little engine.
With a few suspension mods, a set of decent brakes and a better set of front seats this car can be made into a nicely driveable car.
Another benefit of the RS is that compared to Z28 or IROC camaro's the RS camaro's are often in better shape. Prices for Z28 and IROC camaros in germany are currently at (equivalent) USD $ 12000-15000, even in pretty bad shape. The RS cost me (only) USD $ 5500. Most of the IROC's I've seen have leaking targa tops, worn off interior and transmissions which just refuse to work.
The RS on the other hand responds crisp and quick, shifts up and down without hesitation and the engine sounds very positive.
Driving an RS in germany is not bad at all. My biggest grudge is that those darn VW golf and BMW Z3 drivers keep challenging me at every single stoplight. I chose to ignore them even though I still have to find a single golf which is quicker then the camaro RS.
(these quick VW golf exist but they do not provoke stoplight challenges)
Welcome to TGO! That is how these cars are-they grow on you in a sneaky way when you are not a fan at first. One thing with American cars like yours is they can be improved with a huge supply of aftermarket parts and services as they are popular here. It may not be as cheap if you are in Germany though.
A set of rear lights costs $1100,- in germany. (found that out only because I need to replace the driver side rear light)
Fortunately UPS ships overseas as well and with ebay and forums like this one I think I can get my hands on some aftermarket parts for acceptable prices.
I already read a lot of tech articles on this forum and found out that TBI mods (open airfilter) and an exhaust (headers to tips inkl. 3" cat) as well as replacing the stock 2.72 (?) driving gear for a 3.42 one are budget options I can chose to make without failing emissions test or having the car pulled off the road.
One big issue in germany is getting a set of wheels on the car.
US wheels are not allowed without a material strength test which costs $7500 (out of my own pocket) plus an extra set of wheels which will be destroyed in the testing process.
(there is one trick though. Drive with an 'illegal' set of wheels, they look standard on the car anyways, and for the technical check fit the allowed ugly german aluminum wheels you kept in your garage)
The above goes for an open air filter as well btw.
Slopars aren't that bad. I was in the 99 t/a ws6 I used to have and I was talking to this guy and he was bragging about how bad his new Challenger was with all the mods blah, blah, blah, I told him to shut up and line up. He got waxed. Bad. He didn't even come back to where we were all hanging out. Old Mopars may be bad but new one SUUUUUUUCCKKK
Very interesting about the wheels. At like the Silver State in Nevada they have to run a certain wheels rated for the class and speed they will be running- kind of tells us about their safety importance.
Yeah there was a new Challenger at last years Muscle car race it was not all that impressive but who knows about the driver. They do make power but the cars are heavy or what? The LS1 cars sure seem faster here. Maybe in a few years they will get better.
ford - fuked on race day
chevrolet - cracked heads every valve rattles oil leaks engine ticks
pontiac - its a lil racist (poor old _____ thinks its a cadillac)
id actually prefer an RS. my SC (Sport Coupe) came with a 305. previous owner put a 350 TBI in and im guessing it wuld run mid high 14's maybe. got a 305 carburated in with a stock rear end and a 700r4 and for some reason its running mid to low 14's?? that seems pretty quick for a stock 305 out of a van and stock crappy 2.73 with an open diff. someday soon ill be gettin a posi with 3.42, maybe 3.73 depending on what ind of deal i can get. maybe ill be in the high 13's??
__________________ 358 block, rpm perofrmer heads, rpm air gap intake, comp cam 275 (maybe), 1.6 comp silver lifters, edelbrock 600 carb, mallory dizzy, 150 shot NOS, rebuilt 350 turbo, B&M megashifter, 3.23 gears and more looking to be in by january. shooting for 400-450 hp without NOS. tired of seeing that antifreeze green mustang trying to be a badass around town.
Personally it's only a Camaro, who cares if it's an Iroc-z, RS, SS, RSSS.
Even the 4th gens have been out long enough that unless you want a stock car something has been done to it.
I have an 89 RS with a 305 TBI, and an older T-5 so I'm sure that's just going to break. 1/4 times, because the trans needs rebuilt now, the first time the car was at the track it was best 16.2 worst 17 something cause it didn't want to go in gear.
I don't remeber my best time to date, and really couldn't tell you 1/4 anyway. But off of 1/8 times I think I am just under a 16 sec 1/4 mile.
I bought my car for the sole purpose of drag racing it. I have no intention of making it a drag only car, but that is what it was bought for. It is nothing more then a toy to me.
All that being said I am still debating a 383 or 454 bored and stroked to whatever I can get away with.
But until I get the car built, I'm happy with my 16 sec 1/4 miles. Because I have my car to drive down the track. I know when I dump the clutch the car jumps and throws me back in the seat. Well maybe not really really throw me back. But you get the idea.
If you are that worried about what other people think sell your car and buy something that will move, or build what you have. Or be happy with your car the way it is.
It's not about what myself or anyone else thinks of your car. It's what you think.
The biggest issues the RS has isn't the 305. Actually the biggest issue any TBI car has is the fuel injection system and the bare bones supporting hardware they come with.
LT1s are so cheap now its no contest to find one and drop it in. Even better at the 5.3 LS series engines that are getting yanked out of everything for cheap. These make as much as the LT1 stock, but way more bolt-on potential.
The biggest issues the RS has isn't the 305. Actually the biggest issue any TBI car has is the fuel injection system and the bare bones supporting hardware they come with.
LT1s are so cheap now its no contest to find one and drop it in. Even better at the 5.3 LS series engines that are getting yanked out of everything for cheap. These make as much as the LT1 stock, but way more bolt-on potential.
That is a very ignorant statement to make. In fact you made TWO of them.
This is a 9.5:1 compression 350 TBI build. Stock bore, Flattop Pistons, out of the box Dart Iron Eagle 180cc heads, GM Production LT4 Corvette roller cam, 1.6:1 full roller rockers, Edelbrock 3704 intake bored to 2", 2" bore GM Marine TBI with 61# injectors @ 28 psi, and stock exhaust manifolds with high flow cat and magnaflow single in/dual out muffler. This was in my 1983 G20 Van backed to a 4L60E. Running the stock 1993-1995 PCM with tuning. All factory accessories were installed and running. The 2nd, higher dyno was after installing JBA shorty headers and retuning. I later put Doug Thorley Tri-Y headers on this same engine and it made more torque across the whole RPM range.
dude people have been talkin crap to my girl who recently got an RS. They tell her its a piece of crap and so on. The other day a guy with a 4th gen trans am was talkin crap while exhaust was being put on and the guy doing the work laughed then lowed the car and started it. Bet his *** will never speak badly of it again.
I figured
One big issue in germany is getting a set of wheels on the car.
US wheels are not allowed without a material strength test which costs $7500 (out of my own pocket) plus an extra set of wheels which will be destroyed in the testing process.
(there is one trick though. Drive with an 'illegal' set of wheels, they look standard on the car anyways, and for the technical check fit the allowed ugly german aluminum wheels you kept in your garage)
The above goes for an open air filter as well btw.
Another trick is to get BMW wheels... most of the 5 lugs fit on our car and look very nice.
That is a very ignorant statement to make. In fact you made TWO of them.
This is a 9.5:1 compression 350 TBI build. Stock bore, Flattop Pistons, out of the box Dart Iron Eagle 180cc heads, GM Production LT4 Corvette roller cam, 1.6:1 full roller rockers, Edelbrock 3704 intake bored to 2", 2" bore GM Marine TBI with 61# injectors @ 28 psi, and stock exhaust manifolds with high flow cat and magnaflow single in/dual out muffler. This was in my 1983 G20 Van backed to a 4L60E. Running the stock 1993-1995 PCM with tuning. All factory accessories were installed and running. The 2nd, higher dyno was after installing JBA shorty headers and retuning. I later put Doug Thorley Tri-Y headers on this same engine and it made more torque across the whole RPM range.
Its not ignorant. 5.3L LS engines are going for $400 on average right now. I've seen running engines go for $300 at times. The PCM is pretty much stand alone as is, so a harness isn't hard. Small cam, cold air, and cat-back and its going to make as much power with better economy, and far more potential.
Full on LT1/4l60e's can be found for under 1,000 right now.
I like the way a 91/92 RS looks. Really, I do. But I'd never mod the TBI engine beyond a cat-back and cold air.
Going from L98 to LT1 cost me $400, and this takes into account SELLING a knocking L98 long block.
And my LT1 came with a pre-done harness, 55k mile engine, 4L60E, extra set of aluminum heads and an uninstalled Hot-cam. With my headers and hot-cam I'll be making that much power, and more torque and wont' have to sacrifice fuel economy at all.
So no, its not ignorant at all. Its a different path that for many makes more sense than putting money into an aging fuel injection system.
Several years ago I made out like a bandit for the money.
Its not ignorant. 5.3L LS engines are going for $400 on average right now. I've seen running engines go for $300 at times. The PCM is pretty much stand alone as is, so a harness isn't hard. Small cam, cold air, and cat-back and its going to make as much power with better economy, and far more potential.
Full on LT1/4l60e's can be found for under 1,000 right now.
I like the way a 91/92 RS looks. Really, I do. But I'd never mod the TBI engine beyond a cat-back and cold air.
Going from L98 to LT1 cost me $400, and this takes into account SELLING a knocking L98 long block.
And my LT1 came with a pre-done harness, 55k mile engine, 4L60E, extra set of aluminum heads and an uninstalled Hot-cam. With my headers and hot-cam I'll be making that much power, and more torque and wont' have to sacrifice fuel economy at all.
So no, its not ignorant at all. Its a different path that for many makes more sense than putting money into an aging fuel injection system.
Several years ago I made out like a bandit for the money.
Ignorant was saying the TBI was the downfall of the RS.. IT IS NOT... It is also saying the 5.3 has more potential than the LT1, it does not. The 5.3 might get a touch better fuel economy, but not much. A TBI will closely match it along with a PFI small block. I was able to dial in a TBI setup enough to get 19-20 mpg on the highway doing 70 mph in a fullsize van.
Also, keep telling yourself you are going to make more torque than that. That is a fullsize van with a 2 piece driveshaft, 3 u-joints, mechanical cooling fan, and a GM semi floating corporate 14 bolt rear end on a Mustang Dyno. It was running lean around 2,500 rpm, which is the dip.. A few corrections to the calibration and it made over 320 RWTQ.
Ignorant was saying the TBI was the downfall of the RS.. IT IS NOT... It is also saying the 5.3 has more potential than the LT1, it does not. The 5.3 might get a touch better fuel economy, but not much. A TBI will closely match it along with a PFI small block..
Also, keep telling yourself you are going to make more torque than that. That is a fullsize van with a 2 piece driveshaft, 3 u-joints, mechanical cooling fan, and a GM semi floating corporate 14 bolt rear end on a Mustang Dyno. It was running lean around 2,500 rpm, which is the dip.. A few corrections to the calibration and it made over 320 RWTQ.
the 5.3 does have more potential. Higher flowing heads, 12* I believe too. More mid-range from a longer runner intake that flow as well as the LT1 intake. PCM wise they are about the same being both SFI systems.
The Gen 3 and up small blocks are what happens when GM started fresh rather than kept modding an aging platform.
the 5.3 does have more potential. Higher flowing heads, 12* I believe too. More mid-range from a longer runner intake that flow as well as the LT1 intake. PCM wise they are about the same being both SFI systems.
The Gen 3 and up small blocks are what happens when GM started fresh rather than kept modding an aging platform.
Starting fresh does have its benifits, but not when it comes to the 292 and 323. I have been around the Gen3 in trucks and they are dogs, even tuned. The L31 will rip up a LM7 with even mods. Higher flowing heads...than what...a typical small block? I can make a set of vortecs flow 265 cfm @ .500" lift and keep great .050" flow numbers. I worked on a smallblock 400 that had 215cc port Dart Iron Eagle heads and the intake flow was over 300 cfm @ .600" lift. I was able to make 725 HP out of it. It will NOT have more mid-range than a LT1, it is short on cubes. Low-end is no comparison, GEN II will blow it away. In addition, I would not build a GenI or GenII LT1 with less than 396 CID these days. The 3.875" stroke cranks with matching rotating assemblies are coming down in price and work very nicely.
350 Crate Vortec motor, carbed, with a 150 shot of juice, nobody has any questions!(330hp/380TQ, before juice).
That same engine with a LT4 Hotcam, Beehive Springs, 1.6:1 full roller rockers, 1 5/8" primary long tube headers, performer RPM air gap, and a Quick Fuel 750 made 401 HP and 428 ft/lbs of torque. That is with the relatively low 9.4:1 compression. I would have installed a rubber embossed steel shim head gasket, bringing the compression 1/2 point higher, and getting the quench closer to .040". I think the 1/2 point of compression and the correct quench distance would have increase the power output by 15 ft/lbs across the WHOLE torque curve. That means atleast 20 hp at peak and more at higher rpms.
My stock 75,000 mile L31 with its measly 191/196 @ .050" duration cam, tiny 1 7/8" exit exhaust manifolds, restrictive head pipe design, restrictive stock CSFI setup, and a tune that could be more aggressive pulls my 6,000 lbs Express conversion van around like it is nothing. It has run a 16.1 @ 83 mph 1/4 mile spinning its way to a 2.55s 60'. It has a 3.42 open rear end and only 235/75/R15 tires. At one point in time, I have driven it practically on the speed limiter, in OD for over 1 hour. Never missed a beat!
People say "it's only a RS" or "it's a 305 car" to me all the time...but little do they know I own a Police interceptor (special service package B4C)....not only that...I have so many mods I couldn't even list them all....I usually get crap from the fourth gen guys...but little do they know this little RS runs 12's.....LOVE MY CAMARO!!!!!!!!!
__________________ "Wide open 'till you see GOD, then brake!!"
'91 Camaro RS B4C Police Special Service Package
350 4-bolt, 10:0 w/moly rings, Holley Stealth Ram (ported), BBK 58mm, MSD ignition, Procomp heads 2.02 1.60 200cc (63hrs. port work), 30# venom injectors, Flowtech headers, full custom 3.5" mandrell ceramic exhaust w/ aerochamber, Comp cam XFI280HR (.576/.571 234/244), PCMforLESS.com tune, 58mm BBK, Custom TPI air lid, Custom RamAir, 1.6 stainless steel rollers, Custom 700-r4 2500 stall, Aluminum Drive line, 3.23 posi, Moser axles w/stud girdle cover, Spring works springs (lowered), UMI relocation brackets, panhard, LCAs, sub-frame connector, boxed A-arms, Poly bushings, Custom interior, Powdercoated & polished IROC wheels, Custom "Black Cherry" Paint", 4pt. roll bar, +++ more! "It's not the tires squealing, it the asphault SCREAMING!!"
Let us not forget the RS fraternal twin, the 1988 Camaro Sport Coupe. Same thing with the exception of the bottom color of the car versus the RS solid body color. Oh yea, and that "aero wing" thing that came on most 1988's at first.
im just looking more for tq thank hp anyways. i like the feeling :P haha i love my camy anyways! 
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