JucinGTA

Since you didnt get a new battery, alteast hook the battery charger up to it while you try to start it. You did state that if ran fine for a few minutes, so this isnt really a thought but like the other guy said make sure your not a 180 degrees off.

84 Z-28 350

try the ignition swich

8Mike9

Slow cranking, what can be the cause?

Tight engine.
Advanced timing
Low volatge
bad components.

Tight engine.

Is this a fresh engine? Just rebuilt? If so, pull the plugs, see if the starter can spin it.

Don't try to spin it with the HB bolt, you may break it off and cause other problems, but pull the inspection cover off the tranny (assuming a 700R4) and use a flywheel turner, see if she spins freely.

Advanced timing.

Disconnect the coil wire to the cap, does it spin better now? If so, begin retarding the base timing (EST disconnected) until she spins well.

Low voltage.

You have a meter, put it across the battery while someone crannks the engine over, what does the voltage read?

What's the voltage read from the POS connection on the solenoid to ground when idle and when cranking it over?

Bad component.

You've ruled out the starter and solenoid, by replacing with new...correct? So, then it must be poor cable, or poor cable connection. the only :wiring harness" connections that I know of that can cause an engine to spin slowly, would be the positive cable/connection or negative cable/connection. Both can be "bypassed" with a set of jumper cables.

Biggest ***-biter is a ground connection..IIRC the ground connects to the Alt bracket on my '89....even if that connection is good, it doesn't ensure a good ground...the path to ground is through the bracket to the block...so in order to get a good ground, the block surface should be shiny and clean, prior to putting the bracket on.

Good luck.

91bluemetalicRS

yep rebuilt motor, brand new battery, battery cables, when alarm was in it cranked up fine untill after it ran for a while a few weeks ago and then ran out of gas. I filled it up with gas and slow to no cranking. When it did crank the alarm would activate and shut it off. Disconnected alarm soldered factory connections and now slow crank for about half a second then lights start flickering and voltage drops to zero. Maybe a bad ground inside from alarm disconnect is what I was thinking but checked and rechecked and nothing. Here in the next few weeks I am back on a normal monday through friday shift at work and hopefully I will have more time to mess with the car. As of now I only get one day to play with it. So I was hoping for some of your advise to think about until I get to check it out. I am going to try and get some pics up this week so you guys see what I see kinda thing but if anyone else has any input I appreciate it.

My90Iroc

You said you ran out of gas. Did you check the fuel pump and make sure you didn't toast it? Not sure that this would relate to your current problem, but something to keep in mind. I've heard of fuel pumps dying after people have ran out of gas since the fuel lubricates and cools them, so with no gas you end up smoking them. Just a heads up.

Damon

First off, let's take some of the mystery out of this mess.....

Here's how your starting system works:

Pos. cable from the battery goes to the starter
Negative cable goes to the block.
ALL voltage the related to the starter physically turning over the engine (doing the grunt work) goes through those two cables.

The starter wire that gets this whole process in motion comes from your ignition switch, through the VATS system, the park/neutral safety switch and then down to the starter solenoid. All this wire does is supply 12V to the starter solenoid to activate the starter.

So how does a solenoid work? It is an electromagnet that moves a plunger inside it's housing that throws out the spur gear to engage with the flywheel AND it also throws a switch at the same time that sends full battery power from the + battery cable to the starter motor to begin cranking.

As long as you get the starter solenoid to go "click" the ingition switch, VATS system and park/neutral switch have all done their job and can be ruled out. Likewise, ground straps can be ruled out as well since they would only prevent those systems from operating, not prevent the starter itself from recieving full battery voltage. Remember: if it goes "click" all of the control systems have done their job, you've narrowed it down to the "high amp" side of the system- the stuff that actually does the heavy mechanical work.

You have starter that is too weak to get the job done, a battery that is too weak to get the job done, the battery cables are bad/too small/shorting out (melted against a header tube?) not well connected at their termination points or the laws of physics have stoped working under your hood.

I suspect that the little 305 starter is over-taxed to flip over the tight new 350 engine.

TomP

Wow, you guys threw out a lot of ideas; here's mine, not sure if it's covered...

Why trace the car's wiring at this point? Attack the starter directly. Buy a remote starter switch. Connect it between the B+ terminal of the solenoid and your positive battery terminal, and give the switch a press. If your engine cranks over super fast, then it's a problem with the car wiring controlling the solenoid.

If the starter acts like it has (very slow), then it's the starter, or it's power supply (battery cables).

You can also do this test on the ground, with jumper cables, and the starter switch. Hook the neg jump cable to the frame of the starter motor. Hook the pos jump cable to the big terminal on the solenoid. Clip one end of the remote switch to the B+ solenoid terminal, and the other to the big solenoid terminal. Hook the jumps up to your battery. Put your boot on the starter (so it doesn't jump away from ya) and press the remote switch.

Snowdog 91 Formula

This also reminds me of when I first did my motor swap. Just out of curiousity, are you using a gear drive instead of a double roller timing chain?
The reason I am asking is that when I first did my swap, the engine was wayyyyyy toooooo tight with the gear drive and I killed the starter and 3 batteries.
I finally took a friends advice and put in a double roller timing chain when the cam was swapped out.
I also changed to a high performance starter.
Once I did those two things, the engine turned right over.
-----
Are you using the TBI chip on a TPI engine?
-----
VATS might still be an issue if you are getting no fuel / no start / no ECM.

I hope this helps.

91bluemetalicRS

Push button starter is already on the way and I think this will work. About the tight engine, yes it is a double roller chain and timing is pretty close but still a little off. Starter is not for a 305 but for a 91 z28 w/350. When I swapped motors I bought a new starter for the motor I was putting in. I swear everything under the hood is brand new. I have about 4 grand in the motor now and I still can't drive it "YET".

As damon put it, the laws of physics don't apply to this damn thing, belive me. I don't have any melted pinched or burned wires and connections are all tight. I will not be defeated and one day I will be driving this whenever I want to. Just a matter of time now.

8Mike9

I should also mention one more area of concern, being that he engine is fresh...did you paint the surface that contacts the starter?

91bluemetalicRS

yep but I scraped off all paint before installing the starter the first time around, and now that I think about it, does the yellow wire that is under the steering wheel hook up to the purple wire that goes to the small starter post or does it hook up to a fusible link?

If only the digital camera was here?????

Snowdog 91 Formula

It's like this:
There is a pink wire coming from the ignition switch to the starter enable relay.
There is another wire coming out of the relay that is either dark green or tan with a white stripe.
That in turn is wired to your gear selector switch.
I did submit that picture, did you look at it?
I sincerely give up.

The purple wire, by the way is past the gear selector switch.

It goes like this:

Red wire to ignition
Pink or Yellow Wire from other side of ignition switch to starter enable relay.
Black with yellow striped wire connected to VATS. (connected to starter enable relay)
Dark Green wire (or Tan with white stripe) runs from relay to gear selector switch.
Purple wire runs to starter solenoid.
Black (+) wire runs to red (+) wire.

Slow89Iroc-Z

Did you check the clearance between the starter gear and the flexplate? Some aftermarkert starters need to be shimmed in order to get this clearence correct. If the starter gear is too tight it will turn over slowly or not at all. Also do you have an amp meter.......while cranking the motor over check the current draw on the battery...it should be aroung 150AMPS. If its drawing more than this the starter is bad or the gear mesh is off. This could be also killing your battery and causing the low voltage. What brand of starter is it????

91bluemetalicRS

looked over pick but can't tell what colors are listed. laptops monitor is too small. I checked my helms manuall a few minutes ago to see what wires I am going to bypass when installing the push button starter and noticed yellow hooks up with purple eventually. If starter cranks like it supposed to the problems will be pinpointed....Won't know till friday though. I sure hope to get this thing running again. I couldn't stop grinning when it fired up last time. I guess we all go through this crap at least once or twice with our cars. Oh bout the 100 bucks I am a man of my word, when car starts I declare a winner. Thanks for everyones help:hail:

snowdog I feel ya I give up too. I swear I have pulled out my hair, cussed it, spit at it, kicked it, but I still try and try again. My car is like a special child in the family you just accept it. I think I may be that special child at this point but you get the point. Thanks for your input dog.

Snowdog 91 Formula

I can't make the image show up or a lot of people will complain...
Sorry about that. I will send it to you Email and you can print it out.

Bluebird

read post titled "starting problem"
posted by me february of 2001
ion this board, ,The solution to my
problem was a bad starter. and I had the starter tested at Autozone twice and both times they said it was good. but turned out it was shorted out, ,but still will read OK.. Im no expert.. it's just an idea.. read that post maybe some of the responses in it will help ya!

Mark

jester111

hey 91
Isnt it funny how many replies a hundred bucks generate
You may have two problems with regaurd to the starter and engine light coming on.
I think first things first get it started. Since electricity flows neg to pos, You dont have 4.5v going to the starter you have 4.5v coming form the starter. I know you said the starter is new but with electrical components, new may be for 1/10 th of a second. The low voltage and slow cranking will be one of three things bad ground connection or possibly two of the armature winding are shorted together which will only take less then a second to happen, or a bad battery. Dont use the battery to start it, if you have access to a good charger( not a trickle) use it until you solve your problem. When you try starting have someone or yourself go aroung and check the temp. of the wires going to the starter( be carefull they may be hot real hot). If you get the starter to turn at all, then rule out any of the other connection ie. ign. switch, netrual safetly,etc. all they do is ground the solonoid.
ONE more thing we can also be all wrong, it could be something so stupid and infront of your eyes, and those are the ones that take forever to find because we dont think of it.
Probably the best thing to do also is make a list and repeat your steps.
hope this helps somewhat!

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

maybe the wiring that associated with the ignition switch??? That would be related to your alarm right?...seeing how it probably has a security measure to stop the car from being started without the key.

That might sound totally stupid, but just a novice observation.:lala:

Damon

I wish I had included something about starter mesh in my last post. That could cause slow turning. Dammit!

Anyways, I'll stick by my comment that "if the starter solenoid goes "click" you're problem is in the high amp side of the system" or, as stated above, you have mechanical binding somewhere- starter to flywheel, inside the engine, whatever.

How do I know this? Because when the solenoid goes "click" the starter spur gear is fully engaged on the flywheel and the positive battery cable is directly connected to the starter motor. It's all up to the battery, battery cables and starter at that point.

It's possible, I suppose, that one of the wires (fusible links) that takes power FROM the starter's positive battery connection to power the rest of the car's systems could be shorting out to ground when the key is turned to the start position and therefore, stealing amperage from the starter, but that would be weird as all-get-out.

TomP

Woah woah woah; I think you misunderstood my message! I didn't want you to wire in a push button starter; it's a testing tool. It's a handheld switch with two alligator clips coming from a 6 foot wire, and costs $10 at an auto store. Don't go rewiring the whole car if you don't have to!! Just clip the remote starting switch (remote as in, "not inside the car but under the hood") to the terminals I mentioned, and give the button a push while you're by the engine.

Don't complicate things! Don't go bypassing factory harness wires or cutting out circuits! Just clip the remote start switch to the starter! It takes a trip to the local parts store and back, and 5 minutes under the hood, and you know the deal...

I mean if you want to rewire the whole car, be my guest, but what if that doesn't solve the problem?

This procedure will also confirm Damon's message; if your starter still is barely turning, your wiring from the ignition switch to the starter is fine. We eliminate that with this $10 remote start switch (and no re-wiring!!), so that leaves either (A) the starter or (B) the power to the starter.

91bluemetalicRS

no no no The push button starter is temporary of course. If it cranks up I will know which wire is screwing me. BELIVE me I don't like rigging $hit up in my car unless its only to test a theory.
The yellow wire under steering wheel is the wire I think might be a contributing factor to my dilema like gunny and one other guy said.

I was reading back over this post almost everyone says starter, battery, battery cables, or ground straps. If this all checks out is there any other thing that could be causing this?

TomP

(whew) Okay, cool; my friend had a pushbutton start in the Camaro he bought, the patch job was horrible, and we couldn't figure out why it was done, or why he had cruise control parts under the hood but no cruise on the column. I figured out that something must've happened with VATS, and whoever owned the car before, swapped columns and put the damn pushbutton in.

Snowdog 91 Formula

Has this guy fixed his problem?

jasonbennett

replace your fusible links. those are wicked nasty little things when they go bad.

91bluemetalicRS

Well I had good intentions this weekend to finish it up but, my buddy suckered me into to going to the track to see our friends 10 sec 69 camaro on my only day off this week... I am hoping I get more time this weekend to mess around and get it running. There is a lot of good info in this post and I hope everyones advice helps. After seeing other third gens go 12's and a few in the 11's I am more excited than ever to see what my baby will do when I get it running! Someone wish me luck

Riley's35089rs+

good luck

91bluemetalicRS

alright I think rileys good luck did it. Finally after almost 3 months of swapping motors I almost done. I got the car started friday....My problem, the stupid yellow wire under the steering column was cut almost all the way through about six inches were it hooked up in the alarm (when it was there). It was hidden in a loom. Anyway once corrected it spun over like it is supposed to. My plugs were fouled from the 24lb injectors quick so I am in the process of putting the 19's back on for now untill I can get a chip burned. Does any one know were I can get a clip to hold in the injectors? One broke in the process and all places around here say "Uhhh whats that thingy???? Tuned what??? Never seen one of those, anyhow you get the idea.

Thanks again for the help.

Riley's35089rs+

Does that mean I get the $100.00......

Greg Kuhlmann

ttt


I couldnt offer any advice but i just want to see if someone is really going to get 100 bucks!?

91bluemetalicRS

no one, besides riley is claiming the cash. I guess it stays with me for now.......

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Send it to me, I am claiming it too.

StngKlr

You could send it my way. I'm closer to ya.

Riley's35089rs+

Use my cut for some new Plugs..

Greg Kuhlmann

so no one gets the 100 bucks or does riley???

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

I got an idea, send the money to Dirk for the board.