I wanna know what tool/tools woke up one morning and decided to design quite possibly the biggest disgrace to american engine building since the 4 banger...what guy was like "lets take 45 cubes away, it'll still be a v8, but it'll be more fuel efficient..." Seriously...I'd like to get my hands around that guys neck...

Well why did you buy one then?

OK, your kidding, right? I'd like to think that with the LT1 cam you'd do better too. Too bad. However, you don't give enough info to really make your point. Things like tranny? gears? intake mods? exhaust? state of tune? traction?, to name a few! I bet theres plenty of L98's not doing much better for a variety of reasons, and yet most would never DARE to rip the 350. I personally own a 85 305 TPI (non-peanut cammed) which , with the usual "free/cheap mods", will run along side my buddys 89 Formula 350 all day, much to his dismay(heh heh). Our cars are evenly "modded", the only real difference being my 3.42 gears vs his 3.27's. Its wrong to label ALL 305's negatavely, just cuz yours is a pooch! Sorry, you've got it coming, and I'm sure plenty guys on here would agree!

You have obviously never driven in a pontiac 301 powered(i think powered is an over statement) car if you think the 305 is the biggest disgrace in american engine building. I had one in my 81 firebird, well its still in it, the car just doesn't move anyomre...... anyway try something like 160 hp. It was rediculous, I hit something and my exhaust half fell off so I just ripped it off and rode along like that until it died. That little POS didnt sound any worse then a mild 350 and that was with open headers. That car couldn't spin the tires in a million years, it was sad, and to think I thought that thing was fast when I first got it..............

I thought the 267 was pretty bad with the 3.48" stroke.

yeah, the 267 was worse. believe it or not, in the late 70's they were working on the 305 with the intentions to eliminate the 350 either all together or in all passenger cars. the 305 isn't that bad, not alot of problems with the design and makes decent power. my question is why it was pushed so hard as the performance engine.

What's the use to complaining about engines of the past? You live and learn. Or at least that's how it's supposed to go. Lot's of friends thought the same when GM introduced the LS1 based engines in the trucks. They all complained those engines were HP based and lacked the torque of the 305 and 350. I'd take the 350 in my old 99 C1500 over a 5.3 anyday. The 305 is a great engine....not really for muscle car use, though.


Brandon

305s aren't that bad. I know a guy with one of those old turbo TAs (not an 89) OMG its terrible. I think its a 301 turbo turd..

There are worse engines. Generally 305s last along time, do decent on gas, and make streetable torque down low...

305's only got a bad reputation because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They got the bad reputation because GM never really put any effort into making it perform well at their factory... there are lots of people on this board running 305's... many in the 13's and a few in the 12's.

Had the 305 been given a chance at all (perfeomance wise) like the 350 was from '67-73 and then with the L98 and up, it would have gotten alot more respect than it did.

Think about it... the '67-69 Camaro Z/28 had a 302... had that engine been a 305 that was built to the hilt with 11:1 compression, factory headers, dual 4bbls, etc etc... it would now have ALOT more respect than it actually does now.

Becuase of the Z/28, the 302 chevy is legendary... if that car was powered by a 305, it would be too.

Just my $.02

if your going to say that 305's are a pos compared to 350's then the 350's are total crap because you could just have a big block in it. All it is cubes folks and there are cars with a lot smaller engines that go a lot faster then whatever the hell it is you drive.

EDIT: btw my l98 is a pos compared to an ls1 im not gonna go and cry about it......you just mod what ya got and if your not happy with that building your own motor isnt THAT expensive. Couple hundred bucks you got a good block....what 1500 for a good rotating assembly put together a nice 383 for your self and your only up to 2 grand with a fully (mind you self) assembled motor. And if ya wanna preach yeah but a head/intake/cam combo is expensive well my l98 aint moving anything past the 14's without all that stuff anyways so dont whine....either stick with what you got or build something better.....power dont come cheap.....so why do people expect it too?

theres too much wrong with this post to go on....

If the 67-69 Z/28's had 305's instead of 302's they would have been useless as race cars. They are completely different engines. The bore/stroke of a 302 is MUCH better than a 305. The 302 is capable of more power. It isn't just that the 305 was at the wrong place at the wrong time; the 305 isn't good for making a lot of horsepower. The bore is small, the stroke is long and the factory's best offering was 225 or 235 horsepower. Looking at the 305 from a high performance standpoint, it doesn't really make sense to use it for such an application.

Yes, i know the 302 is better engine than the 305. That wasn't the point. I only compared the two because of similar displacements. The point was that if the 305 was actually used in a performance car and was built to perform like many 305's owned by people here were, then it would get alot more respect than it actually does now. The 305 is capable of much better than the 150 or 200hp (225 is the highest i've heard) the factory built them with.

I've seen many engines here that could easily have been production engines made by GM that made 300hp or more. No, the 305 can't make as much power as a 302 or a 350, thats simple physics, but IT IS capable of much more power than GM ever made it put out at the factory. There is a Trans Am that I see around town here... looks like about an '83 or '84... I see him run from time to time at the street legal drags. He runs a 4bbl 305, and the only part on it that GM couldn't have put in the car are headers. The cam is actually pretty tame and he runs on 91 pump gas.

He runs low 12s on only motor. No N2O, no huffer.

BTW... i read somewere a few weeks ago that before GM developed the 302 for the original Z/28, they had been considering 2 other motors for it. Both were almost as quick around the track and through the 1/4. They were the 283 and a little bit underbored 307.

The 307 is basically the same as the 305, just a little bigger bore and a little shorter stroke (about 1/2 way between the 305 and 302) and it made just as much power as the competition 302's eventually did at around 460-470hp. The 283 made ~450hp.

I just want the name/names of whos dumbass Idea it was to put out a motor in an Fbody with 190HP.....I just want a name...maybe if I email GM....

or a Z28 with 145hp.

The 305 is crap, plain and simple, it low-reving, low power piece of crap.

the 302 was a great motor, because of the large bore(4.000") and the small stroke (3.000") this combined with a complemetary valvetrain created a motor with high-reving power, what 290-300ish hp @ 5,800 rpm.

my 305 makes 145hp @ 4200rpm.

the 305 has a super small bore and a medium length stroke, it makes no sense. There isn't any logical thinking behind the design of the motor.

I don't care when all you people say that you added a cam and heads to your 305, and it will keep right up with a 350, because its not relavant.

The best performing 305 was what, the 220hp TPI right?

which was still a gutless wonder.

And it actually really never had a purpose.

I doesn't make good high end power,
It hardly makes good low end power
and it doesn't get good gas mileage,

so where on earth was the market for the 305

someone please enlighten me.

Your comapring apples to radishes.

thats like saying, well, the 400 is basically the same as the 350, just alittle bigger bore and a little bigger stroke.

and what do competition 350 block motors make, 500hp streetable

and what, 850hp race motors.

lets see a stroked or bored 305 that makes 850hp NA.

The 305 was never intended for horsepower. It was developed in an era when "horsepower" was a cuss word. World Peace, trees, Mary Jane and Bell Bottoms were all people cared about.

Now you know the rest of the story.

What is this peanut cam, and what years was it used.

"the 302 was a great motor, because of the large bore(4.000") and the small stroke (3.000") this combined with a complemetary valvetrain created a motor with high-reving power, what 290-300ish hp @ 5,800 rpm.

my 305 makes 145hp @ 4200rpm."




Gross horsepower ratings vs. net. That 290 horsepower in 67-69 was made on a dyno with no emissions equipment, no air filter, a velocity stack, no accesories. A 305 from 1983 was calculated with all emissions equipment hooked up and with all accesories such as power steering pump, AIR pump etc....You are comparing apples to oranges. You also fail to mention that that the 69 Z28s had very little to no emissions equipment, much higher compression, a 780cfm holley, and all sorts of the best performance parts GM could think of.

the 305 left the factory with the cheapest parts possible, loaded with emissions equipment, low compression, its purpose was to sell lots of cars at large profit, pass emissions, and equal the competitiors.. You should not be complaining about GM, you should be complaining about the Federal government.

You say that the 305 is crap, but you never took into account this important factor... Did GM ever TRY to make the 305 into anything like the 302? Nope, that wasn't the purpose. No 305 came with forged internals, big cams, and big Holleys, therefore, it never performed like a 302 (that and the bore/stroke ratio). But understand that GM chose the 305 stroke because the crank already existed in the 350!

You want names? I can give you names. The primary culprit was Ed Cole. His accomplice was Zoras Duntov. They are the two people mainly responsible for the 305. They are also the people responsible for the 265, 267, 283, 302, 305, 307, 327, 350, and 400 small blocks. The engine has the same basic design, no matter what the displacement. If you think a 305 runs like an anchor, try a 307. Obviously, you don't remember those.

As for whoever said that the 350 makes 850HP in non-boosted trim, that isn't exactly correct, either. Those engine are 358 CID. I know you're thinking "Big deal". Well, if you do a little homework, you'll find that that "Chevy 350" doesn't have a 4" bore and 3.48 stroke. To make MORE power, NASCAR engine builders started with a SMALLER bore and LONGER stroke - a lot like the 305, eh? That's the same thing the factory does with the 346" LS1 and LS6 engines. Less bore, more stroke. NASCAR engines still don't use a stock bore/stroke - even with the SBC III engines.

And comparing the SBC 305 to a SBC 302 certainly isn't fair. A 302 wouldn't have a prayer of passing smog requirements and making acceptable power. Look at Ford 302s (same bore/stroke). Anyone wanting more power has to do it outside the emissions realm, and has to make a 347 stroker to even get close to an emissions-legal 350. They didn't disappear in 1995 just because they were "old". They just couldn't cut it any more.

The 305 was necessitated by federal exhaust emissions requirements, GM's heavier than average cars, and a need to have the torque required to move those cars while still meeting those requirements. And this was all way before electronic engine controls and injection were available. The 305s have proven themselves to be an efficient, durable, and adequate powerplant. Properly built, the 450HP mark in a streetable engine is not out of the question. It may not be as economically feasible as the same work for a 350, but it can be done. Write me some checks and I'll prove it.

The big problem with most 305s is the heads and cam that the factory delivered with them. Stop whining and fix it already. Or, if you want that 450HP 305, just start sending those checks. I'll be able to do it for less than one of the NASCAR engines, for sure.

GM built the 305 to be a good emissions street performer, not a high revving race motor. It has a large stroke to build lots of low end torque and RV style cams to build even more. Because everybody and there mother knows that on the street torque is the winner. And the guy with the most torque has the most fun. Meaning fast acceleration and lots of torque are nice when you can only go 45.

Wanna know about reliable 305s? my '86 Z28's gave me 215,000 trouble free miles (and I was its 3rd owner) cost to rebuid? $980 with an RV cam and already has 11,000 STILL trouble free miles... My '87 Z28's 305 has 257,000 also trouble free miles (I'm the 2nd owner) and STILL going strong... I guess it's all on the maintainance and care of your cars... why so many miles you ask? I used commute a total of 130 miles a day...
BTW I always got an average of 18 to 22 miles per gallon from both z28s

I had a 68 Chevelle with a 307....you ain't kiddin about it being an anchor!!

Yeah.....just hang on for another year. My "dismay" indeed!!
LOL

Vader is correct about the engine development, it all started as the 265CI in the Mid-Fifty as Chevolet's FIRST V-8. All later V-8's owe there disign to that date and all the other variations of the SBC. So E-mail them, most if not all of the first design team are DEAD.

Posted in error.

Hey, if you don't like the engine you have get another. Vader listed 9 other Chevy V8s that can power your car. If you have an engine that breathes through a straw and one that breathes through a 3" pipe, no question which will be better no matter what the displacement.

That was the 60's, not the late 70's

fuel crisis and smog laws... thats my take on why it was made

The highest stock HP LB9 is 230. The highest rated F-body L98 was 15hp more, with "45 more cubes". There are plenty N/A 305's that are well into the 13's, about a dozen poweradder's in the 12's and handful in the 11's. All are street driven. All are under 15lbs if they are boosted. Many people give away 305 shortblocks for free, which can in most cases can net you a pretty stout motor for the cost of a L98. I think your arguement is a weak one..

I said developed, not actually PUT into vehicles.

Besides, I was alive then. I had to listen to my mom ALL THE TIME talking about that stuff. :sillylol:

Anyway.....

Don't think you have to limit yourself to combos that GM made either. That's the wonderful thing about the large journal small blocks (other than the "larger" journal 400). You can use a 3" crank, a 3.1" crank, a 3.25" crank, or a 3.48" crank in any of the Gen I blocks with the larger journal mains. You just have to make sure they have the same type of rear main seal that the block's designed for.

Even then you can still put a 2 pc seal crank in a 1pc seal block with the right adapter, etc.

For instance, take a 1 pc seal 350 block, put a 3.1" crank out of a 4.3 V8 (1994 Caprices IIRC), bore the block .030" over and build a 316. Or a 400 block .030" over with a 327 crank and spacers (3.25" stroke) to build a 353.

The options are endless.

Well I kinda like the little ole small block. Mine has 175,000 well traveled miles, due to a cooling problem runs about 240-260 degrees, and I kis you not will pull to about 6000 rpms. All this while starting every time I hit the key purrs like a kiten, and gets between 21-23 mpg (depending upon the weight of my foot).

I have a garage full of misc. pull off parts, with a few more to get and I should make decent power. It is my belief that with this meltingpot of parts LT1, 416 heads, a complete exhaust upgrade, and the ususal array of bolt ons and other mods, I should be able to run down stock LT1's.

Not bad for an engine that is C.I. challenged.
Scoty

To "cubfanbudman": The 85' TPI's used the "L69" cam which was nearly equal to the "L98" roller cam that came later in the 350's. The "peanut cam" was a lower lift/duration cam that was used from 1986 on to de-tune all 305 AUTO's by 25 HP, down to 190 hp,which further hurt their reputation. Even the "roller cam" 305 auto's got a weak cam compared to the 5-speed versions, for some absurd reason! From the factory, 305 output got as high as 230 hp, with dual cat option on the 5-speeds ONLY, the auto's got as high as 215-220hp, again for some absurd "corporate" B.S. reason.

To Mooose: yeah, the TPIS base, with porting will help, now I'll HAFTA do more! Also, your 307 was an "anchor", much to YOUR dismay!

my 305 went mid 14s at 94ish all day, with only a cat-back, with 115k on the clock, and i got 20+ mpg to and from the track. pretty damn good if you ask me. i cant waint to see what she can do with all the new goodies

I don't know. With a couple of bolt-ons I beat a 99+ Mustang GT on the street. Easily. Granted many of my friends think it pulls way to hard to be stock. I really have no idea if it is. Not internally anyway.

305 isn't the best engine. But its not to bad either. Still I can't wait for the day I purchase a 383. Which after checking my stock options isn't to far off.

Actually, Chevrolet had a V-8 engine as early as 1919, but the public wasn't buying it. It also had some lubrication and valve problems, and by the time it was all ironed out, the inline 6's were doing almost as well for power production. Henry Ford introduced his "first" V-8 in 1929 or thereabouts. He tried to advertise it as a "first", just like many Ford fans try to believe that Henry made the first mass-produced cars. Everyone conveniently forgets about Robert E. Olds doing it two years BEFORE Henry got his start in mass-production. Historical perceptions tend to get really distorted as time progresses.

Then it must not be stock! I gaurantee you, a stock or even a with a couple small bolt-ons, an LB9 will not touch a 99+ GT. I used to own a 2000 GT and have drive a few LB9 cars...and there's no way! Not that I'm trying to start anything. So...you gotta have some pretty good toys under the hood or he didn't know how to drive.

There's some dude on this board with a 335 stroker on his 87 Z only pulling 230-240rwhp. That's getting close to 99+ GT arena. I'm not overly impressed with those #'s.

BtW, I dusted a 97 Z28 in my Stang a few years ago. Young boy didn't have a chance. Should've been a close one, but it wasn't! He had a LT-1=more torque and a little more HP but didn't know how to drive.

Brandon

What do the 99+ GT's pull, about 220 rwhp on average. Big whoop. It doesn't take much for an LB9 to surpass that mark. I think BorlaZ06 put down 209 rwhp with his stock LB9 on the dyno. His only modification was a borla catback. Everything else being stock. 305's are great engines and have a lot more potential than people give them credit for.

I like mine

Isnt that the whole point? As slow as the 305's were the 350's still only made mid 245 hp and as far as im concerned a 14.5 in the 1/4 mile isnt really all that fast. None of these cars were blazing performers out of the factory but that doesnt mean you dont see third gens running 11's on the street. To go fast in any f bod it takes some major modding to get you there.

220-235. But noone has a stock GT.

Look, let's keep this in perspective. We're dealing with 20+ year old tech. YOU can design it taking advantage of newer tech and learned lessons. Just do it!
If Ford can make a 3.4 (207 ci) V8 pull 230+ HP, then we can certainly attain much higher numbers than the production motors made. (OK, ok Vader, read:Yamaha)
Heads baby, gimmie heads (for these damn motors)!

305's are great for mild applications. I get over 20 MPG in mine and after doing some mods, it's a pretty potent little sucka. Like it's been said a million times before, heads and cam will do a wonder for these engines. I am sadly, not really, going to ditch my 305 and put a 396 BB in. There really isn't any replacement for displacement.

No misconceptions there. If Yamaha can build a little engine for Ford that makes 230HP with no torque and all RPM, the same treatment can be applied to a larger displacement engine with similar percentage gains. The Yamaha 209 makes about 1.1HP per cubic inch at some practically unattainable RPM, so on a level playing field, a 305 should be good for about 335 HP. We know that is not impossible. A 396 should make 435 HP, and the factory was selling 425HP 396s back in the '60s.

Heads, cam, balance, and the supporting cast of components are what's needed.

ok, i say, it dosent matter, run juice, and if it blows up, go down to te local pick and pull and grab another for 100 bucks. ......... they wer cheap when gm made them, there still cheap in the j-yard

back to reality, there is an articol called my gen camaro. talks about doing little to big changes to these motors, their draw backs etc. http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/projectbuild/48198/

the 350 they should of built




91 LB9 MK6..flowmaster, k&n, the egr walls ground down..a small bump in FP and me driving the piss out of it....
14.1@almost 97

pretty close to them GT's eh?



if the 305 was such a terd why was it made for almost 30 years?...unless your using a single plane manifold and some radical cam and carb..then the 305 will nip at the 350's heels...

Thanks for the link, pretty interesting. I personally would NEVER spend that amount of $ on a 305 just to get it to 13's. Spend that much on a bigger motor and man do you have a fast car.

I'll agree with ya' on that one, to a point...

Keep in mind all that money wasn't spent on motor only. They re-habbed the interior, added new gears w/ posi, TQ, new paint job, headers, exhaust system, and they included ALL the little stuff that you never consider. Like belt(s), hoses, starter, battery, etc.

They did spend a crazy amount on a 305 though, THEN thought "maybe we should try a 350 "

Agreed

Yea that was in 2nd gear mind you. If it was in 3rd, those numbers would be around 250rwhp. 2nd gear isn't going to show as much horsepower and torque since its not a 1:1 ratio like 3rd. Reason why I couldn't make a full run in 3rd is because at 130mph my tire's were rippling (sp?) on the dyno and I had to shut down. They're not rated for speeds that high.

Look at my torque #'s. Thats with the exhaust closed (3rd gear) AND I missed the torque peak. In 2nd gear, I gained 8rwtq by opening the cutout. If I could make a run with the cutout open in 3rd, that would probably be around 360rwtq. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

Keep in mind I still have - Stock heads, Stock plenum, runners, base, stock PROM, stock transmission, and stock fuel regulator. This motor is all bottom end. I can get ALOT more out of it.

Just some food for thought.