Ok, I've got a 1989 305 V8 TBI SBC firebird. I'm looking at replacing my timing chain and gears with a Cloyes set. I'm trying to figure out what I need. I'm guessing I need a true roller, but I'm not sure. Do I need a Cloyes True Roller Timing Chain or a Cloyes Street True Roller Timing Chain Set? I'm trying to figure out which one I need. Here are some part numbers that I've found: Cloyes Street True Roller Timing Chain Sets 9-1145 - Chevy Small Block, 4.3L V6 w/Factory Roller Cam 1985-Up. Cloyes True Roller Timing Chain 9-3145 - SB-Chevy, 4.3L V6, 1985-up with Factory Roller Cam I believe that I have read on the internet that those chains are also used for V8's, though I don't know why they have a V6 listed in the description. Which one do I need for my stock 1989 305 V8 TBI SBC engine? Is my cam a roller? And do you know if those timing sets come with a Roller Cam Button and Wear Plate? Do I need that also? Below is a pic: Now, all I need is a Felpro part number for the timing cover gasket. Do I also have to replace the oil pan gasket when I change the timing cover gasket to a Felpro?

it says SBC and 90* v60 because it's the same thing. you need one ot the other. there is no reason you have to have a true roller. either would be a good chain for you.

What is the difference between the Cloyes True Roller Timing Chain and the Cloyes Street True Roller Timing Chain?

And do I need to get a Roller Cam Button and Wear Plate?

Your factory roller cam has a turned shoulder on the front journal and a thrust plate bolted to the front of the case to retain the cam. You don't need a "button" or anything else unles you find that your retainer plate is abnormally worn.

The 3145 is a 3-way crank sprocket, steel crank sprocket, cast cam sprocket, with a double row (RC35-2) true roller bushing chain.

If you really want a roller chain instead of a silent chain, I'd suggest checking the GM 12371043, Miloden 15015, or this one: http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...=1952&pid=8915

Yeah, I know you talked about a silent chain being stonger than a double row. You said it was made by Morse, I looked on the net for it, but I couldn't find it. So I decided to get a Cloyes, and read stuff about true roller lasting longer than a regular chain. And I couldn't find out if my 1989 305 V8 TBI SBC came from the factory with a roller cam or not, so I figured that I would play it safe and go ahead and get a true roller. Vader, can you clear this up for me? Is my cam a factory roller, or a flat tappet style? How come you suggest the GM one, Miloden 15015, and that other one over the cloyes? Oh yeah, you say that a single row is stronger than a double row, right?

Is there alot of difference between a roller chain and a silent chain? I know you advised that I should get a silent chain, but I couldn't find one, if you can, post a part number. How come you choose a silent chain over a true roller? Will a silent chain work good on a factory roller cam?

Of the ones that you listed, which one would you pick? I don't know those brands, but I guess the GM one, I can't go wrong?

JW,

I mentioned that the Morse/Link Belt silnet chains were stronger, not necessarily any better for the application. They do tend to wear the sprockets faster, however. Then again, this is less of a problem with ductile iron sprockets than teh nylon toothed factory sprockets.

A double row roller chain (RC35-2) is weaker, but lighter. A chain with fully bushed rollers will last longer before it stretches or wears the sprockets.

The really good way to go is with a single roller chain. They are usually fully bushed, use a much larger link (RC60) and are both strong and long lasting. They are also heavier, like the link Belt silent chains.

For a typical street application, any of those should work fine and provide long service. Just avoid the plain double row roller sets that don't use free-rolling chain bushings.

For your '89, you'll need a set to match your factory roller cam drive and cam retention plate.

Thanks Vader, I'll go with GM 12371043. I say that set is matched for my factory roller cam right?

Here is the info on the GM 12371043 that I found.

This special performance single roller design timing chain kit can be used on all 1987 and newer small block engines with roller lifter camshaft, except LT1, LT4, and 1997 and later LS1. This kit is quieter than the double roller chain. This kit includes the following components: camshaft sprocket P/N 12552129, crankshaft sprocket P/N 14088784, chain P/N 14088783, retainer P/N 10168501, retainer P/N 10088128, three bolts P/N 9424877, and two bolts P/N 14093637. Use these components for single service requirements. They will not work on flat tappet camshafts.

Also, I will be replacing my valve stem seals to Felpro. Would it be a good idea to replace my springs since I will also be replacing my timing chain? Or should my springs still be fine?

It neve hurts to change valve springs. Stock springs are fairly weak as it is, and seldom get better with mileage. Are you planning a cam swap, too? If so, what are the specs?

No, I didn't really plan on a cam swap. I am right now just doing a Major Tune-up and thought that it would be a good idea to replace the timing chain set, and then I found some cheap new stock springs and thought it might be good to get those while I do the valve seals. I say getting new stock springs would be OK, right? Should I shoot for OEM or aftermarket? Here's a link for some aftermarket ones on ebay and here.

I will get the GM 12371043 timing chain. Is that timing chain set to match my factory roller cam drive and cam retention plate as you said it would haft to be?

bump.

i wouldn't use gm springs if they were free

What do you think about this roller timing set. GM part number 12371043. Here's a website that has it for sell, www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=887&pid=1858. Do you think that it is a good roller timing chain?

Also, I emailed a seller on eBay about the springs that they were selling. Here is the ebay link. And below is what the seller responded:

Hi!
Yes, our website is www.engnbldr.com Please understand that there are
perhaps 4 actual makers of valve springs on the entire planet, only one in
the USA now, unfortunately. NONE of them have a house "brand". They take
orders, and fill boxes, same product, just the box is different.
To get costs even lower, some like us buy direct in plain boxes, several
thousand at a time.
Then we repackage to "brands"... In our case, our maker is American Wire,
they are in Australia. Yes, American owned. ..

Australia supplies close to 75% of the USA market for performance and
replacement valve springs.

So Yep! Crower, Crane, Comp Cams, pick one. None of them make valve
springs, they make boxes..! All are Australian made.

So do we, ours are brown...*LOL**..

*Usually I don't tell folks all this, but you asked a couple of times, so it
is obvious you are curious.
On the oil shields, we never use them because of the 11 grams of mass, we
simply use a positive oil seal Yes, we stock the retainers, I supply the
spings because they do fit the stock retainers, which are excellent.
But we do supply upgrade 18 gram retainers for $26 a set added, in 1.250" OD
dropin fit.
Thanks, Please feel free to email if you have any more questions, this is
the "Engnbldr" technical service address.
Ted(engnbldr)
www.engnbldr.com

So it seems that the springs sold here in america are made by the same company. So that would make the GM, comp, crane, etc. springs all the same. So when you order your comp springs, they are probably the same ones that GM sells. What do you think about this?

And what spring specs does my stock 1989 cam need? I have seen that the stock springs have a seat pressure of 85# and that that is not good. So what open/closed # spring is needed for my cam? I've figured the 85# closed pressure is too low. So what is just right? And what is TOO much spring pressure for my cam? I don't wanna go too high of a spring pressure.

Looking at this link:
www.competitionproducts.com/page25.html, what spring on there would be good for my stock 1989 cam? I was looking at getting part #98214. But do I need to get something better like part #98212?

The reason why I'm not looking at Comp or Crane is because I don't think I need $150 springs for my stock 1989 305 engine. Am I wrong? The highest rpm's that my car sees is 2,000. So it seems that my car would do just fine with the GM springs. Now I'm not gonna go with the part #98111, cause as I've read that the spring pressure is too low. So, what do you think?

I wouldn't use a GM tining set either... think about it. Why are you replacing the one you've already got in the first place? Its long-term wear-free perfect longevity and rugged reliability? I don't think so. So why would you put the same thing back into it?

You don't need $150 springs. But when you put real springs in it, you have to trash the factory's stooopid dysfunctional "rotator" dead weight off of the exhaust valves, which requires shimming those up. Go to your local machine shop and get .100" of shims (a .060", a .030", and a .015" will work fine) to go under the exhaust springs. You do however need to get the retainers and keepers to match the springs you get, no matter what springs you buy.

I'd suggest the Comp 3136 timing set; Comp 981 springs and their associated hardware; and the FelPro positive valve guide seals since you'll already be right there.

There are alot of spring mfrs out there. The guy is partially right: Comp doesn't make their own. If you go there or to Lunati (I used to live in Memphis, and did some contract work for Comp, so I pretty much know what they do and don't have; and I didn't work for Lunati, but I've been there a time or 2 as well) you won't see a spring winding machine. But he's very worng in other ways. They both get them made to their specs, out of the material they specify, heat treated the way they want them, tested to whatever level of consistency, etc. etc. No doubt the same is true of Crane and Isky and so forth. It's not like they all just call up some Acme Spring Corp. in Australia, which is the only company in the world that makes springs, and buy the same springs everybody else does. That's typical laughable eBay ad copy.

I have no idea what Competition Products does for springs. But I can tell you, if you buy a cam from Comp and use Comp springs, they'll warranty the cam if it fails; if you buy a cam from Lunati and use their springs, they'll stand behind theirs; but if you buy one of their cams and use some non-cam-mfr's springs, they will not warranty the cam, no matter whose springs they are or what the guy on eBay put in his ad copy. There are some things that it just isn't worth shaving pennies off of the cost, because of the potential for disaster. It's literally a matter of moving hundred-dollar bills out of the way to pick up dimes.

So I need a double roller instead of a singe one? If I went with a double roller, will my cover and everything work fine? And if I go that route, I'll probably go with Cloyes since I see eveyone thinks they're the best. Does Comp have any spring kits or anything for my application? Since you guys got me worried, I'll probably just go for the higher end stuff just for piece of mind.

How come you suggest the 981 instead of the 941? Is the 941 too much? And what is a "rotator"? Is it the oil shields or something? And should I get screwed or pinned studs since I'm going with higher pressure rated springs?

I'll probably go with comp for piece of mind. You guys get me worried.

This is how I came up with $150 for the springs. 981 springs = $60, retainers = $60. So that right now is $120. If I get the shims, that'll be another $25. And I'm still looking for the right locks which will be even more. Do I need a 7* or 10* locks?

On the Felpro, the positive is on the intake and the umbrella is on the exhaust, right? Can I put on a positive on the exhaust? If I dump the oil shields, can I still put on some O-rings?

you can use either single or double roller chain with no other changes. the rotator is the silly thing that sits on top the spring. buy keepers to match the retainers. you can buy 100 shims from k line for the same price as 16 from jegs. about 20 dollars a box ,still that's 60 bucks to make up .100. i've used positive seals from fel pro on both intakes and exhaust as well as o rings, all from auto zone, sorry no PNs.

Yeah, the Felpro positive seals are SS72527. So you used them on BOTH the intake AND exhaust? You didn't have any problem with the exhaust fit or anything? How long will those intake positive seals last on the exhaust valves? I was told to stick with umbrella for the exhaust cause of the heat. Do you think I should use the positive on the exhaust too?

What Cloyes timing chain kit do you reccommend for my 1989 305 TBI?

Do you have a pic of this rotator? Is this item also called an oil shield? So you are in agreement that I should throw away this rotator?

Keepers is the same thing as locks, right?

Who is this K-Line? I can't find them. So if I dump the rotator's that are on the exhaust valves, I will need to make up .100", right? And if I used Comp shims, I would have to get .100" by using different size shims like .060", .030", and .015"? But you say K-Line has a shim that is .100"? Post a link or something as that company is not on the jegs or summit website. It would be easier to have one .100" shim than 3 different size shims to get .100".

K-line is a mfr of all manner of auto machine shop goodies. Another of their handy products is the bronze-wall velve guide inserts, where you drill the guides out and press them in and ream them for a perfect fit. They're not a retail outfit. I doubt you'll find them on the web; everybody that needs to know about them, already does.

Dorman is another brand of them you can get at real parts stores.

Just go to your local parts store that works heads themselves in the back room, they'll probably just give them to you if you buy something while you're there. Don't screw around with CSK or Auto Zone or Advance or any other place where they have high-school girls that look parts up in a computer. Go to the place with the 100-year old greasy bare concrete floor and shelves full of old heads that haven't been moved since they invented dirt and no aisles out front with air fresheners and "sport compact" accessories. In other words, a REAL parts store. They'll hook you up.

I think I have one of those places in town. So Dorman has a .100" shim? What other brands have .100" shims for 1.25" OD springs?

And what is a bronze-wall velve guide inserts? Do you have any pics?

Dunno ... there's a couple. Go ask. It's a little bushing sort of thing that presses into the valve guide. Looks like a short section of tubing. Whatever diameter it needs to be for the particular type of heads it's for, about 3/4" long or so. No pics; the only ones I have around here are already installed in a set of fully assembeld heads. I was just using that as an example of something you never see, or hear about a supplier, but everybody has them and they all come from somewhere.

Is the bronze-wall velve guide inserts necessary? Is that something I have to get or just something that is nice to have on? This isn't the same thing as a valve seal is it? And what is the benefit of putting this thing on? Would it hurt anything if I didn't use this item?

bump

valve guides can be bought from k line/atlas tool

Since this thread started, I bought parts for, assembeled and (almost) installed one motor.
And still managed to somehow keep my job.
No more procrastinatin, fella... Get out there and bust yer knuckles.

damn 88 that's funny, true also. even the slow *** machine shop i use to use could of doen a set of heads since this thread started. glad i do my own heads now. takes me a few hours if i work at it, less than a day if i don't.

This is gonna be done at the local tech school labor free. This will be probably in a month, whenever they are ready for me. Cause I'm getting a tone of stuff done and I'm trying to get all of the pieces I need now, so I can order it in time for the tune-up. Cause I don't wanna order stuff and have to order something I forgot.

I couldn't help it... Josh, you've got a unique talent for keeping a thread alive.
So have you decided to do a valve job now?
Or buy a set of heads?

Well, lots of ideas have been tossing around in my head. I was looking at putting in a LT1, which would be cheap to do. Then I find out it won't do much unless I get a new intake and heads. And since I'm on a budget, I dropped that idea. I'm either gonna go with a GM single true roller cam or a double cloyes roller cam. I don't think my little 305 is gonna need a double roller. So I will probably go with the GM one at sdp2000.com site.

I was looking into felpro valve seals, but I can't find the positive exhaust ones. I don't wanna put the positive intake on the exhaust. So I'll probably go back to GM on this one and get the Viton ones or whatever they are, I've seen a part number floating around on this site, and I'll get them at sdp2000.com site. Vader also told me that the GM ones are more of a custom fit for our heads and Felpro is more of a universal fit type deal. So since I don't wanna machine anything, the GM ones look good. I'll get rid of the shedder thing and get the shims for .105" for the exhaust.

I'm gonna go with compeition products and get the VSA 3 spring kit. I was gonna go with comp but it would be $120 just for springs and retainers, and I would still have to get a damper and locks. So I was thinking that since my weak 85# springs have lasted this long (105,000 miles) then the 105# springs LT1/z28 should be a good choice to go with. And of coarse Felpro timing chain gasket and valve cover gasket. And there is some items I'm doing to. Plus soon, I'll be cutting off my cat, and my exhaust will dump right out after the Y. Right behind my front passenger side wheel with no muffler. I have no muffler now and the exhaust dumps out of my cat, and it's not loud at all. So I think I'll be fine.

I do have start up smoke which looks white and I hear that's cause of coolant, but it might be blue, but I can't tell. It only smokes at startup for a minute after it has set for a while, so I seems typical valve seal problem which I will be solving. I don't think I have a blown head gasket, so it's probably oil that is smoking at startup.