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I have a pre-87 block, probably late 70's or early mid 80's 2 piece rear main, WILL IT ACCEPT A ROLLER CAM<>> or should i get one retrofited to make it fit? thansk
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__________________ SUPERCHARGED 87 GTA: Blk/Gld, Vortech S-Trim 8lbs boost, Vortech carb enclosure, 750 mighty demon, 355cid 8.2:1 compression, Trickflow 2.02 ported heads. Best ET 12.689 @ 109.4 w/ a 1.85 60 on 255 street radials. tranny was slipping real bad, had to pedal it to shift. Plan to run 13-14lbs boost, target ET: 11.4
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you simply use the roller cam parts that people used for years before the 1986-1987 factory roller blocks came out. That was back before the word "retrofit" was used to describe the differences in roller cam fitment.
When you buy the parts, buy retrofit hydraulic roller lifters, retrofit hydraulic roller cam, a cam button, springs made for hydraulic roller cams, a cam button, and you set the cam endplay for .005" travel. most timing covers have too much flex to maintain that movement from a cam so you need a water pump with one of these:
so i do need the retrofit huh? i have the water pump with the cam stop
__________________ SUPERCHARGED 87 GTA: Blk/Gld, Vortech S-Trim 8lbs boost, Vortech carb enclosure, 750 mighty demon, 355cid 8.2:1 compression, Trickflow 2.02 ported heads. Best ET 12.689 @ 109.4 w/ a 1.85 60 on 255 street radials. tranny was slipping real bad, had to pedal it to shift. Plan to run 13-14lbs boost, target ET: 11.4
Or you get 8 sets of V6 rollers, a V8 retainer plate, a bit of drilling for the retainer plate mounting studs and reworking of the lifter boss tops and presto, damn cheap factory like roller setup.
I used comp cams retrofit roller lifters for my motors. They worked fine. I think they cost ~$250 or so. The aforementioned cam button and a good aluminum timing cover or a stop for it like Tom posted. The push rod length will not match standard push rod length either. They are listed in the magazines what length to get though as I dont remember the length off the top of my head.
Originally posted by Guido Holy cow someone actually DID THAT??
Heck yeah, many more are in process of doing it too. I just got my 3.1L/2.2L roller lifters yesterday and have all of the other parts already cleaned and ready to be set in place. I've got about $70 invested...
heh, personally i think drilling the block and all the mods for the inferior and only$50 cheaper "factory" style rollersetup is foolhardy...... anyhoo...
heres a nice bowtie alum timing cover i got... it was polished, but im not into the polished look so i beadblasted it.
should stop any flex at all... the thing is pretty beefy.
I tried to used a cast aluminum cover but when I bolted it on to check for clearance I broke it. The cam button broke the center. I just want to extend a warning to not do as I did. You may have to mill the little "cast in" center hump on the back side of the cover to achieve the proper clearance, or stack gaskets maybe. Comp or someone has a cover that has a locking allen screw in that area.
when you say " reworking the lifter boss tops" did you mill the tops and how much, or just grind them flat to smooth out the casting?
thanks for the info.
Just grind them flat so it's nice and flat, can be done with a die grinder if you have a steady hand.
Why are the oem lifters inferior?? that's the biggest BS, I've seen plenty aftermarket hydraulics fail on the bar. If you're building a nice healthy street engine they'll do just fine. If you do some shopping around you can save way more than 50 bucks
I wouldn't run any hydraulic lifter in any of my really high performance engines anyway. Solid rollers all the way for me
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; 02-03-2004 at 01:37 PM.
Originally posted by nytrus1 when you say " reworking the lifter boss tops" did you mill the tops and how much, or just grind them flat to smooth out the casting?
If you look at his picture... see where the lifter ratainer bars are really close to the edge of the lifter valley? The edges of the lifter valley need clearancing, or the edges of the ratainer bars, or both. The bars may not be able to fit over the lifters without this clearancing. The lifter bore tops will also need to be flattened as stated.
Seems a newer roller block could be had for pretty cheap with the superior 1 peice seal, they make adpators if you want/have to use a 2 peice main seal crank, believe the truck block are set up for rollers with 4 bolts mains, 2 bolt mains can handle mucho power anyways if set up properly.
Originally posted by Fevre Seems a newer roller block could be had for pretty cheap with the superior 1 peice seal, they make adpators if you want/have to use a 2 peice main seal crank
Aren't these adapters designed to fit newer crank into older block rather than opposite way? I mean you can't use 2pc rms crank in 86-or-younger block; am I right?
I ordered the comp cams xe 268h on a 112lsa,... 224/230 @ 050,... 477/480 lifct ,.. but ground on a 112lsa. cost $440 for the custon grind, springs, lifters,.. seats, seals etc. i couldn't get the other marine cam w/ the same duration and higher lift,. cause it is a roller,.. and they wanted $830 jsut for the cam and lifters.
__________________ SUPERCHARGED 87 GTA: Blk/Gld, Vortech S-Trim 8lbs boost, Vortech carb enclosure, 750 mighty demon, 355cid 8.2:1 compression, Trickflow 2.02 ported heads. Best ET 12.689 @ 109.4 w/ a 1.85 60 on 255 street radials. tranny was slipping real bad, had to pedal it to shift. Plan to run 13-14lbs boost, target ET: 11.4
yo're right anesthes; I looked again at two types of rear flanges, can't see any way to fit new, large flange into 5th main cap of older block. Sorry for misinformation...
Originally posted by FAQman Or you get 8 sets of V6 rollers, a V8 retainer plate, a bit of drilling for the retainer plate mounting studs and reworking of the lifter boss tops and presto, damn cheap factory like roller setup
Did you happen to notice, by chance, if the oil orifice hole on the side of the OEM lifters pops out of the lifter bore when the lifter comes up? The reason I ask is because I did a little test fitting myself on a pre-87 block with OEM 87+ lifters. The newer blocks have taller lifter bosses than the earlier blocks.
Originally posted by B4Ctom1 I tried to used a cast aluminum cover but when I bolted it on to check for clearance I broke it. The cam button broke the center. I just want to extend a warning to not do as I did. You may have to mill the little "cast in" center hump on the back side of the cover to achieve the proper clearance, or stack gaskets maybe. Comp or someone has a cover that has a locking allen screw in that area.
the button i have has a roller bearing that i can preload with shims... taking a few shims out should let me get it right... if not, i'll mill it down some...
Originally posted by Guido Sure seems like a lot of work when you could simply do the RIGHT thing and avoid all problems and take away chance from MURPHY
tell me why the aftermarket stuff is the right thing???
That's a typical US approach (not meant in a bad way), always use bolt on stuff, we here in Europe don't have the luxury of speedshops on every corner and need to be creative some times and do some research. I don't see why the aftermarket kits would be any better than a good deal of hme engineering.
Originally posted by Jeremy_84_F41 Did you happen to notice, by chance, if the oil orifice hole on the side of the OEM lifters pops out of the lifter bore when the lifter comes up? The reason I ask is because I did a little test fitting myself on a pre-87 block with OEM 87+ lifters. The newer blocks have taller lifter bosses than the earlier blocks.
Quote:
Originally posted by FAQman That's why you use the 60degree v6 lifters
The 3.1L rollers lifters and the 2.2L roller lifters from '95+ vehicles are the ones you want and are shorter than the '87+ V8 lifters. Search the J-body forums/classifieds and you can find low mileage used ones CHEAP!!!
If you search here in the general engine tech forum, you can find the part numbers I've posted for both GM and aftermarket Sealed Power IIRC...
Originally posted by FAQman tell me why the aftermarket stuff is the right thing???
That's a typical US approach (not meant in a bad way), always use bolt on stuff, we here in Europe don't have the luxury of speedshops on every corner and need to be creative some times and do some research. I don't see why the aftermarket kits would be any better than a good deal of hme engineering.
Because the home engineered stuff may work, but nobody has done longevity testing, and because it worked in one block doesnt mean it will work in everyones non factory roller block. The aftermarket stuff is universal enough to work in all of the aftermarket roller blocks regardless of casting and production variances. There is nothing wrong with home grown stuff. If you have enough resources to redo it, and the stuff it damages, when it doesnt work out, then cetainly I would go the traditional hot rod route of trial and failure.
I agree with Tom. I wasnt about to drill any holes in my blocks. And on my Dart block, there was nothing to drill there anyway. Id be damned if I bought a $2000 block, and then drill some holes for a factory roller lifter setup if I didnt have to. That seems silly to me.
And I cant go to any speed shop around the corner and pick up retrofit roller lifters. Thats an item you have to order even here.
Originally posted by Guido I agree with Tom. I wasnt about to drill any holes in my blocks. And on my Dart block, there was nothing to drill there anyway. Id be damned if I bought a $2000 block, and then drill some holes for a factory roller lifter setup if I didnt have to. That seems silly to me.
And I cant go to any speed shop around the corner and pick up retrofit roller lifters. Thats an item you have to order even here.
Agreed... I wouldn't drill a aftermarket block either..
But it's a cool fangle for us low buck guys..
BW
__________________ 84 SVO 9W HE351 Holset, B234F, custom intake, header, FMIC, MSII, Map Daddy
- my toy 86 Olds 442 403, 200R4, 8.5" 3.73 posi, T-Tops - mmm.. torque
-her toy
I dont have an aftermarket block either, and I didnt pay a fortune for my retrofits, I worked a deal for them from the shop I bought my AFR's from. That shop was on the corner. Unfortunately it was on a corner on the other side of the country. [RANT]Our speed shops on the corner are all dying because of unfair and even illegal business practices by Summit and Jegs. When you need a bottle refill or dyno run, ever notice how hard it is to find a place to do it. Dynojet's site will help you find one, but the guy that updates that page must be pretty busy with all the openings and then closings of our corner speed shops[/RANT]
Our corner shops are almost non existent at this point, they can't compete, and very few are run by decent enough people that people are willing to overlook the price differences to give them some business (I know of one that I will go out of the way to buy from).
As far as fangled vs aftermarket (the "right") parts, I'd rather roll my own. Part of it is that I'm a cheap bastard with no money. Part of it is that most aftermarket parts can barely, if at all be referred to as "engineered." Most of my backyard/basement/"what I crawled out of the cave with" parts work better and last longer then the parts that I've spent good money for. I've learned the hard way that in many cases I can spend X hours building something usually starting with a pile of metal or OEM parts or I can spend $$$ on whatever "right" parts, and then still spend the same X hours to get them to work the way that I wanted and end up with something that looks more rigged because I didn't want to butcher something that I spent $$$ on. And then a week later when I blow up what started as $$$ parts I'm faced with either spending $$$ again or starting from scratch.
Originally posted by B4Ctom1 Because the home engineered stuff may work, but nobody has done longevity testing, and because it worked in one block doesnt mean it will work in everyones non factory roller block. The aftermarket stuff is universal enough to work in all of the aftermarket roller blocks regardless of casting and production variances. There is nothing wrong with home grown stuff. If you have enough resources to redo it, and the stuff it damages, when it doesnt work out, then cetainly I would go the traditional hot rod route of trial and failure.
In this set up, you use factory roller lifters that contain the same "innards" as the factory '87 roller lifters, but in the stock non-roller lifter bore size. Custom length hardened push rods (a stocked item in many places), and a cam button.
All that's left is drilling and tapping a few holes in the lifter valley for the spider and clearancing the sides of the lifter valley for the lifter plates. What needs to be proven? Drilling and tapping holes? Grinding away metal? I sure hope the people that converted stock heads to screw in studs are worried then... Those running a 383 might want to double check the block since they clearanced it for the crank by removing metal...
Since when is aftermarket stuff fool proof? I've found bearings in wrong packages, heads with overlooked casting flash that interfered with valve installation, and got bushed pistons when I ordered press fit... It's only nuts and bolts... you have to do your homework no matter if you home brew or order aftermarket when you are building your own engine. Zero difference.
Just fyi, this conversion is also popular with the claimer engines found in circle track racers all across the country. Granted the stock lifters probably aren't used in the special features the cars run, but a lot of them have gone several seasons with only a few check ups that I have found out about... It's not new, just not well documented on the net for some reason. Every machine shop I've talked to knows it can be done too. See what yours knows...
I dont know where you guys crawled out of but spending $220 on a set of retrofit lifters, and about $100 on the correct pushrods to go with them is hardly EXPENSIVE. If it comes down to you having to drill a block because you cant afford to do it, is it really worth the roller conversion at that point?
Originally posted by Guido I dont know where you guys crawled out of but spending $220 on a set of retrofit lifters, and about $100 on the correct pushrods to go with them is hardly EXPENSIVE. If it comes down to you having to drill a block because you cant afford to do it, is it really worth the roller conversion at that point?
i got my lifters and pushrods for $125. *shrug*
but i did get soild rollers, so it was a little cheaper.. still, like you said, doesnt make sence.
Originally posted by Guido I dont know where you guys crawled out of but spending $220 on a set of retrofit lifters, and about $100 on the correct pushrods to go with them is hardly EXPENSIVE. If it comes down to you having to drill a block because you cant afford to do it, is it really worth the roller conversion at that point?
That's expensive when compared to my entire rebuild for less than $500 comes into play, including a roller retrofit and an LT1 manifold conversion... even includes 1.94/1.50 valves in the 416 heads.
$200 for a set of retro roller hydraulic lifters? That's funny? Please list a supplier that sells them new for that price. I would bet they are closer to the $400 range.
Now back to the topic
The conversion is easy and pretty straight forward.
The V6 lifters are internally the same as the V8 lifters. The OD of the lifters is the same. The rollers are the same Diameter. The only difference is that the V6 lifter housing is .4" shorter.
Originally posted by Guido Jack that thing up like a mother and go rost some rustnags!
Quote:
Originally posted by Lionsden The V6 lifters are internally the same as the V8 lifters. The OD of the lifters is the same. The rollers are the same Diameter. The only difference is that the V6 lifter housing is .4" shorter.
This is just the kind of mod I love. Even if aftermarket retrofit and origional equipment mod cost the same, I'd do it the later way. I just enjoy making stuff work, that may make me a fool but when thses folks start using the term "reinvernting the wheel" it just makes me want to do it even more. Plus you just know those dudes would pay someone else to change a tyre
Originally posted by Lionsden The rollers are the same Diameter. The only difference is that the V6 lifter housing is .4" shorter.
I bet those shorter lifters due to thier smaller packaging and lack of a captive link bar are much lighter than an expensive retrofit hydraulic lifter made for non-roller motors. If this is the case then this would be worth doing on just about any hyd roller motor. Any lighter is better even the tiniest amount, especially for the wicked valve float inherent to hydraulic lifters when reving and especially bad in aftermarket hydraulic lifters.
Has anyone thought of using a Custom Hyd Roller on a small base circle to allow the use of the V8 lifters?
If they really are .4" taller than thats a huge problem, I dont think they grind cams on .700 base circles, but if that was a type and they are .040 or something smaller then its a possibility?
Anyone actually measured the height of a V6 lifter VS V8 roller?
Generally the reason people get away from the factory setup is its limited lift capabilities and that its just a poor retention system. That piece of tinfoil holding the factory style 'link bars' in place works to a point, once you exceed that you may as well leave it off the engine and save some dead weight. Its not designed for the link bars to move up off the block, so checking that the lifter doesnt lift the plate off the block is a must. If it does... its just a matter of time before fatigue sets in and that retainer snaps like a paper clip does when you bend it numerous times. Then the bar comes off, the lifter rotates based on Murphy's Law, and the cam regrinds itself.
Originally posted by madmax Generally the reason people get away from the factory setup is its limited lift capabilities and that its just a poor retention system. That piece of tinfoil holding the factory style 'link bars' in place works to a point, once you exceed that you may as well leave it off the engine and save some dead weight. Its not designed for the link bars to move up off the block, so checking that the lifter doesnt lift the plate off the block is a must. If it does... its just a matter of time before fatigue sets in and that retainer snaps like a paper clip does when you bend it numerous times. Then the bar comes off, the lifter rotates based on Murphy's Law, and the cam regrinds itself.
Of the mock-ups I have done the lift is safe around .530 to .550" lift(1.5 to 1 ratio rockers). Maybe a little close to .600 with the right components. Of course 1.6 rockers would gain you a little more. If I were going .600" or more lift I wouldn't run hydraulic lifters anyway.
The retaining tray and lifter guides are more than adequate. It's common for the stock roller system to run more that 100,000 miles. So the durability is there. They're the same as the L98 Corvettes used. We have a 89 Corvette with that retention system making close to 400 hp on a nice street build up. Heck, new lifter retaining devices are now made from composite plastics.
Ok, well I just ordered a complete new valvetrain (springs, locks, retainers, seals, spring seats, valves) and a new cam (custom grind roller) and left out pushrods and lifters.
The cam is .503 lift (1.5 rocker) single plattern. Tommarow I am going to a junkyard and pulling out some V6 lifters, hopefully they will drop right in and provide little fuss doing it.
I thought the thirdgen V6 camaros had these lifters? I Dont see them on the list. where in the vin of a car would i find the engine code, J?
Got 36 of them today from 3 different cars. luckily, in 2 of the cars the intake was already removed so we just nabbed the lifters out. first car was a pain though...
I got out paying $2 per lifter. now i have 2 sets and 4 extras...
SUPERCHARGED 87 GTA: Blk/Gld, Vortech S-Trim 8lbs boost, Vortech carb enclosure, 750 mighty demon, 355cid 8.2:1 compression, Trickflow 2.02 ported heads. Best ET 12.689 @ 109.4 w/ a 1.85 60 on 255 street radials. tranny was slipping real bad, had to pedal it to shift. Plan to run 13-14lbs boost, target ET: 11.4 
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