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I have some alminum fastburn heads I dont want any bolts seizing from the heat so Napa hooked me up with some silver Hi Temp antiseize. Yesterday I put my headers on with tons of the stuff and stage 8 Bolts. Last night I read in the exhaust forum that silver antizeize will cook and harden from the heat. Is it worth it to pull the headers and use some of the copper stuff? How about everthing else on the heads, Assesory Brackets, Spark plugs, Spark plug wire Looms,?
Only thing to worry about with the heads is your sparkplug holes. The silver will harden, then eat up the threads when you pull & reinstall your plugs often.
You don't want anything hard between your plug threads and the aluminum threads in the heads. The plugs will also cook the silver anti-seize.
The best idea for aluminum heads is to have everything heli-coiled before ever using them.
good luck,
ODB
I went to the local bearing shop, "Bearing Distributors Inc" and picked up some commerical grade anti seize (as Ede mentioned). Its a lot better than the parts store stuff and costs less too. They have many different grades. THey are a national company so there may be one in your area. I think they even have a website (?)
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 93ND500: The only basic difference is who makes it.
</font>
Actually, there are some differences. Permatex offers anti-seize compumds in a few formulations, some higher in copper content, some higher in nickel content, some lead-free. The original brand, Never-Seez, has various metals including zinc, nickel, copper, lead, molybdenum, and a carrier oil. The Permatex "regular" blend is about the same. Almost every type I've used has dried out. The carrier oil burns away with the heat, but the metal particles remain. That is what it's supposed to do, and the metal particles are the sacrificial elements that prevent heat fusing and galling. I've used it on Inconel bolts and nuts in industrial heat treating furnaces that operate at 1,850°F, and the only way to prevent seizing is to use the compound. I gaurantee that any anti-seize would "dry-up" under these conditions, but it still works to prevent the seizing and galling. If you find someone who offers one that won't dry out under these conditions, I'm all ears.
I've also never had a problem removing exhaust bolts after having used the standard Permatex multi-metal coumpound, part no. 133. Even after several years of baking dry, the bolts and studs come free. I can even break apart exhaust pipe and cat converter connections that have rusted and heated for three years after applying the standard compound, but they don't get as hot as some fasteners closer to the heads.
Incidentally, the Permatex "standard" #133 is rated for use from -65°F to 2,000°F. Your aluminum heads will start to melt at 1,180°F, so what will last longer? It works very well on suspension and brake parts, and for coating the backs of alloy wheels fo prevent fusing to the iron hubs and rotors. And even though you are not supposed to use any type of lubricant on wheel lug nuts and studs, I have been caught coating the studs to prevent rusting in place and fusing to the aluminum wheels.
Oh, yeah - it's good on pancakes, too...
(Please, I hope no one takes that one seriously. Do I have to have a disclaimer for everything?)
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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..." Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vader:
[B} I have been caught coating the studs to prevent rusting in place and fusing to the aluminum wheels.
[/b]</font>
I use it on U-joint cups when I press them in. It lubes them to slide in, and out...
That just sounds bad, I can see it being taken out of context as I type...
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Remember, Behind every successful man is a suprised mother-in-law.
-Gallager Qsac
[This message has been edited by 87RS402 (edited March 04, 2001).]
briggs&stratton makes a product called valve guide lube and antiseize compound. great stuff, but i only use it on my valves, but i'm sure it'd make a great anti seize compund too. after reading all the cautions on the can i wear surgons gloves when i put the valves in a head.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vader:
...Third, the replacement sensors generally never have enough compound applied to be adequate. Then again, I like to load anti seize on every fastener I install. I coat spark plugs so that they don't fuse to aluminum heads. Exhaust work would be a serious PITA without a good application of compound. Chassis components always disassemble better with it. I like to use it on the rear faces of aluminum wheels to reduce cathodic etching that most people experience. I coat my side terminal battery connections to assure contact and prevent oxidation. I apply it to body and engine ground points and power nodes to aid conductivity and eliminate corrosion. My wife thinks I sneak some of it onto my pancakes when she's not looking... </font>
Disclaimer? Yea I got your disclaimer right here...
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"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
OKAY! I'm BUSTED! I like the silvery, pearlescent glint of the metallic particles floating around in the maple syrup when I shake it up - not unlike the fake snowflakes in one of those cutsie desktop dust-catcher thingies. I think it has helped keep my digestive system from seizing and galling, too...
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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..." Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ede: briggs&stratton makes a product called valve guide lube and antiseize compound. great stuff, but i only use it on my valves, but i'm sure it'd make a great anti seize compund too. after reading all the cautions on the can i wear surgons gloves when i put the valves in a head. </font>
Ed,
That's nothing but B&S!
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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..." Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
Thanks for the link. If you notice the major ingredients in all of their offerings, you'll realize that Permatex 133 and Never-Seeze regular grades have all of those elements in the formula. I've had no complaints about the standard formula for almost any application.
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I'm glad the ODB brought up the Heli-Coil point. I thought it was common knowledge until I mentioned it several months ago and apparently no one had heard of it. It USED TO be standard practice to install thread inserts in any aluminum part that received a bolt or stud, even brand new ones. I don't know what ever happened to that theory, but I know aluminum casting has come a long way in thirty years. I still have an aluminum T-10 from a '60s 'Vette that has inserts in the side cover holes - from the factory I presume.
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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..." Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
I always thought That you helicoiled after you screwed a bolt thread up, not befor Its a great Idea Ive never heard of.
Tell me vader, what is the stuff I have now it Is part # 765-1674 Antiseize Lubricant made my Permatex. Temp says -65 to 1600 F. and its silver in color? Would Napa carry the permatex 133 you spoke of? How does it look in color?
The 133 is silver in color as well. So is the Never-Seeze. I'm not sure what that Permatex item has for content. If it is rated to 1,600°F, I'm sure it will work well for you. The aluminum will turn molten at 1,200°, and the steel will glow red at 1,600°. I seriously doubt that you'll be running that hot for long, and fused bolts would be the least of your problems. I'll bet your formula has multiple metal particles, and should work well for most of yout automotive applications. I buy the 133 in pint brush-in-cap cans from an industrial supplier. I don't know where you might find them retail.
The idea behind thread inserts in aluminum is to provide a steel surface for the steel bolts to thread in, allowing for repeated assembly and disassembly without wearing the softer aluminum. The inserts are also necessarily larger in diameter than the fastener, thereby spreading the tensile force of the tightened fastener over a larger area. This reduces localized stresses on the softer aluminum parts.
Another benefit is the reduction in the tendency to fuse the steel bolts into the aluminum, since the steel-on-steel connections won't have the same galvanic properties of a dissimilar metal joint (steel-to aluminum alloy). If the thread inserts seize into the aluminum, it's usually not a problem. Incidentally, Heli-Coil is only one way to provide steel threads in a softer base material. There are many other types of thread inserts that work differently, and don't require the special Heli-Coil taps and insertion tools.
This practice apparently isn't as common as it used to be, since the aluminum alloys used today are much better and more refined than some of the early automotive castings from 30-50 years ago. The material is just that much better, but it still is softer than the steel. I know that Textron Lycoming still inserts the case halves on their horizontal sixes - the little 580-inch model, and probably the 4 and 8 cylinders, too. But they have to conform to FAA specs, which can sometimes be antiquated. Unless you are building for maximum performance and stress levels, I wouldn't worry too much about inserting for a street engine, unless you're as anal about these things as I am.
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Later,
Vader
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"I'm'a do Things My Way - It's My way or the Highway."
Thanks again Vader. I Guess I dont get it. Why did some, recommend I Not use this stuff and go and get the copper stuff? So you think I will be ok with This? It says on the back its for
Brake Lube Assembly and anchor pins
Engine head Bolts
spark Plug, Oxygen sensor Threads
Exhaust manifold studs
U bolts Lug nuts, and spring bolts
Egr Fittings
Starter and Alternator bolts
I called the guy who sold me the engine and he says this is the stuff he alway uses and has never had a problem.
"Only thing to worry about with the heads is your sparkplug holes. The silver will harden, then eat up the threads when you pull & reinstall your plugs often.
You don't want anything hard between your plug threads and the aluminum threads in the heads. The plugs will also cook the silver anti-seize."
I said this because if there's anything remotely hard between your plug threads and the aluminum threads in the heads, then the aluminum will start to get broken away. After several plug removals like this the threads are no good anymore.
I only recommended not using the silver stuff with non-helicoiled aluminum threads. The copper stuff will probably harden and have a similar effect. That's why the best answer is to helicoil all aluminum threads that you plan on using more than once.
It would wear the threads on the Plug Holes because of the frequencey of changing plugs. I think I will leave the silver stuff in my header bolts and will use it for everthing else but the plugs. I dont predict I will have to frequently pull header bolts, Assesory bolts, and the Temp Sensor. (Although, I am using the Paper header Gaskets) I might be pulling my headers sooner than I thought LOL.
So, as for the Plugs> If every antiseize will harden, like Vader said, Including the copper stuff, and I dont want anyting hard between the threads Which one should I use That will keep My Plug threads alive as long as Possible
I really don't think you have much to worry about even on the plug threads, unless you truly are as anal abou tthese things as Vader is. There are many vehicles out there that use aluminum heads from the factory (Quad 4 comes to mind right away, but there are many others) and they don't say anything about using any sort of anti-seize, or anything on the plugs. They just say to make sure that the engine is cold when changing the plugs.
Now, in my car, I will be using the copper colored stuff (because I can "borrow" some from work) that is rated for much higher temps than my engine will ever see (I hope it won't get that hot!) We use the stuff on plastic molding machinery, and we have to be conservative with the amount we use to keep it out of the material we are molding, and have no problems. We run at anywhere from 320* on up to 550*+ depending on the material. I hope my heads don't get that hot, although I realize the plugs probably will. I think the stuff is rated at like 1500*.
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Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350 (ZZ430)
using primarily GMPP parts.
Short block sitting on a stand.
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SUPERCHARGED 87 GTA: Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph (Naturally Aspirated): 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com
VORTECH S-TRIM, INSTALLATION IN PROGRESS: 10 & 15 LB> PULLEYS, CUSTOM HKS RACE BYPASS, CUSTOM DUCTING W/ COLD AIR, SWAPPING TO SERPENTINE, & MANY EXTRAS! BEST TIME: 11'S I GUESS. WE'LL SEE IN SPRING!
Just an update, we use the silver Permatex stuff that is rated at 1600* F at work.
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Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350 (ZZ430)
using primarily GMPP parts.
Short block sitting on a stand.
LOL
