Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
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My wife has a 86 monte Carlo ss and I would like to change the refrigerent over from r12 to r134. Does anybody know if this is a good idea? How hard is it to do? If i don't get her air working she will try and drive my formula. I can't let that happen.
I converted my 82 Camaro 305 to R134 about two years ago.
It works fine.
I don't believe it cools quite as well as R12 because our cars were not designed for R134, but is a lot cheaper to buy and is readily available.
My Camaro had a locked up Compressor, so I had to replace it.
I also replaced the Receiver/Dryer and the hoses to the compressor.
There is also a retrofit kit you will need.
The conversion/evacuation/refill cost me about $250 plus the cost of the parts I mentioned above.
It is not a cheap conversion, but if you have to repair your air conditioning anyway, I think it is worth the cost.
Future R134 adds are cheap and refill kits are available at auto parts stores.
I guess it depends on how long you plan on keeping the car.
-Skip
I don't know if I trust it or not, but J.C. Whitney sometimes offers conversion kits for 49.99. Is this too good to be true, or is that what the kits are supposed to cost?
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Corry Lazarowitz
clazarow@voicenet.com
clazarowitz@hotmail.com
1987 Pontiac Trans AM (GTA?) 350 TPI
SLP 1 3/4" headers, 3" cat back (stock cat
MSD ignition.
MSD Blaster SS coil.
3.73 Rear end gears
Accell 8.8 Wires
Bosh +4 Spark Plugs (Don't know if they really help but hell!)
Holley AFPR
Race Built Automatic trans ('vette servo, shift kit, tightly packed clutches)--just needs titanium gears now!
Newly gutted cat (the car gutted it's own cat!)
More soon when funds are avail...
A better value that that 50$ is the walmart 32.99$. I have used them many times all you have to do is change the fittings, basicly read the instructions. Just make sure that your ac system is totaly empty.
I put it in last year with a kit that i bought at Kmart for $40. I didn't change the condensor or anything like some of my friends told me. It works fine. The only reason it is not as cold is because it does not have the cooling properties of R12. It also does not contain any chlourofloural carbons.
The conversion kits we sell when we do a retrofit are like $29.95, and we get them from CarQuest. More important than the fittings that you change is the oil that they supply in the kit. The oil that is currently in your system from the R-12 will not carry through the system with the R-134a and cause the compressor to fail in short order. The oil that they provide will flow with the R-134a and keep your compressor happy! The oil that goes with the 134a in a system designed for 134a will not work with the stuff for R-12, so stick with the stuff in the kit!
The 134a will produce a higher pressure with the same amount in a system, therefore you actually don't use as much as the 3 lbs that our cars (and probably the same on your monte ss) take.
EDIT: I should also mention that the kits we get are just the oil and fitting adapters, because we have a machine for the recovery and recharging (Oh and it recycles, too!) Also be sure to evacuate the system before charging, or it will fail.
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Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350 (ZZ430)
using primarily GMPP parts.
Short block sitting on a stand. (Man, those Fast-Burn heads sitting on it look good!)
Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!
ASE Certified Master Tech
[This message has been edited by JP84Z430HP (edited April 17, 2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by JP84Z430HP:
The 134a will produce a higher pressure with the same amount in a system, therefore you actually don't use as much as the 3 lbs that our cars (and probably the same on your monte ss) take.
Well I always wondered why you use less 134 than r12. Answered my question wierd but true
BTW the walmart kits come with 1 can of oil and 2 cans of r134. should be plenty for the job.
I'm curious, how do you empty everything out of the system? My R12 system actually works great, but somewhere down the line I would like to change to 134.
When you calculate the amount of refrigerant to put into the system, do you include the oil charge too? For example, The amount of R-134A to be used is 85% of the R-12 amount. That works out to be 39.5 oz. The kit comes with 3-12oz cans of R-134A, and a can of oil charge which has 3 oz of refrigerant, and 8.5 oz. of oil. If you don't count the oil, it's 39 oz, which is good, if you do count the oil, it's 47.5 oz, which is not good. So which is it?
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89 Transam GTA, 350TPI, auto, 3.27 rear, dual cats, gray.
Magnaflow cat-back,
K&N open element,
Best E.T. 14.63@95mph
if you're gonna spend the initial cash to get things going, you should shell out a few more bucks now to keep it working cood. The accumulator (i think thats the name, the big silver can near the pass firewall) gets saturated w/ oil which you will never get out, so it's a good idea to replace it, like under $100 i think. also, someone told me to leave out the filter coming out of the accumulator, i forget exactly why but if you dont leave it out at least replace it. and also replace all the o-rings, the 134 will eat the R12 o-rings. Four Seasons makes klits w/ the o-rings and oil. they are in the back of the compressor, going into the condenser, and also going into the accumulator i believe. put it all together, get it evacuated, add the oil and charge..it should work great! you figure $100 for the accumulator (but for some reason i think they are a bit cheaper), $40 for the o-ring kit, another $30 for the kit, and you have a/c for under $200. not bad....btw i havent done this conversion, my R12 system works, but I was talkin to my manager (I work at a parts store) and he says thats pretty much the right way to do it
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85 Z28- 350, Comp 262, Edelbrock Performer intake, Edelbrock 600 cfm carb and Edelbrock cat back, Summit headers and vette servo
-JVC, Eclipse, Pioneer, MTX, Phoenix Gold, Planet Audio
When I changed mine (about 2yrs ago) I think all it was is some fittings and all new orings. Wasn't to hard to do. And to my suprise it still holds it's charge and stays cool. But it will soon be removed.
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92 RS, 350, Street & Performance MPFI, TFS heads,
Crane Rollers,
MSD Digital 6 Plus, 22lb injectors,
ZZ3 cam, Edelbrock Headers 1 5/8, 3" Exhaust,
Hi Flow 3" Cat, stock T-5,
stock rear 3.08, koni yellow adjustable front, twin turbo glass hood, T-tops, Auto Meter Ultra Lite Series 2 5/8 gauges, Teal Green
as a service advisor i can tell you r12 cools better in town but r134 cools better on the road providing the changeover was done properly. you can run r134 with the stock evaporator and compressor providing the system was flushed and the proper oil was put in but the best way is to install the proper condenser and compressor for long term reliability/comfort. be sure to install a new accumulator and get one of the new self adjusting expansion valves installed too....than your wife will be happy and you will be a hero!
Has anyone here heard of Freeze 12? It is compatible with R12 and the mineral oil. I recharged my wife's 92 RS today with it and it works as well as R12. I got 3 12oz. cans for $20.00 at Collier's auto and the R12 recharge hose for $4.00 at Autozone.
Never neard of Freeze 12. Sounds interesting to me!
As for those of you changing O-rings.... Not a bad idea, but not necessary if using the proper oil. PAG-100 won't hurt your old O-rings, but If you use the ester, it is supposed to be bad news! I'm not sure of the specifics, but just know the rules!
------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350 (ZZ430)
using primarily GMPP parts.
Short block sitting on a stand. (Man, those Fast-Burn heads sitting on it look good!)
I am a dyed in the wool r12 fan for reasons a I cannot explain. The r12 system in my 4mula I think is superior to my wifes 1995 bonnie. Much colder. Todays new cars are designed for 134 and provide adequate cooling. I would be leery to swap over as the system yu have on your wife's 86 is designed for r12. Besides,,,I have my own personal stash of r12 @ home and have FREE access to more at work. So I guess I won't be converting anytime soon.
I bought a car several years ago that dealership had put r134 in, and were too cheap to change anything. About a year later the pump locked up on the interstate.
Im not sure if it was already mentioned but Ive been told the r134 doesnt lubricate as well, and r134 will destroy an older r12 compressor if things are done right (ie changing some of the more major components)
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[This message has been edited by Fimbulvetr (edited April 29, 2001).]
I was told that R134 is hard on R12 sytems too. I wish I had known this prior to switching my IROC over last fall. It's just now getting hot here, and I can tell you without a doubt that R134 is inferior. The AC is 13 years old and I am just going to keep R134 in it until it wears out and then get a new AC. BTW, Autozone doesn't carry Freeze 12 because it affects the ozone. It may take some searching to find it. The guy at Autozone told me he has used it for 2 years in one of his cars with no problems.
[This message has been edited by speedlvr (edited April 29, 2001).]
Don't our cars use an orfice tube instead of an expansion valve? just wondering...
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Owner of a 1989 IROC-Z Camaro, a.k.a. "The Babe Magnet". Painted a cheap metallic blue that chips off all too easily and covers over the IROC-Z decals on the doors, also has non-leaking T-tops, ps, pw, power rear hatch, working A/C. Mods: SLP intake runners, gutted MAF sensor, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, modified air spoil, 3.27 posi rear end.
Broken stuff: rear spoiler brake light, driver side lock, power antenna, tilt steering, rear end bushings, cracked passanger side ground effect, washer fluid tab, leaking exhaust and a rotted through muffler that sparks when the car bottoms out while driving like any 17 year old does.
How does a guy know if a AC had 12 or 134 in it. I bought my 89 used. right now it is not charged but I want to charge it. It has a remanufactured Compressor on it that says use 12 or 134 so Im guessing it might have been changed over already. How can I know for sure?
The accumulator port where you put the refrigerant is bigger on a R134 system. Depending on the size of the port, that should tell you what was used last.
Just a quick question, I don't want to waste a post with this...
My compressor is leaking out of one of the fittings, if I get a new compressor am I required to change the accumulator? The system was already converted to R134 and later I noticed that the bolt fitting ontop of the compressor was bubbling out water (or something) How hard is it after replacing this to recharge on my own? Don't you need a permit?
Mike
[This message has been edited by burntblues (edited April 29, 2001).]
Austin, all the retro kits I've seen come with adapters to convert the R-12 valves to the R-134's. They have a locking compound on the adapters, so once you screw 'em in, they're there for good. If your valves look like they're two valves stuck together, you've probably been converted to R134a.
A vacuum pump is needed to evacuate the system. You can find them for $30 or so from places like JC Whitney, or http://www.harborfreight.com - but you need a shop air compressor to run one. In fact IIRC, JC Whitney sells the accumulator (silver can) for our cars for $20 or so.
I always wondered why you use less 134 than r12. Answered my question wierd but true 
