You know when you see those movies and just before santa comes down the chimeny, all that soot blows out? YEAH!?! Well thats my car Record = 11 foot shot of soot!! LIKE WTF So heres my problem. Gas milage. I get 9.81 (or worse) MPG. On a V6. I have had endless posts on gas milage and keep getting the same answers. I have searched until I could search no more. I need to find my problem, and fast. Heres what I have done: - Rebuilt carb (didnt help) - plugs - wires - dist. cap - Rotor - fuel filter - air filter - pcv filter - oil change - tire pressure BEFORE YOU SAY "02" Canadian cars DONT have them. I have no computer, nothing. Which is good, less things to go wrong. The only thing is, my timing might not be up to par, but it couldnt have THAT much of an effect right? cause the gas still gets burnt inside..... Could it be the coil? I guess I should pick up one of those (why not, everything else is replaced, better not spoil that) So yeah, lots and lots of problems, and the fact that my car sounds like a popcorn machine. If I gut my cat would it sound gay? Or would it sounds all awsome/cool, I would rule the streets!!....haha...yea, right PLEASE help me, Im sick of this 30 bucks a week with minimal driving. No one should have to go through with that. My friends Dodge Dart (360 4bbl) gets 22 mpg! But anyways, If your still reading this, please help. I need it

How many miles on the engine? Timing will have a BIG effect on MPG if it not right, it may run well but still get bad MPG. Could you timing chain be worn out and causing retarded cam timing, that could kill MPG. Have you done a compression check on it? Low compression will kill MPG too. If your cat is old replace it with a new one, don't gut it because that hurts flow and makes it sound tinny.

Check out the Cayalytic Converter to see of its clogged...That will kill economy.Replace the Timing Chain and get the timing up to par.Whats the average engine temperature? Anything really below 180 will harm economy.Run a bottle of fuel system/carbuerator cleaner like Techron or STP or Gumout.Might also want to get a Transmission and Differential flush.

triple check that float level too.what kind of carb?did you rebuild it yourself?sounds like its running EXTREMELY rich.
as posted above,get a timing light on that thing too!if the mark stays steady timing chain is ok.don't remember the btdc setting for your car off the top of my head,but 6 to 8* should get you in the ballpark.maybe it's under the hood somewhere.anybody know?bet it's in the carb somewhere though
Eric

Do Canadian cars have coolant temperature sensors? You know the type... that add more fuel the colder it reads (and if it doesnt read at all then it dumps fuel in).


My 2nd guess would be that your catalytic converter is blown... if that's not the main cause, then it's definetely being hurt right now.

I also think the cat. convertor should be checked, if the problem continues after that, check the idle mixture screws. Also, read the sticky on the Carburators board about Canadian Carburated Vehicles.

Making it easier for him

http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=277272

WOW, I did not expect this many answers so fast......awsome

I guess i will just answer all the questions here

-Timing chain is less than 6 months old, I forgot to say that. The tranny a year old (rebuilt)

-I have 255000 kms on the car

-I guess I should try a compression test

- Im not sure about the temp though, whenever I look at it its about half way up the gauge

- I have dumped SO much STP carb cleaner in my fuel, now its just wasting money I think....

- I checked the float level when I rebuilt it, so it should be alright.

- Theres a sticker under my hood saying the Timing should be 16* advanced.....seems like alot to me ??

- sellmanb - Im not sure exactly what you mean by that. I do have a temp gauge, but im not sure about the adding fuel....my guess is that would be computer controlled?

- If my tail pipe is black as night, then I guess my cat would be 10x as bad? so its probably REALLY hurtin....lol

- Ive tried with the idle mixture and fuel mixture to the point of starvation of it, and it still ran like crap! arggg, and thanx for telling me about the carb sticky, never seen it before.

Ok, I think that covered everything.

Just wondering, could the cat REALLY be messing it up this much? I think Im running rich as hell so that wouldnt be affected by the cat would it? Should I buy a new coil? Doubt its ever been replaced.


ALSO....always wondered this.

Can I take out a spark plug, start the engine and see if theres a good spark? or will oil and gas start spewing out the hole?

Thanx again everyone.

Go down to your local meineke and get a cat replacement or rip the thing off..

Yeah, Im thinking for sure Im gonna get a new cat. In another post this guy said parts of his cat were found in his muffler, causing it to be all clogged.... is that a possibility

Remove and/or replace the cat.. that will probably help if its an old cat.

What do your spark plugs look like? Does the engine lose oil between oil changes? What thermostat do you use?

shadetree response........
get a 3 foot crowbar and knock the cat's guts out!proved once that i had a bad cat.
plus it's really fun to launch the cat guts all over when you fire it up and rev it a bit!
if you do this,
1;you might pass emissions?????
2;wear a respirator(at least!)
3;disconnect the pipe to the muffler(usually at the back of the cat)
4;it takes a while,but make sure you get it all
5;a "test"pipe is the easy way if you don't have to pass emissions
Eric

not sure what my plugs look like, they are like AT MOST a year old.

my thremo is.....i dunno, just replaced though. I sometimes drip oil.... but my level is good casue i top it off.

compression check

Only takes a few days for plugs to color... take one or two out, and tell us what they look like.

Alright, I WAS going to but headers for my 355 project BUt now Im buying this for my peice of **** v6:

- coil
- new cat
- plugs (i heard when you run super rich they get all fuel saturated and are useless after that)

Before I spend more money on this useless engine, what is causeing me to run so so so rich?? Like I have done everyting I could possibly do......ARRRG..... Im better off buying a bicycle

instead of just throwing parts at it test things.

Good chance you'll end up replacing those things anyways, but atleaste then you wont feel like you are wasting money.

lol, think about it. if oil comes out, you've got a big problem. But you dont need to take the plud out. Just take the boot off and hold the end of the boot near a good ground, and you'll still see the sparc arc across. Last year in mechanics we were trying to find the TDC of one of the pistons in an engine, so the teacher told us to take a plug out and stick your finger in the hole a little bit and then try to start the engine. So somehow I got nominated for this task. So I have had an engine start with my finger part way in the spark plug hole. Not the most fun experience, but.. yeah.


I say we have a get together and then other ppl can have a look and see if they can figure out wtf is wrong with your car.

Oh, and, yeah. the cat. Just cut it out and throw it away, and weld in a test pipe, as said above. That;s what I did.

You should have told them where they can stick that spark plug.... lol... the way I do it is take my breaker bar a deep 5/8" socket and turn the motor by the center balancer pulley with my finger in #1 spark plug hole, and when I feel it pushing air out (or my finger if I have my finger in there tight enough) I know I'm close enough. Then I just find the slit in the balancer, and back it up or go forward some more to get at 0 degrees... no starter bumping for me... I wouldnt trust that at all lol... I'm sure it works just fine though heh... I just dont want to chance having the nick name of "Stubby"

that, and by the time you can tell the person to turn the key back, you've already passed it. I look at the pushrods because usually when I'm trying to find TDC I have the valvecovers off..

Hahaha, I kinda laughed at that.

But yeah, I bet my plugs look like ****. If there is actually gonna be a thirdgen meeting this thursday Im gonna ask people. You wont belive how rich its running. If someone parks behind me, and i rev a little, thier car will tunr black, no joke, i did it to my friends hood/bumper

Ryans already got that name for other reasons

lmfao. Er, I mean, I'm going to kill you. *cough*

This thursday? Where? Do you mean that thing at elbow and southland, southwest? That isnt a thirdgen meet, it's just a meet. But most guys there run carbs, so you could probably still get some help. I'm gonna try to go to this one, too.

Im talking about that camaro club that meets every thursday or something like that, you know.....the GEN - 3........that meets at sunridge. I wanna check that out if its actually up this time, and not cancelled.....

Haha...I just blew my 2nd 700r4 up. Good thing I have my Ironhorse Warrior Disc. It is pretty much blown up to Rear derailer is toast. Time for a Shimano deore probably. I work 10 miles away but I may ride my bike to work sometime lol.

lol dude, i would stick to biking if you have toasted that many trannys haha. I live far from everything so i need my car

just a thought,
you said that you have dumped enough stp carb cleaner in your fuel that it's starting to seem like a waste of money?
just HOW much are we talking about here?are you following directions on the ammount to use?that could be part of the problem.
Eric

Water down the carb!!! Clean those combustion chambers out.

When you rebuilt the carb did you go over the choke?
CTS was previously mentioned. (Is there -any- computer on there? Like the late 70's had here?)
Timing checked?
How did you set the float levels in the carb?
Who set-up the carb on the motor?
How's it act at start up and shut-down?

If I had to guess, I'd say it was the carb set-up. Post up in that board, but rather than list your MPG as the main problem, list the fact that you seem to be running really rich.

- I used a bottle of stp every fill up, like it says on the bottle.

- Im not sure about going over the choke, dunno what you mean

- I have been told that the car has no computer...so i dunno

- Timing is next on my list

- I set the float according to what the instructions said

- I just rebuilt the car ON the car.

- Start up = LOTS of hesitation
Shut down = just turns off....

thanx...

Water down the carb, no STP junk. Plain water. Down the carb. Will clean the combustion chambers.

Describe your rebuild. What do you mean on the car? How did you set the float level. Did you open/inspect/clean the choke at all??

your going to have to pull that carb to really rebuild it, doing it on the car isn't anything more than a patch.
take your time, follow the instructions, watch what your doing, replace all the gaskets.
check the choke pulloff, make sure it opens the choke as it should, make sure the choke opens all the way once the motor is warmed up.
if it is a computer controlled carb, it will have a mixture control solenoid in it.

Water??? seriously? that wont harm it in any way?? Do i do this with the car running?? Filtered or tap?

When I rebuilt it, I took the top off the carb, replaced all the guts, bent the float arm till it sat at the right height, put the new gasket on and then put it all back together.

I dont know how/where to inspect the choke.... can you give me an idea? But I do believe it opens all the way after a bit of highway driving

Also, just noticed, my air filter (almost brand new) is black and dusty!! crazy ****.....

Umm with the engine running. Otherwise.. it'll flood, and then it wont start and you'll have to remove the spark plugs to drain the water out, or the engine physically wont even rotate. Seen it happen.

Choke.. let the engine get STONE cold, like 8 hours no driving. Then look at the choke plate. Floor the gas pedal, look again. did it go all the way?

Brita

well, you know, acetone cleans stuff pretty good, maybe you should trry pouring some of that in too? lol. I have a video somewhere of a guy burning in his CPU with acetone..

i woulnt trust acetone in there....lol

kablamo!

whats a cpu

central..processing..eunuch...

lost me....

lol just kidding. Because sunuch starts with an e. lol. his cpu, for his computer. his pc. the processor. yeah.

oh....

haha ANYWAYS....

man, at pick and pull, tons of f bods. I found this pink bicycle in one of the vans, so i rode it around the yard, LOL i got so many looks, my friend was like....oh...my...***...

Couldnt find any carbs though. I wanna just buy one, slap it on and see if anything changes. I need better fuel milage

I did pick up a mint headliner for a dollar the cashier screwed up, lol, her fault

Did you ever replace the catalytic convertor? I would not put it past this pesky little piece of equipment. My daily driver...a Mercury Mystique...had the exact same problems you're describing...horrible gas mileage, no guts, etc...Then one day, it decided to use a whole 55 litres of 92 octane in 60 kilometers, and wouldn't go any faster than 75 km/h...Long story short, there was hardly any exhaust making out the tailpipes, and the back-pressure blew out the intake manifold gasket. Stick a cork up your *** and see how well you function after awhile...a plugged exhaust system will have the same effect...after my experiences, the cat would be the first thing I'd check before worrying about anything else, even though they are expensive.

Geez, ok to get the converter off the brain, grab a vacuum guage and have at it.

How'd you set the floats right side up?

While that is a simplistic explination, it'll work for this board.

You can also read upon it here:


http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...threadid=25876

http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=174734

http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=102500

http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...threadid=26260

It's been beat to death. If you don't have a cat ATF has been used as well.

Im suprised a fat man in red and white didnt come out with this soot!


Not a personal best but not bad.... (8' shot) record = 11'



while im posting, heres my new custom open element


(for all who have never seen one, that is a 6 cylinder)

NEW DISCOVERY!!!!

- went to look for my cat.....NOTHING....I dont have one.... a huge section of my exhaust looks brand new, the rest is all rusty looking.

- I dribbled a cup of water down the carb while revving a bit, hope it helped some.

Try advancing the timing. The soot is unburned fuel. It is unburned because the ignition did not start soon enough and it continued to burn on the exaust stroke.

Another thought, when the timing chin was replaced was the cam correctly phased?

The problem sounds like an out of time engine either ignition or cam phasing.

i dunno man, I forgot to check my spark, so if its bad im gonna replace the coil.

when i did the chain NOTHING moved when the cam/crank werent connected by the chain, the 2 dots lined up and everything went good from there. I replaced the chain because of the bad fuel milage, so i dunno. Im getting a timing light on it this weekend so hopefully it might help a bit

yeah, and did you ever get that bolt do hold your distributer down?


lmfao at the intake. Nice work... It works, it works...

I did

UPDATE:

So i dicked around with my timing again (no light) and it runs a bit better.

earlier today, if i put the gas to the floor from a standstill, i stalled.

so i also turned the mixture screw thingy and tried again.

a bit of a studder, but no stall, then just one big *** launch.

I took a plug wire off to see my spark and before it could get near a clean metal peice it sparked on some metal with dirt on it and cleaned it right off. So, my guess....spark = goood

So in the next few days im gonna get timing done, and try to lean out the mixture a bit more. When i tried earlier i leaned it out to much and it stalled. So i dunno.

good luck to me

Add more timing.

If the car is rich and has proper timing it wont stall from a standing start.

If it is lean and has low timing it will stall from a standing start.

Seems that you are not lean so I again racommend more timing.

All I've got to say is that all the dinking in the world wont help you get that just perfect... a timing gun is priceless, and for 20 dollars at a parts store why SHOULDNT you get one? I know that I use mine on every tune-up, and every oil change just to make sure that there's no change in it or someone else screwed with it.

After you get the timing at the right place, then you can fiddle with the carb. That way you dont have to compensate for your timing with changing the mixture screws and get a less than ideal performing car... I hope that makes sense?

a 20 dollar timing gun.....was i not told of this?? Oh, well, I guess here in canada they are more

makes sence though, thanx

SDIF- what i have been doin is.....

apparently the dist. all the way advanced is 20*. My factory timing is supposed to be 16*. so basically i turned it back like, half an inch of turn, and hopped that was right. Is it strange though that as I add more timing the engine seems more stable? But yeah Im gonna add more timing (well try it) and hope for a gun