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Old 04-22-2007, 01:01 PM   #1
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What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Over the years, I've stumbled upon threads in here (and other places) where someone will comment on a car and say "it's a 13.2 second car, I know it's not that fast but...", and recently I just saw someone comment that a 12 second car wasn't that fast.

Now, I don't know whether or not these people have been behind the wheel of a sub 14 second car, but anything in that range is pretty darn fast. Hell, when my iroc was stock and ran a 14.6, I walked all kinds of people who thought they were driving fast cars on the street. Granted, at the track it's not that impressive but on the street, it's pretty quick.

I just wanna know why people are so ignorant in thinking that $2000 in engine work, and $2,000 in suspension work won't yield you a "fast car". For gods sake, we are talking about street cars here. It just makes me mad that I am ready to finish my engine work and finally drop a holley on my carb combo with aluminum heads and cam, and am expecting over 400hp, and running a low 13 on stock suspension, and am pretty stoked about the whole thing, and you have people going "Yeah thats not that fast".

Yeah sorry about that I just had to get it off my chest, someone please tell me they understand what I am talking about.


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Old 04-22-2007, 01:07 PM   #2
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

because factory bone stock cars are running in the 12s....aka 4th gen ls1 camaros. I would consider a 11 second vehicle a fast street car that would be out of the ordinary. As technology improves so does ET, but when there's weight reduction/cam only ls1's running 10.80s I can't consider a 13 second car to be fast but mediocre at best.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:29 PM   #3
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

^^^

Yep...


'Back in the day' a 13sec car was pretty good, but nowadays you can walk into a dealership and drive out a 12sec family car...
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Old 04-22-2007, 02:48 PM   #4
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

whats the name of that 12 sec family car?
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Old 04-22-2007, 03:10 PM   #5
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Steve pretty much hit the nail on the head. When i started racing 5yrs ago, I was running in the 14's, I knew I was slow. I got it down into the low 13's and back then it was a decent fast car on the street, and I used to say a car running 13's on the track would win most "street races" with normal cars.

Anymore, 13's are what 15's used to be. waay to much improvement in parts/components that "trying to make" 400hp nowadays is like building a bone stock rebuild 5 yrs ago...just the way it is, sorry to burst any bubbles. Besides, so long as your happy with your car, who cares, the other people are'nt financing your project so to heck with'em.

Any yes, factory cars no days are fast/faster than ever. old muscle cars were always the "standard" to which to measure how fast cars were with older folks, but even today that older generation doesnt understand all thos facotry muslce cars were slow 12-14 second rides....but they were on top of their game years and years ago....we're just in the next generation with being able to make more power, easier, with less strain on components, and hence factory cars no running faster than ever even fully equiped. Why do you think IHRA and NHRA had to change rules for roll bars/cages, do they think the guy that just bought a new C6 is going to have a cage installed just so he can take it down the track...heck no, so they lowered the ET requirement for cages so factory cars running 11's could go out and have fun too.

Yes, anymore you have to run 11's to be considered fast for the everyday run of the mill street car.
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Old 04-22-2007, 03:27 PM   #6
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

I know what your saying and i agree a low 13 high 12 if a fast street car. I'f your like me my sterrt car is limited i'm getting my wife through grad school so my car has to be a driver, it has to make 3000 mile road trips so i'm limited by economy and reliability isues. But in a few months whan she is out and working and another driver wont be out of the question then mid 11's will be the goal for my 3 day driver. Because its alot easier to get to now then it was a few years back and that much more fun!
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Old 04-22-2007, 06:57 PM   #7
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Yeah I guess I see where you guys are coming from, seeing as you can get a 12 second factory vette nowadays. But that's not typical, especially for a 20 year old like myself. It just aggravates me when I hear someone bust on a 13 second car when they've never even driven in one.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:17 PM   #8
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

the new ZO6 vette with ONLY drag radials on the rear has gotten down to 10.3 wow wow wow.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:25 PM   #9
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

1969 Plymouth Road Runner. Car of the year and it ran a mid 13 second 1/4 mile. At the time, that was extremely fast especially for a production car. It was also done on bias tires, 4 wheel drum brakes, no power steering or power brakes and was a full frame car.

By today's standards when you get buy a typical production car that can run 13's or even low 14's, with all the luxuries, it's considered slow but in reality it's still fast. A slow production car would be anything that runs slower than 16 second 1/4 miles no matter when it was produced. 50+ years ago, 100+ mph was considered fast. Just about any new production car other than small economy cars can do that with speed limiters removed.

Now on the same playing field, those old Road Runners or even a 1970 454SS Chevelle may have only been able to run 13 or 14 second 1/4 miles but they were also easily capable of towing a camper trailer or a loaded car trailer at 80+ mph down the highway while also loaded up with stuff or family. Not too many of today's 13 second factory cars can make that claim.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:47 PM   #10
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

^^^^^^ what pretty much everyone else said.. 14's are not fast nowadays.. theres 4cyl cars running 14's from the factory.. the new vettes, running mid 12's on a base model and 11's with the ZO6.. LS1 cars, new Hemi cars, evo's, STI's, supras, cobras, all these run in the low 13's from the factory.. heck, even minivans are getting fast..

basically, times change..
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:59 PM   #11
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

i run in the 13s and ive smoked every hard *** at school who think they drive fast cars... i consider a 13 second daily driven car a fast car
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Old 04-22-2007, 08:18 PM   #12
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

I know around here it's a pretty big wake up call for all the guys who have "fast cars" when they go to the local drag strip on friday nights. Most guys are running around 10.00-11.50 (1/8th mile). This is definitely not fast. 14's will keep most of the imports will lots of decals and wings at bay. If you want to brag about racing real cars, you have to run in the 12's. I know my Camaro is slow, (I run 9.55 in the 1/8th) But it's still fast enough to humilliate most civics and such. So 13's will get you about mid pack, but to be "fast" you need to be in the 12's. And I have driven cars capable of high 10's in the quarter, and THAT's fast.
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Old 04-22-2007, 08:38 PM   #13
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

12 sec. cars, I think, are still fast. 13 sec. cars seem to be the norm now.

I remember going to the street races in Philly back in 98-99 and the cars in the 13's were the faster ones. Eight years later and now 13's are the norm. Imagine 8 years from now?

On the flip side, we're on the verge of another fuel crisis so who knows. It's what killed off the old muscle cars. History does repeat itself.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:34 PM   #14
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Sure this might be a dated comment, But we also have a lot of enthusiast who came about out of the ***** Scene. The Big wing set is dieing if not dead now. You know the kids the ones who thought that if the add for the air intake said it gave them 20 hp, the header and exhaust gave them 40 combined, under drive pulleys where good for ten and so on. When they did the math based upon advertised 140 hp of their car They had 210hp rice rocket with. The also where the same people that figured that they where actually running around in ten second show cars in the fast and the furious. I meet one kid who fingered his Big wheeled, Body Kit and big load freaking stereo bolt on wonder civic beat stock non z06 c5 at a stop light drag meant that he was there for fast and he figured that by that fact he had a mid 12 second car.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:47 PM   #15
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Everyone thinks they have a 12 second car because it seems fast on the street. Going to the drag strip to find out it's a mid 14 second car shuts them up or they come up with some lame excuse that they spun off the line or missed a shift or something like that.

I'd say time slips don't lie but I've had a few where there was a timing error and my times were completely out to lunch. One year we had a gopher tripping the finish line beams before the cars got to them.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:48 PM   #16
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

There's too many factory 4 doors that run 14's and with a little effort even break into the 13's so 12's minimum if you dont want to be embarassed in your caveman technology 80's car. Sad but true. So at that point 12's arent fast, just a little quicker than most. With all the LS1's, Corvettes, Cobras... need to run low 12's or into the 11's to keep up.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:52 PM   #17
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

idk, i consider anything that dips into the 12s to be respectable. It really bothers me that all these stock cars are now coming with 500 hp tho. In my opinion, thats a tad to much power for the average driver to handle.
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Old 04-23-2007, 12:20 AM   #18
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

i drive a 13.6 second car...its slow...it bores me

first gear is fun but thats it. 12's would be nicer.... but lower 12's at trap speeds over 110 will be the ticket for starting to become fast.

i consider any street car that traps near 120 to be pretty fast.

i've been in a srt4 that went 104-105 in the 1/4 and ran mid 13's and it felt pretty quick up top end. but it was not "fast"

sorry but 13's just arent fast
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:07 AM   #19
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

even running mid 12's, it does feel kinda slow once out of second.. third is alright but fourth is boring.. i think i need to go turbo.. lol
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:43 AM   #20
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen 87 IROC View Post
Everyone thinks they have a 12 second car because it seems fast on the street. Going to the drag strip to find out it's a mid 14 second car shuts them up or they come up with some lame excuse that they spun off the line or missed a shift or something like that.

I'd say time slips don't lie but I've had a few where there was a timing error and my times were completely out to lunch. One year we had a gopher tripping the finish line beams before the cars got to them.
the gopher was just trying to help your times out Going to the strip is a real eye opener for a first timer. When I had a 305 in the car I thought for sure it was a 14 second car easy. My first run was a mid 15 and only got it down to 15.21.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:34 AM   #21
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

I agree that cars are faster today. The question is how many of us can actually afford to buy, insure and feed one?

What does the STI, EVO, ZO6, Cobra, etc, cost?

Bang for the buck wise, I would not be ashamed to say I own a 13 second car.

If money was no object, then I would just go find me a McClaren F1, Ferrari, Lambo, RUF Porsche or something in that general category.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:44 AM   #22
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Quote:
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Bang for the buck wise, I would not be ashamed to say I own a 13 second car.
Definitely agree. "So you have a 13 second car sti huh? How much did it cost you? $20,000? Yeah my car runs 13's and I paid $1,700 for it, $4,700 after the work done to it."


Oh and btw, you've been a member for 7 years, why pick now to come out of the woodwork with your first post? It caught me off guard. I'm like, "yeah this guy's a vet, he knows what he's talking abou....wait he's got one post...how does one do that?"
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:19 AM   #23
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

"Oh and btw, you've been a member for 7 years, why pick now to come out of the woodwork with your first post? "

I was a member from the original Thirdgen .org site, before it shut and came back up - in the 90's.

I used to coment more frequently back then.
However, I noticed that a lot of the discussions tend to be subjective; circular arguments that don't really get anywhere and sometimes leaves one more frustrated than before.

This thread caught my attention because it delves into an interesting modern day development; the re-birth of muscle. More and more we are seeing muscle coming out of the factory. For me, the question has always been cost.

It is hard to find good factory performance under $20,000. A co-worker of mine just bought a Mazda Speed-3 factory 263hp 6-speed, turbo-charged.

I took it for a ride and it flies! $23,000.
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:43 AM   #24
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

I agree with Bullit. There are 12 second cars out there in showrooms but you had better bring some cash. You guys running 12's on the street in a 3rd gen should be proud of your ride. Let's have a looksie.

Brand/Price/ 1/4 mile time

McLaren/$1,131K/11.3
Audi R8/$124K/12.7
Bentley/$161K/12.9
BMW M6/106K/12.4
Bugatti/1,480K/10.2
Cadallac XLR-v/$100K/12.7
Corvette Z6/$71K/12.0
Dodge Viper/$87K/12.3
Most New Ferrari's/$100+K
Ford Shelby GT500/$44/12.8
Jaguar XKR/$93K/12.9
All Lamborghini's/$200K+
Mercedes S600/$160K/12.8
Several Porche/$100+
Saleen/$600K/10.6
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:51 AM   #25
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Quote:
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It is hard to find good factory performance under $20,000. A co-worker of mine just bought a Mazda Speed-3 factory 263hp 6-speed, turbo-charged.

I took it for a ride and it flies! $23,000.
Yeah I read an article about this car, it's supposed to be a competitor to the WRX and EVO. I've driven Mazda's before, and out of curiosity's sake, I'd like to take that for a run.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:05 AM   #26
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

my sis has a mazda 3 regular and it drives very nice..i can imagine the speed 3 being a blast to drive!!
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:05 AM   #27
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

Another point to keep in mind, is that speed is relative.

If one competes on the NHRA drag circuit and drive a 4 second funny car,
a 10 second anything could seem like an ox-cart being pulled through mud.

Therefore, the faster one goes, the slower previously fast times may seem.

I guess that is why we are rarely, if ever satisfied with the speed we achieve.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:13 AM   #28
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

its just that we are living in the age of 10 second streetable cars.... many aftermarket companies producing 800-1000hp street cars.
i know some 9 second cars around me and some almost hitting high 8's that can be driven on the street if they want. its ridiculous but awesome at the same time. to be truly fast, i consider low 11's to be the starting point. 10 is fast for a street car. thats the way its got to be.

10 years ago, perhaps being 12's was FAST and 13's pretty fast.
i consider my 13.63 being pretty fast for what the car has done to it, only exhaust modded L98 with gear/stall. but compared to anything else, its slow
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:47 PM   #29
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

This discussion is why I would like to see more road course races and less str8 line ****. When I do my car I want it to be fun to haul *** through the Mountain roads, I want horsepower somthing in the 300-350 range but with a tourque band that sits low enough in the RPM's to catch and throw me into the next str8away comming out of a turn. Somthing responsive in both raw power, and road manners. Somthing I can drive to work with on monday morning, and then take the backway home.

Alot of people say that 13's and 14's isn't **** is because they have never driven a car that can run 13's and 14's.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:06 PM   #30
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

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This discussion is why I would like to see more road course races and less str8 line ****.
This will never happen, true racing as far as pitting hp to hp in a pair up, is always going to be in a straight line, is'nt too much a driver can do to screw it up LOL!! Auto crossing takes as much driver finesse as it does power, vs dragging that any moneky can do since you just have to stand strong on the loud pedal
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:17 PM   #31
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

talking about the newer cars being fast & with Stephen 87 bringing up the 69 Road Runner on bias tires, most anyone could buy that 69 RR, how many can buy a Z06?
you take away the modern tires on the new cars & see what they do.
i wonder how many people that run the newer cars leave the traction control on when they make a pass.
i would like to see what the Z06 could do on a set of G78/14s with traction control turned off.
13s out of a 20+ year old daily driver isn't that bad.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:44 PM   #32
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

My daily driver is a 91 454SS pickup. It'll run the 1/4 in 15.0 at altitude and I did get it into the 14's a couple of times. That's slow compared to most cars and very slow compared to my race car but when compared against other pickup trucks of it's era, it's fast. Newer factory stock specialty trucks can easily beat it but typical production trucks are still slower. With NOS I've had it into the low 13's. Not bad for a 4600 pound, low compression, truck but still slow for me.

As with anything, it depends on how you compare it. A small lightweight car with any kind of power adder will have an advantage over a heavier NA car. Anything can be upgraded to go faster. It just depends how much you want to spend. Buy some exotic sports car for $70k+ or something cheap like a F-body or Mustang and spend more money to make it faster. So many new cars are coming out with turbos and a few with superchargers because there's no way to make the huge amounts of power that people want with a small NA engine. The old engines, lets say pre 74, were built to last 100,000+ miles. I doubt you'll see many of these new high reving factory turbo cars last that long. They might be able to make HP like the older engines and at much higher rpms but they fall short of torque.

There are 4 cylinder import drag cars that can beat my car but also cost about 3 times as much to do it.
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:26 PM   #33
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

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I agree that cars are faster today. The question is how many of us can actually afford to buy, insure and feed one?

What does the STI, EVO, ZO6, Cobra, etc, cost?

Bang for the buck wise, I would not be ashamed to say I own a 13 second car.

If money was no object, then I would just go find me a McClaren F1, Ferrari, Lambo, RUF Porsche or something in that general category.
exactly
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Old 04-24-2007, 10:05 PM   #34
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

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you take away the modern tires on the new cars & see what they do.
Or better yet, give the '69 Roadrunner a set of modern tires and see what it does.
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Old 04-25-2007, 07:58 PM   #35
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

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Or better yet, give the '69 Roadrunner a set of modern tires and see what it does.
There were a bunch of scary fast cars in the '60s that ran 14's on bias ply tires... put some racing slicks on them even back then, and watch the time drop through the floor. The back door 427 Camaros (not the ZL1) would run in the high 12s, the Hemi Cuda/Challenger would run VERY low 13s, same for the LS6 Chevelles. The 440-6pak cars were even faster than the Hemi cars by a couple tenths.

By far the biggest reason the '60s cars seem slow by modern standards was because the tires were garbage. Now, don't get me wrong, I know that the vast majority of the muscle cars were/are over-hyped, but put modern tires on one of the REAL muscle cars, like the SS396/427/454 cars, or the Hemi/440-6 cars, and they can hang with alot of the new muscle.

Last edited by Air_Adam; 04-25-2007 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 04-25-2007, 09:49 PM   #36
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

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There were a bunch of scary fast cars in the '60s that ran 14's on bias ply tires... put some racing slicks on them even back then, and watch the time drop through the floor. The back door 427 Camaros (not the ZL1) would run in the high 12s, the Hemi Cuda/Challenger would run VERY low 13s, same for the LS6 Chevelles. The 440-6pak cars were even faster than the Hemi cars by a couple tenths.

By far the biggest reason the '60s cars seem slow by modern standards was because the tires were garbage. Now, don't get me wrong, I know that the vast majority of the muscle cars were/are over-hyped, but put modern tires on one of the REAL muscle cars, like the SS396/427/454 cars, or the Hemi/440-6 cars, and they can hang with alot of the new muscle.
Yeah, alot of people fail to see that half of going fast means having a good suspension/set of tires. Power is no good unless you can put it to the pavement.
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Old 04-26-2007, 05:37 PM   #37
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Re: What's with people thinking 14, 13, 12 second cars aren't fast?

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Another point to keep in mind, is that speed is relative.

If one competes on the NHRA drag circuit and drive a 4 second funny car,
a 10 second anything could seem like an ox-cart being pulled through mud.

Therefore, the faster one goes, the slower previously fast times may seem.

I guess that is why we are rarely, if ever satisfied with the speed we achieve.
This is exactly right.

I started out 10 years ago with my full size truck running 14.90 and that was very humbling since I thought it was fast before my trip to the track. Worked my way down to 11.90's and it did feel fast. Kept going and in the end it ran low 8's in the quarter and was terribly expensive to run. In the end I put a street sbc combo in that still ran 5.90's in the 1/8 on a plate kit and off the shelf parts. The kicker was that it was boring after I had been so much faster and I ended up giving it up altogether. My .02 cents, don't get your car so far gone or so fast that you can't afford it anymore because going slower sucks.

11's or very low 12's is still a respectable street car.

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