With the exception of some of you, I know most of you guys here are real good with working within a budget and you guys are great at figuring out what the best bang for hte buck is, and I definitely need some help figuring out what I'm going to do here. I'm not positive yet, but I just got my brand new build started up for hte first time this morning, and I've got a sneaking suspicion that my fancy worked over Vortec heads are junk. I'm POURING steam out the exhaust. TONS of it. Both banks. As soon as we saw it wasnt stopping we killed it, so my new combination is on hold for a while. I've got a suspicion that the screw in studs I have aren't installed properly, and I've got coolant flowing down into the intake runners from the stud holes. As soon as I get the heads pulled I'll be taking them by the machine shop to let 'em go over them. But assuming they can't be fixed, what do you guys think is my best option given all the parts I already have? I've got Vortecs, (vortec intake), and they're centerbolts. ALong with that, I have Comp Pro Mag NON self-alligning rockers (Guideplates on these heads). I'm trying to think of a combination that will work with my rockers and valvecovers. I'm not entirely against getting a new intake... but the thing to remember with that is that if I go with cheaper non-vortec heads, I've got to buy a new intake manifold too, along with getting guideplates installed in the heads, AND they've got to be centerbolt (I like my valvecovers, they're not cheap). So goig with a cheaper set of heads may cost me more anyway. The way I see it I've got 3 options: 1. Go with Corvette 113s, they've already got guideplates and they're lighter, but I need a new intake manifold. +$100-$250 2. Go with L98 083s. I'll need to install guideplates and a new intake manifold. No idea how much getting screw in studs and guideplates costs, but at the end of the day they'll be slower. 3. Go with another set of Vortecs.. Probably Scoggin Dickey vortecs. $450-$500 or so for their modified sets. But with teh Scoggin dickey heads, do they include the valves already? I know they dont include studs or guide plates, though they're machined for them, but I may be able to reuse the ones I have already. Been kind of a rough day, so any advice would be nice. Also, what do you guys know about this company? These look pretty nice to me: http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/...roducts_id=145

The studs don't go THROUGH the coolant and into the runners.

Steam out the exahust, TONS even, is completely normal for a cold start-up, and more so when it's cold outside; especially if it's a bit rich. Remember, fuel is part carbon and part hydrogen; when the carbon burns, it produces CO2 and some CO sometimes, and when the hydrogen part burns, it produces ..... water.

That normal product of combustion then condenses in a cold exhaust and produces visible steam.

Meanwhile, if it was caused by a head gasket or something, you've got pressures of several hundred PSI in the cylinders during combustion, and a cooling system that's basically at 0 psi. So.... which way do you think a leak is more likely to go? Right.... OUT of the cyl and INTO the water jacket. And, even though a little water will go the other way during the intake stroke, A WHOLE LOT MORE material will travel the other way. Meaning, if your coolant isn't all foaming up and you radiator hoses bursting, you don't have a head gasket problem. SO don't worry about that.

I think you're just being paranoid. Quit worrying yourself to death over a bunhc of imaginary nothing, and get on with break-in.

I'd suggest running it until the engine and exhaust are COMPLETELY warmed up.

It won't hurt anything, in any case; even if there IS water getting into the intake tract somehow, it won't bother a thing.

Try it and see.

Right. I would much more suspect some sort of intake problem, like the throttle body coolant lines leaking into the intake if you're using lots of water.

Having water pour out BOTH sides of the engine is a good sign, in my eyes. That means you don't have a cracked block or head because that would most likely be specific to one bank.

Got any water in the oil or oil in the radiator????

There were huge puddles of water coming out each side of my exhaust and TONS of steam. I really, REALLY don't see this as normal and I had some more experienced buddies who've broken in virgin motors before and they didn't seem to think it was normal either. The steam cloud was bigger than the car!

I'm tearing it down anyway, so maybe I'll find something obvious somewhere along the way.

And when we checked the oil after we shut it down it was still clean. The water seemed clean when I dumped it out, but it only ran for about 30 seconds or so. I did notice when I pulled off the top rad hose that the water that had pooled in there was pretty murky looking.

And Im using the GMPP Vortec intake, it has a heated intake passage but it's blocked off with plugs...

Here's a pic of it with the manifold on so you see what I'm talking about:


With it off just a few mins ago, no obvious leaks that I can spot. Clicking on it will take you to a direct link of a much larger picture:


And you can see a little here where the hole in the intake port is where the studs go through (top of left port here) and you can reach in and feel threads... Are you guys sure those dont go through the water jacket?


And the holes for the studs that concern me, You can barely see it here, but it's in every single intake runner, and judging by the massive amount sof water I had coming out it would fit my theory. But maybe you guys are right, I dont know?

Did you pull the plugs to see if they were burning antifreeze. Any bubbles in the radiator?
I would stay with the type of heads you are already set up for, if you need to replace them. Double check with the machine shop that the heads, block and gaskets are all correct for each other too. Was the block or heads over heated or pressure tested ? What history do they have ?

so all in all the engine has only ran for 30 seconds?

Just to chip in, in certain weather conditions my car car spews ungodly amounts of white steam. I'm talking like house-sized clouds. The kind you see when somebody stands on the brake at WOT for like 30 or 40 seconds. If the temperature and humidity is just right the little bits of steam won't readily evaporate and one hell of a water cloud can accumulate in front of my house. Every time it happens I have to look twice and watch it for awhile just to make sure, because it always *seems* like it isn't right. Your very large exhaust will exaggerate this effect. Larger pipes mean more mass of metal which means greater capacity to pull heat right out of the exhaust causing the gaseous water to condense. On top of that you will have less velocity which means more time for the exhaust gases to transfer heat over to the metal in the pipes. I'd imagine these effects could make things appear pretty abnormal. Also what is the state of the carb tune? If its way out of wack (and I'd imagine it is since you just fired the engine for the first time) that could have some kind of affect on this effect.

But then again you seem pretty certain something is seriously wrong, you've certainly had a closer look at it then we have.

Keep us updated!!!

We had like 6 foot puddles coming from each dump, and there was water dripping through the welds before the crossover, on both sides.

Maybe you guys are right, maybe Im being paranoid. But I dont want to commit to breaking in a cam on these heads yet. I'm gonna pull 'em and take 'em to the machine shop and get 'em pressure tested. If they test fine then I'll go ahead and go for round 2. A lot of work, but safe. Hopefully if the heads check out fine then it was just weird weather or something.

Are you using antifreeze or pure water in the cooling system? Put some glycol in there, green it up, then you can tell if you're leaking that.

I'd just run it. You sure jumped to the conclusion that your heads were toast and unfixable fast eh? Heads can be fixed easily, so don't scrap them yet.
No, the rocker studs go from up top (oil up top) down into the intake tract (Air/fuel). No water in there.

You used a non hardening teflon sealer on all head, intake and exhaust bolts right?

Just pure water for now.

I had a machine shop put the motor together. Everything should be kosher in the motor, the only thing I didn't get checked was the heads, hence my skepticism in their general direction.

If it's the heads maybe they're fixable, I dont know. I just dont see how that much water can get into it without there being something seriously, glaringly wrong in it somewhere obvious. We just didnt run it long enough for that to be only condensation... And the oil is clean. But what Im curious about is the whole milkshake thing everyone refers to... does that apply to pure water? Or only to oil and anti-freeze? Perahps there's water in the oil and I cant tell?

The exhaust rocker studs on OEM vortecs do go thu the water jacket (but not into the ex port) and require gasket sealer. The intake rocker stud does go thru into the intake port roof but not thru a water jacket. I'm not a big fan of the OEM style intake gasket. I use a felpro 1255.
If the water in the exhaust was coming from the cooling system you would notice the level change in the rad.
If it turns out your vortecs are cracked I would go with another vortec head NEW "062" OEM or aftermarket (RHS or EngineQuest).
I've never messed with junk yard vortecs. Always started with new GM castings. Am weary of the used/recycled GM castings as overheating (caused by coolant leaks and lack of fleet maintance) is common in the original truck/fleet application.
Meaning a lot lot of the available used cores are in the JYor on Evil Bay because the original engine failed. (GM and rebuilders do not throw good usable head castings away.) The major cause of the the OEM/warranted L-31 vortec engines failing in service is overheating from loss of coolant (intake manifold gasket). Never heard of anyone having any issues with new GM OEM castings in a hi perf application.
The new 062 OEM castings are cheap enough to justify not bothering with used J-Y/recycled vortec castings. Sort of like the old 461-462-186 fuelie heads. I don't even look for them any more. Won't even bother with any old fuelie castings. The good stuff is not put up for sale. New replacment aftermarket ("S/R-Torker") castings are very reasonably priced.
The RHS 906 torker vortecs are great value too. IMHO.

I agree cold exhaust (on a cold day) creates a lot of steam and water. Assembley oil/lube (valve guides, cylinder walls) also creates a lot of ex smoke for a bit when you first fire it.

My gasket is a fel-pro gasket.





These heads have had a lot of owrk put into them. Exhaust side is ported nad polished. Hopefully if something is actually wrong with them they're fixable. But they looked good. I wouldnt exactly call them junkyard heads, at least not by the point they got around to me.

So do all you guys really think I just chickened out and should have kept going with it? Is there ANYTHING that can actually cause coolant to get into the chambers without it getting into the oil? Does oil and water do the same milkshake thing that oil and glycol do?

Is it REALLY normal for there to be ginormous amounts of steam and water flying out the back? I've got to admit that now that I think of it, it was a little cool and humid this morning. Just a question of what is within tolerable limits and what aint. But I had two guys helping me out that have a hell of a lot more experience than me at doing this and they both thought something was up.

If you guys are trying to convince me that nothing is wrong, and I can just button it back up and give it another go... I really WANT to believe that. But what confuses me is that my rocker stud theory made so much sense... but since they dont go through the water jacket on teh intake side... things are starting to sound a little ridiculously implausible. Eithr BOTH my heads have ginormous cracks, or the block has ginormous cracks on both sides (mind you it's been to the machine shop), or I've got TWO bad head gaskets....

Or there was never anything wrong? For the 30 seconds it ran, it ran really well...

its not a Felpro #1255 thou. (NOn issue) well since you already have them off you might as well get them pressure checked. What does the block decks and cylinder walls look like? The first order of business should have been a cylinder compression test and a coolant system radiator pressure test before you ripped the heads off the engine.
If water was entering a exhaust port or intake port directly, the oil would not milkshake.
30 seconds of running time is not enough time to clear out any assembly oil/lube in the cylinders and ports or heat up the exhaust system to clear condensation.

Heads aren't off, the picture above is how it sits right now.

Getting it back in running condition at this point is just bolting the manifold and carb back on it and getting the dizzy in.

Checking on that intake gasket and now knowing the rocker studs dont go through the water jacket on the intake side is ruling out a lot of things. I only ripped the manifold off to get a better look at what was going on, but everything seems good so far from where I'm sitting.

How does one do a pressure test of the whole coolant system? I dont have the equipment to do anything like that.

http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...S&Category=546

Goes on in place of the radiator cap (with adapter). hand pump applyes some system pressure (15psi +/-). If its leaking the pressure gauge on the tool will drop slowly. You can also test the rad cap with the same tool.
many good auto parts stores with a Loan-A-Tool program, will lend you one.
I'd throw the intake back on and give'er hell again. Check all the cylinder head bolts toque spec, first. if you're not using the GM OEM intake bolts with the ball on the end with that OEM style intake gasket you have to check that your bolts re not bottoming out in the heads before the right torque pressure on the gasket is applyed. A retorque is a good idea.

You'd be surprised at how much water/moisture a exhaust system can collect while the motor is out of the car.
----------
Is there sealer on the ex rockerarm studs?

There's some sort of black stuff on the studs that will rub off on your hand, I'll assume that's sealant?

I just remembered that I dropped a little metal washer when I popped the carb off... Newbie mistake. I couldnt say for sure, but I think it fell into the motor... So Im thinking the heads have got to come off anyway now. If nothing is wrong and I have to disassemble it just because I started to disassemble it... I wasnt that worried about it at the time since it seemed like the heads had to come off anyway.

But who knows, maybe I'll find it on the ground tomorrow.

And the exhaust wasn't on the car the whole time. But I thinking due to the way the mufflers are baffled (spiralflows) it might be possible that it collected rainwater and it didnt run out while I was mounting them up. But we had water right next to the header collectors... so that couldnt ahve come from the muffler...

If it went down in the lifter valley, it will end up in the bottom of the oil pan.
Not an issue. If it went down into a intake port you may be able to fish it out with a magnet. If it went thru into the cylinder use a small magnet/mechanics grabber tool or a strong piece of "J" shaped paper clip wire in the spark plug hole to fish it out. If you have not turned the crank shaft you'll know which cylinder its possibly in (open intake valve). If worst case and you have to remove a head to retrieve the washer, the gasket is probably reusable as long as its not torn or sticks to the head. Leave it on the motor.
If you're going to pull the heads be sure to remove enough coolant from the block and heads so you don't get the coolant in the cylinders and in the oil.
I use a little 12v windshield washer pump and small hoses to suck the coolant out the block (remove rear short head bolts) to lower the coolant level in the block before yanking heads
Is the washer in the intake manifold?

just fyi guys, this was done yesterday morning in Georgia, where the temps were already 60+ degrees out, the huge amounts of steam were unusual for the temps outside.

Ignore the steam. Find the washer, or at least, fish around in all the intake runners and make sure it's not in there. You should easily be able to see down into them as well. As said, if it fell in the valley, dont' worry about it; it will fall to the bottom of the pan and not bother anything.

Put the motor back together and run it until it's warm.

As stated repeatedly, there's no way for the rocker studs, or ANYTHING ELSE about the heads themselves, to create a water-in-the-cyl problem. Oil in the runners, yes; water, no.

I still think you're just being paranoid and superstitious. A little like someone else was not too long ago about their fresh rebuild. Have a little confidence in yourself. Put it back together and run it.

I just keep thinking if that much water went through the cylinders, it would have hydro locked. I just can't imagine where that much water might have come from, 6ft puddles? Maybe a stupid question but the car wasn't parked outside without the hood while you were doing the engine work where rain water could get in the exposed exhaust was it?

I got the portside headers off... and I've found water pooled in the #1 exhaust port. Would you guys say that's normal? The exhaust ports are ported on these heads... what are the odds it got ported through the water jacket? Woudl that explain it you think? I havent got the starboard headers off yet, maybe it'll be the same story... I dont know.

Im pretty sure that just cold air condensation or a headgasket or assembly oils wont cause THIS to happen...

Click these for bigger pics:



Wet finger after I stuck my finger down teh #1 port. You can see the water dripping out.

Came out of my passenger side header when I pulled it off.


Water DRIPPING out of the heads. Passenger side.


You can clearly see the water dripping out of both ports.

Im going to shoot a pm to the guy I bought 'em from on here. If he doesnt try to make it right you guys will all know who it is. I can't imagine the dude can port through the water jacket on at least 3 different ports and not know about it. Add to that whatever damage any water standing in my clyinders is going to cause. The heads are going to be on there at least one more day because I need to go grab some torx sockets to get the accessories off. Thanks GM.

Running your finger into the exhaust ports, can you feel anything unusual?

They all just felt wet and kinda greasy from the quick in and out I gave them. There was never anything I could visually see in them but a few of them did have some odd looking spots where I thought it almost looked like they were welded or patched or something.

Not all of 'em had it. But now that I look back on it... Im pretty sure I should have paid more attention to that.

This is my first motor... it's amazing how much you can learn in a year, but I guess you cant catch everything the first time around.

Ha! Expect to make some screwups. I'll save you the stories of mine, don't feel bad for your simple mistake. Sounds like it isn't that big of a deal (you didn't throw a rod through the block).

Dry the ports with paper towel, spray with brakekleen if need be, but get them clean. Feel around in there and pay attention.
Shove a magnet in there if you want, see if any spots are non-magnetic (ie epoxy). Not many glues will stand up to exhaust port duty. The backpressure/temperature could have cracked the bond of epoxy/cast iron or something, and left a bit of a leak.

Real easy way to troubleshoot now - remove your thermostat and put the waterneck back on. Hook up a cooling system pressure tester (rent). Pressurize it and look at the exhaust ports. You should see it SPEWING water if your theory is right. Add more water to the rad if need be. Try to find exactly where it's puking.

Then you can pull off the heads and take a really close look. Might be time to have them brazed up or something.

Dude I'm looking back and a lot of things are making sense all of a sudden. I think the guy I bought them from knew they had problems, and I think what I saw were failed repair attempts. I am 95 percent sure I just got conned out of $500. A lot of things are starting to make a whole lot of sense right about now... I feel sick...

Check your PMs may have some info .

What do you guys make of this? Is this patch looking thing here normal? You can see the rusty water in the bottom still even though I tried to dry it out a little.

Better spray some oil in them ports and Spark plug holes . And pull them heads off as soon as you can .

You'll have to excuse us doh heads for doubting you.
You definatly have a water leak!!!

Looks like a crack in the exhaust port wall .
How many cylinders (exhaust ports) are showing the rust?
This is exactly why I won't buy used vortec heads.

Indeed!!! That's pretty low on the list of things I'd expect to see happen.

Looks a bit like somebody got a little too enthusiastic with the die grinder?

ask the guy that you bought them from why he felt it nessesary to port the exaust side that far on a set of vortecs

were does he live maybe one of us could pay him a visit

Pull those babies quick! Egads! I agree with F-Bird. Definitely looks like someone tried to patch something up.

I don't think that's quite necesary at this point....

At least give him a chance to set things right before talking like that.

I don't think I've ever seen anybody try to "hog out" a set of heads that far. On some of them, there's almost no header flange left. Even if they had held water, you would NEVER have been able to get rid of the exhaust leaks. That's amazing. And it looks like they toasted SEVERAL of em. Like it didn't even occur to them that there might be a problem with grinding until he saw daylight. Wow.

Not at all something I would have expected.

If you had told us that the heads had been amateur ported, we might have guessed that; but we never knew to even suspect that somebody had had his ****-skinners in them.

Man I am sorry to hear that Kyle, I know you real excited about getting it running. I hope the guy makes it right for ya. I do feel your pain though bro. I had my issue with mine also which I still haven't figured out fully. hope everything work out for ya Bro

yeah, so i'm the guy dictating this break-in session, and i knew there was something seriously wrong. i'm just glad we found it. kyle, let me know when you get something together for it...we'll finish what he started when you're ready.

Some of the guys on here are funny......... I knew you were helping and if you though there was something not right then, well the pics show. Always listen to your gutt Kyle it is usually right.

Since you already have the Vortec intake, I'd say go with new modified Vortecs. They're about $425 each plus shipping.

If you can afford to do it wrong twice, you can afford to do it right once.

Whoa, that is rusty.
The part I circled in blue is what you think is the repair right? The suspiciously unrusty part? Hmm!
The part I circled in red i'm guessing is what sofa thinks would be a tricky place to get a gasket to seal. I'd be inclined to agree, maybe 3/16" of meat left there eh?

JY vortecs might be a good cheap bet. If you can rip Vortec heads off at a wreckers for $200 you could be laughing right there.

These are $300 per
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Not modified, but i'm not sure what cam you have anyway.

Good luck!

It's an xe262. 218/224. Nothing crazy.

My problem is that I've got Non self alligning comp pro-mag full roller rockers. I knjow they're overkill for hte motor, but I just wanted to leave room for a bigger cam down the road. I figured those heads would have supported a pretty large cam with no troubles, but we all know how that turned out...

But either way, I'd like to keep all the parts I have... so that means if I get stock Vortecs I've got to get screw-in studs and guideplates installed.

The $425/ea sdparts.com upgraded heads I mentioned are already machined & tapped for screw-in studs and guide plates.

What other options do I have for a $850 set of heads? SUrely there's some other good stuff in that range too I should consider?

Add another $400 and you can get a set of Fast Burns.

When you include the cost of replacing what you have now that you couldn't use with other possibilities, I don't think you'll do better than those upgraded Vortecs.

Well finally some good news... my cylinder bores haven't rusted (but there was standing water in all of them)





I poured oil into a few of them (The ones with open exh valves) but I got most of it out to take the picture.

No rust in any of them though... I'm so relieved. Looks like the block will be able to stay in the car and all I need are some properly set up heads and Im good to go...



Granted, I dont currently have the money to spend $850 on heads... but at least that's the extent of the damages that I can see.

And I got those bores dried out and COATED in WD40 for now, I got cling wrap over each bank and over the lifter valley, a big plastic bag over teh whole thign, and a towel over that... hopefully that will keep things good to go.

I think I seriously would have just broken down in tears if the bores had rusted...


I went and took pictures of every exhaust port... some of them had water in them still but there was nothing obvious from the outside... here's another thats been obviously "repaired".


And another


It makes it REAL obvious when you see all the iron rust around the repaired spots...

I don't recall seeing any history behind you acquiring these heads, if you don't mind telling us, I'm curious about that....

Without naming names yet, how did you get them? What were you told about them leading up to buying them? Did they seem like an impossibly good deal in some way? Were you at all suspicious when you got them and noticed all this funky stuff going on in those GINORMOUSLY "hogged out" exh ports? What all did you have to do to them after you got them - that is, were they supplied "ready to run" as is, or did you have to buy parts or machine work to "complete" them?

It's a combination of a lot of different things. The funky stuff in the ports didn't look nearly as obvious before as it does now (At least not to my then untrained eye) and remember, I AM a newbie to all of this. You learn what you can, but some stuff like this is just beyond your scope of expertise until you learn the hard way.

I like buying things here on TGO because you can always go back and look at people's post histories and you find interesting things. Some guy just gave him a motor out of a van that turned out to be an L31 motor. He had a pretty significant personal connection (his dad I believe) with a machine/cyl head shop and did a lot of the work to them, and then I believe I remember reading that it was a friend of his that did all the port work for him. Between all of that, someone was either stupid or a thief. I figured if the dude had such easy access to a machine shop he'd KNOW if the heads were junk or not and I gave him the benefit of the doubt whenver I saw anything funky with the heads. Surely he wouldn't have knowingly sold me junk heads, and surely given all that he'd KNOW if they were junk? Right? ...

As far as them being a really good deal... no... not really. I paid $500+ shipping for them, he wanted $600. Maybe that's a good deal? I thought it was a damn lot of money. Story was that he was about to use them, but had his eye on some of those patriot aluminum heads and used those instead. Since most of the work done on the FREE heads was presumably low-cost to free for him given his connections I figured it was reasonable that he'd set up a desirable set of heads that he got for free, unload them, and get what he really wanted after that.

In hindsight, Im betting that they did all that work to those heads, then his buddy fubar'd the port job, they attempted to "fix" it, and decided it probably wouldnt work so they just packaged it nicely enough to unload them on someone.

There were a lot of other fishy things going on with them, but a lot of that didnt come to light until much, much later. In and of themselves, none of it was that weird, it's only now that it's all starting to fall into place.

I see...

Well when he gives you your money back plus 2-way freight, you should have enough $$$ to buy something that hasn't been destroyed by some hack. Let's hope that he does the right thing.

Yeah I've bought & sold a very few things on the classifieds here, and have had generally quite good results, although it seems like I get alot of stupid questions that are already answered in the post, and bad low-ball offers. But when I've bought stuff, people have been mostly excellent to deal with, and on the rare occasions that there were problems, they have all done everything in their power to make it right. I hope the same holds true in this case.... and that you don't get some kind of "they were fine when they left hear, you must have ruined them" kind of lip from them.

I really hope he does the right thing Kyle, keep us posted. I treat these web sites like Ebay there are always people looking to screw you. I have had good luck selling and buying off here, have been screwed off one of the 4th gen boards but not here. I really hope he does the right thing, Keep us updated Bro

I would not depend on WD 40 protecting the exposed machined surfaces for more than a day or two. Get some "engine storage spray" or Rust Check" or just good old oil. and coat everything. (you can clean it off later) Drain the oil from the pan and replace.
Get a oil pump primer and re-prime the oiling system to flush out any water and then dump that oil too. Pull the lifters out and wipe and re-oil and re apply the breakin lube on the lifter feet. Oil is cheap. Rebuilding is $$$ive.

Got to ask why would someone want to make the exhaust ports so friggin big.
If he wanted a ex port like a Dart platinum-Pro 1 casting, just go buy Darts to start with.
Vortecs are all about velocity and torque. You want to keep the ports as small as possible and just pretty them up, a bit.

I hope the seller refunds your money too.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...ber=RHS12410K1

that fuel pressure regulator sure does look nice on that car

sorry to hear about your mishaps. hopefully the guy does the right thing. I might be willing to see the set of heads and a better intake off my combo if you ever come up with a bunch more money