Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
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ljnowell : Yes, I agree with you. What is your procedure for re-installing the dizzy ??
In a situation such as this, I would usually fab a pointer out of mechanics wire that points exactly at the location of the rotor. Then pull the distributor up just enough that it disengages and rotate it just a little bit to reinstall. Maintain the relationship of the rotor pointing at the wire pointer you made.
I believe the major consensus is that it a diizy problem.
So bare with me here. Because you've change the intake the dizzy and intake clearance must be measured. There's a good possibility that the dizzy is bottoming out, remove the hold down clamp and measure for clearance, if there is clerance then you need to shim the dizzy.
I believe the major consensus is that it a diizy problem.
So bare with me here. Because you've change the intake the dizzy and intake clearance must be measured. There's a good possibility that the dizzy is bottoming out, remove the hold down clamp and measure for clearance, if there is clerance then you need to shim the dizzy.
I dont think that shimming the distributor will fix this problem. It needs to be removed and installed correctly. If the problem still persists then he will need to move to the next step in troubleshooting.
Hi ljnowell,
I did the TDC thing for cyl #1 firing today and presently have the rotor directly pointed to the #1 post facing cylinder #1. Before starting the engine I will reverify with a straightedge to make sure I'm in line.
Hi ljnowell,
I did the TDC thing for cyl #1 firing today and presently have the rotor directly pointed to the #1 post facing cylinder #1. Before starting the engine I will reverify with a straightedge to make sure I'm in line.
Sounds like you are getting there. Be patient, it'll all work in the end. Did you move the distributor a little bit? I wish I were closer to you, I'd come and give you a hand. Being a mechanic its nice to hear someone work with thier problems without getting pissy and moaning about it.
Is this a Canadian car? Or, have the carb and distributor been replaced with non-computer pieces?
14 degrees with the vacuum connected and advancing is too little base timing. You need about 8-12 degrees at idle with the vacuum not connected. Assuming this is a non-computer engine.
Remember when you have the rotor pointing at #1 when the distributor teeth just engage, it'll move toward #8 as the distributor drops down on the gear. So, you need to move it farther when it first starts to engage the teeth, and let it rotate as it drops down so it points at #1 when fully down (and the oil pump shaft probably won't line up properly at first).
I dont think that shimming the distributor will fix this problem. It needs to be removed and installed correctly. If the problem still persists then he will need to move to the next step in troubleshooting.
It won't cost him anything, but time to check it. Damage to the Dizzy will occur if run that way for very long. I'm not saying I'm right just that it's a possibility.
Hi Five7kid,
Yes, this is a canadian car. Distributor and carb have been replaced with non-cc units . It is a fully mechanical engine... there is no ecm, no cc distributor/carb and emissions are all gone.
As for the dizzy, I've restabbed that thing more times than I can count and believe me the rotor and the # 1 post are pointing to cylinder #1. I adjust the oil pump shaft before installing the dizzy to ensure that it seats firmly against the intake manifold.
And for the timing at idle, boy would I like to get there...
I re-installed the dizzy and I believe I moved it a little counter clockwise... I'll have to start it to tell whether I was successful...
Can't start it today as it's -30 degrees fahrenheit and garage can't stay open... I 'll start it tommorrow morning as it will warm up.
As for getting pissy and complaining... that is not what will get my issue resolved, I've been working and restoring this car (1982 Z28) since the last 3 years, + there's snow all over the place here and I can't drive it.....
everything looks cool in the pics, but its obvious that once you start it and spin the dizzy to the carb, there is a issues with how the dizzy is installed. You mentioned you were able to re-stab it and rotate it a bit, so hopefully its going to work better this time.
It won't cost him anything, but time to check it. Damage to the Dizzy will occur if run that way for very long. I'm not saying I'm right just that it's a possibility.
I agree with you, that if it is off, it is something that should be fixed or damage will occur. I was just saying that I dont think that issue is the one affecting this. I didnt mean to sound dismissive by any means, cause that problem does rear its ugly head, especially with an aftermarket intake.
Joey, Look into what 57kid said (when you get the chance haha). What I used to do on dizzy installs was hook up a jumper to my starter and when I had it in place I would click the button on the starter and the dizzy would fall into place. Then I would tighten the hold down, then I would rotate the engine to TDC and check. THEN I would attempt to start and go from there.
I had a 350 olds that took me 3 days to time right (turned out the timing chain was shot) but thats how I did it. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast brother! And keep us updated. I love little 305s!
Joey, Look into what 57kid said (when you get the chance haha). What I used to do on dizzy installs was hook up a jumper to my starter and when I had it in place I would click the button on the starter and the dizzy would fall into place. Then I would tighten the hold down, then I would rotate the engine to TDC and check. THEN I would attempt to start and go from there.
I had a 350 olds that took me 3 days to time right (turned out the timing chain was shot) but thats how I did it. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast brother! And keep us updated. I love little 305s!
Not really a good idea to do this, for multiple reasons. The most likely is that when your gears are not fully meshed you do not want them turning, at all. Its inviting either the gears to be damages, the oil pump to be damaged, or the timing to be off.
Its really easy to see how the rotor will turn as you install the distributor and move it accordingly.
Theres nothing wrong with bumping the starter to get the dissy to drop down, as long as the two gears are already meshed and you just want it to 'fall' into the oil pump drive. I've done it many times and never had a problem...?
As I mentionned this morning, the dizzy has been re-installed by manually positionning the oil pump shaft and onto TDC ... we will see what the outcome will be tommorrow after I start the engine.
Earlier this evening I also verified whether the the dizzy was bottoming out (as per rgarcia63 recommendation) and all checks out.
Theres nothing wrong with bumping the starter to get the dissy to drop down, as long as the two gears are already meshed and you just want it to 'fall' into the oil pump drive. I've done it many times and never had a problem...?
If its already meshed with the cam gear, you probably wont damage anything, but why do it? Its not hard to take your time and dropt it in right. Besides, those little plastic collars on oil pump drives suck.
If its already meshed with the cam gear, you probably wont damage anything, but why do it? Its not hard to take your time and dropt it in right. Besides, those little plastic collars on oil pump drives suck.
Usually its not a problem... like if its just doing something like pulling the intake, where nothing else gets moved, but if its something that requires turning the engine over before the dissy goes back in, then the oil pump drive is not necessarily going to be sitting in the correct position relative to the distributor. You could try to reach down there with a long screwdriver to turn it a little at a time, but you'd risk moving the shaft around too much and snapping that plastic ring doing that too. I know, I've done that. I've had much more luck (as in zero problems) doing it by getting the distributor where I want it on the cam gear, then bumping the starter to get it to drop down onto the slot on the driveshaft. 'Bumping' means only just enough to rotate the engine a few degrees, not just turn it over a few times till it drops in. That could very easily break things.
When the distributor is meshed with the cam gear and sitting ontop of the driveshaft, the 'cone shape' of the inside of the distributor gear, where the drive slides into, will hold the shaft steady untill the slot lines up and it drops down, so the shaft will not wobble side to side and risk breaking the plastic ring. Much less likely to have a problem in my experience, and a quicker distributor reinstall as well.
I've re-installed the dizzy countless times one tooth here and there with the same results...
I don't want to cause the engine any damage so I've decided to tear it down (already began), backtrack to the cam and verify each part during re-installation. Hopefully this will point me to the problem. Any suggestions ??
Usually its not a problem... like if its just doing something like pulling the intake, where nothing else gets moved, but if its something that requires turning the engine over before the dissy goes back in, then the oil pump drive is not necessarily going to be sitting in the correct position relative to the distributor. You could try to reach down there with a long screwdriver to turn it a little at a time, but you'd risk moving the shaft around too much and snapping that plastic ring doing that too. I know, I've done that. I've had much more luck (as in zero problems) doing it by getting the distributor where I want it on the cam gear, then bumping the starter to get it to drop down onto the slot on the driveshaft. 'Bumping' means only just enough to rotate the engine a few degrees, not just turn it over a few times till it drops in. That could very easily break things.
When the distributor is meshed with the cam gear and sitting ontop of the driveshaft, the 'cone shape' of the inside of the distributor gear, where the drive slides into, will hold the shaft steady untill the slot lines up and it drops down, so the shaft will not wobble side to side and risk breaking the plastic ring. Much less likely to have a problem in my experience, and a quicker distributor reinstall as well.
I guess its more a matte of how you do it, kind of like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I have always just used a long screwdriver, I actually have one just for that, and never had any problems.
HI Guys, Sorry for the delay.... finally got around to re-doing the work. Disassembled everything and restarted from scratch, as if I was installing the cam for the first time (except for the break in as it already went through this process).
When I restarted the engine today, I found the problem by accident. 2 of the 8 cylinder exhaust header tubes were warm instead of hot. I replaced the wire and all of a sudden it sounded as if it was now running on 8 cylinders. The only thing left to do is readjust the lash on a few rockers as they are a little noisy. I will do that with the engine warm tommorrow.
The only problem I have now is that the idle hunts 200-300 rpm irregularly. The vacuum oscillates from 20-21 in (and so does the oil pump). I went through the vacuum leak test and there were no leaks.
Would anybody have an idea of what it could be before I throw new parts at it ??
Is it a slow steady back and forth, or is it a twitchy bumpy needle on the gauge. Also, what happens if you bump up the throttle, does the needle steady?
I would guess that you have an ignition problem still. A slight twitch of the gauge kinda backs that up. A cylinder power balance test may be in order, as a quick easy way to possibly eliminate it. Do you know how to do this?
Last edited by ljnowell; 02-14-2009 at 01:20 PM.
Reason: almost forgot........
Is it a slow steady back and forth, or is it a twitchy bumpy needle on the gauge. Also, what happens if you bump up the throttle, does the needle steady?
I would guess that you have an ignition problem still. A slight twitch of the gauge kinda backs that up. A cylinder power balance test may be in order, as a quick easy way to possibly eliminate it. Do you know how to do this?
I agree... you may have one or two cylinders that are not 'pulling their weight' so to speak.
Hi ljnowell, Yes a twitchy bumpy needle on the gauge. If I bump up the throttle everything is smooth and the needle is steady. When I was working on it this morning, I noticed that the vacuum also oscillates at the same time as the engine hiccup.
I've never done a cylinder power balance test.... how is that done ?? (Thanks)
Hey ljnowell, I`ve started the car and I want to correct my statement.... it is not a bumpy twitchy needle but rather a slow steady (smooth) back and forth issue.
Hey ljnowell, I`ve started the car and I want to correct my statement.... it is not a bumpy twitchy needle but rather a slow steady (smooth) back and forth issue.
A more steady slow(sweeping) motion can signify an air/fuel ratio problem. In my experience though, it was more than a 1" difference most of the time. However, if it is this, and its doing it just at idle, perhaps you can tweak the carbs Idle mixture. I dont recall what kind of carb you said you had, but generally you do this with the engine running and you adjust for the best vacuum/smoothness/idle quality you can get.
Yes it's doing this only at idle. I presently have an edelbrock 1406 on there (electric choke). I've set the air-fuel mixtures (while engine was running) at the highest vacuum being between 20 and 21 in. with an idle of 750 rpm.... but it still hunts and vacuum oscillates that 1 in....
Do you think I should try a different carb ??
Is there any possibility I have a marginal Carb or Distributor ??
Yes it's doing this only at idle. I presently have an edelbrock 1406 on there (electric choke). I've set the air-fuel mixtures (while engine was running) at the highest vacuum being between 20 and 21 in. with an idle of 750 rpm.... but it still hunts and vacuum oscillates that 1 in....
Do you think I should try a different carb ??
Is there any possibility I have a marginal Carb or Distributor ??
You may still be off, but if you are getting 300RPM variables I would probably still do a power balance test.
ok, still be off on ??
How would I do a power balance test ??
iDLE AIR/FUEL. I would do a power balance test. If you are idling at say 800rpms, you would start pulling plug wires one at a time and note for idle quality and idle speed. If all but one or two cause a 125rpm drop and two only cause a 50 rpm drop, you find the problem cylinders.
First, I pulled each spark plug wire (as you suggested) and the idle went from 750 to approximately 500 rpm for every cylinder. Therefore no dead or lazy cylinders.
Second, I readjusted the valve lash while engine was running... a little messy but very effective. No longer any noisy valves.
Third, I readjusted the air/fuel ratio to achieve maximum vacuum.
I now have an engine which idles at 750rpm in park and around 600 in drive. The idle is smooth (it will go up and down those few rpm's but I no longer have an idle hiccup).
I can feel a slight engine shake throughout the car, could that be caused by old and tired engine mounts ??
First, I pulled each spark plug wire (as you suggested) and the idle went from 750 to approximately 500 rpm for every cylinder. Therefore no dead or lazy cylinders.
Second, I readjusted the valve lash while engine was running... a little messy but very effective. No longer any noisy valves.
Third, I readjusted the air/fuel ratio to achieve maximum vacuum.
I now have an engine which idles at 750rpm in park and around 600 in drive. The idle is smooth (it will go up and down those few rpm's but I no longer have an idle hiccup).
I can feel a slight engine shake throughout the car, could that be caused by old and tired engine mounts ??
thanks
It could very well be. Sounds like you have her running pretty good now.
