OSU Lemon

I couldn't find a General sub-forum, so I'm just posting in the forum that seems to be the busiest.

Plans are for me to be getting a car this summer so I can transport myself back and forth from a job. My criteria have been thus far:

-RWD
-Manual
-Under $3000
-Longetivity/upgradable.

I looked at the foxbody 5.0 Mustangs, but IMO they are an ugly car, and everybody here in Oklahoma has a Mustang in some shape or form, it seems like.

The other obvious choice was the Camaro. From what research I've been doing recently, the 3rd and 4th generations are pretty close in price for their conditions, especially the '94-'96 camaros. I tend to think the 3rd gen camaros are nicer looking than the 4th gens, but I'm willing to consider more than looks to make sure I get the best bang for my buck.

My question is, what about the 3rd gen Camaro makes it more desireable than the 4th gen? Are there advantages to the 4th gen that I should consider, such as more modern technology, reliability, etc? I really hope to do an engine swap sometime in the future with my father's Chevy 454 rat engine out of this 1980's Silverado, so that influences my decision, as well. Give me some feedback, as I don't know too much about Camaros yet.

Thanks!

ROCFATHER

I gotta say get a 3rd gen, of course! But it depends on what your looking for. As far as speed, 4th gens are faster stock 4 stock. Alot of guys on here do motor swaps so that is an option down the line.

I think 3rd gens are just cooler looking and becoming more popular now. Its amazing how many people stop and stare when I cruise by. Plus you have a better chance of finding a decent looking 3rd gen for under 3k.

I came close to buying a 4th gen along time ago. But I was picky and couldn't stand how huge (ugly) the dashboards are, and how the motor is tucked in??? Hope all this helps dude, good luck.

Viprklr

iTrader: (5)

I have both. I like both.
My 4th gen has sophisticated power.
My 3rd gen has raw power.
Here's a big but....
The engines on 4th gens come out the bottom of the car not the top. There has been a person or two that have pulled them from the top but apparently it's a really big ordeal.

1985kittta

I like them both but I also like to work on my own cars to. The 3rd gen is a whole lot easier to work on(as far as pulling motors). 4th Gen has some advantages. More pony's right out of the box and a ton of just bolt on stuff that make them faster. Just hope that you never have to pull the engine on the 4th Gen.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure it's been done... but i wouldn't want to try to work on a 454 installed in a 4th gen. You can barely change the spark plugs on a 3.8 V6 4th gen.

OSU Lemon

I figured I wouldn't get any other opinion except "go with the 3rd gen" from this forum

I heard about the engine swap being harder on the 4th gen. What kind of difference in power are we talking about between the stock 3rd and 4th gens? If it's a drastic difference, I may think about a 4th gen for now, then flipping it in the future when I have time to actually do an engine swap.

Also, what 3rd gen years should I be looking for?

camaronewbie

I also have both - a 1992 Camaro RS and a 1997 Camaro Z28.

The 3rd gen is built better in my opinion - like everything the farther technology gets, the cheaper stuff is made - the world has taken upon itself to use technology to make things smaller, thinner, cheaper - instead of better, stronger, etc. The plastics, interior pieces and such in the 4th gen are held in place with way less concern than in the 3rd gen. A 4th gen will not hold up to a years worth of having the teen in the house get the soda's out of the car.

The 4th gens are faster - way faster. My brother had a 1994 6-banger 5sp that would in stock form out run any other V8 3rd gen in stock form - the most factory power out of any 3rd gen was 245hp, the v6 4th gen had more. My stock 1997 Z28 has the LT1 (350), and just hauls with 2.73 rear gears compared to my 350 carbed 3rd gen with cam, dometops, exhaust, and 3.42 rear gears. I'll never have the wallet to ever see my 3rd gen beat my stock 4th gen.

But - I like the 3rd gen better - to me it's more stylish, way easier to work on as mentioned. The line between the 3rd gen and the 4th gen in my mind is the old school vs. new school line. The 3rd gen still retains the ease of access to work on it, the 4th gen crosses over into the "I have to take 3 hours of stuff off just to change a plug" realm.

$3k will much more easily buy a 3rd gen - the 3 that I've owned I never paid more tha $900 for, and they all ran fine, were straight, and minimal body damage. But 4th gens can be had for under $3k - I only paid $2800 for my 1997 Z28, and that was 2 years ago (granted I haven't seen a running one that cheap since, so I got a real deal - but it is possible).

Take advise from someone whose been around the block a few more times than you - get what YOU want. You'll always find a way to make it work out (ie engine swaps and such) if you want it badly enough, and I've learned that $hit happens in life - meaning that assuming that "I'll flip and swap cars to what I want later" may not happen as easily as you presume it could today. You get laid off, girlfriend gets pregnant, mom needs surgery, brother needs bail money, etc. etc. Things happen, not always in your control. Get what you want, and maintain the incentive to make it what you desire as time/money allows.

tom3

For the third gen I'd say get an 88 or newer. To get a 350 engine it will be an automatic trans unless it's been swapped. Fourth gen cars are a lot better riding, quieter than the third gens. Hard to find a fourth gen Z with under 100k miles for that money though, and repairs are a pain in the A$$ on some stuff. Mostly depends on what you can find for the money I'd say.

88gta_hiflyer

iTrader: (1)

I have owned both 3rd and 4th gen cars as well (97 Firebird Formula and 88 GTA). 4th gen cars are faster (stock), smoother, better handling, etc. However, behind the wheel of a 3rd you really feel like you're driving a muscle car. They're louder, stiff suspension, and just raw. It's hard to explain but 3rd gen car are so easy to fall in love with.

One advantage of a 3rd gen over a 4th is ease of repairs. 4th gen cars are seriously a PITA to work on, especially LT1 models. There is barely enough room under the hood of a 4th gen car for an LT1. This might be a main factor for you to consider given your price range. Most likely any 4th gen you can get for $3000 is either going to be a V6 or a V8 with extremely high mileage and or in need or repairs. Based on that I would go with the 3rd gen if I were you. You can probably get more bang for your buck, especially if you are able to do some of the work yourself. Good luck.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Funny that there's so much 4th gen propaganda in this thread. Let's get one thing out of the way right now... Unless you're talking LS1, your average stock 4th gen hasn't got a performance edge over a stock 92 Camaro/Firebird with the L98. 93-97 LT1 cars are very high 13-mid 14 second cars, just like 90-92 L98s. Put the LT1 up against the legions of 305's, TBI, low output carbed, and 6 cylinder, thirdgens and yeah there is obviously a performance difference. Even if you're talking LS1, on the street a late L98 car will put 1-3 car lengths in the book before the LS1 will catch up. Race to 50mph and the L98 will win. Run it out to 1320' and the LS1 will be pretty far ahead.

As far as construction, quality, longevity, etc it's going to come down to how the car has been cared for more then original build quality. Obviously a 92 Camaro is going to be a better car then a 82 Camaro, there's a huge difference in technology resulting in better build quality. Between 92 and 02 there isn't nearly as much difference.

Third gens are very basic cars. Everything is pretty easy to get at. Fourth gens are virtually the exact same car with a cosmetic make over and enhanced safety features. In the process the car became harder to work on. Choose the styling you prefer and go with it.

Neither one makes a very practical daily driver. They'll both work, but they're highly impractical. As project cars, they're a wash... If you can only have one car and you have to depend on it, I'd choose something other then a F-body.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Having owned both third and fourth generation cars, I'll break it down this way:

3rd generation pros

• Cheap to buy.
• Parts are cheap.
• Easy to work on.
• Excellent aftermarket for parts.
• Each car seems to have it's own identity as no two seem to be optioned the same.
• Lighter than fourth generation cars.

3rd generation cons

• Slow in stock trim.
• Bad interior quality.
• Weak uni-body.
• Crap stock electronics and wiring.

4th generation pros

• Excellent performance in even stock trim.
• Better interior quality than the third generation cars.
• Excellent aftermarket for parts.
• Vehicles are newer than third generation cars.

4th generation cons

• Horrible to work on. (Well in regard to the engine bay at least.)
• Lack of options or individuality. Each car is virtually identical to others in the same color combination.

Commonalities

• Extremely upgradable
• Excellent handling
• Aerodynamic styling
• Aggressive styling
• Comfortable (for the driver at least)
• Fun to drive
• Great availability, but not as common as the Mustang.
• Excellent resources available for all manner of troubleshooting and modifications.

Vortec_Formy

OSU Lemon

OK, so what I'm getting here is that the 4th gen is great if I don't have major plans on an engine swap and so forth, but the 3rd gen is cheaper and easier to do said engine swap.

I noticed I didn't specify in my original post that I was looking exclusively for a v8, especially for the 3rd gen. I wasn't aware that the 4th gen was that much faster stock for stock. It may work out better that since I'm in college at the moment, it would be better to wait for an engine swap when I have the time some other semester, especially since I don't know whether my father will be so hot on the idea of giving up his engine....

So, for the purposes of comparison (and I'm sure there are many variations), which of these are faster stock for stock than the other?

-V6 3rd vs V6 4th
-V8 3rd vs V6 4th
-V8 3rd vs V8 4th


I mean, hey, if the V6 4th gen can beat any 3rd gen V8, I might as well get a V6 4th gen, right?

87IROC-DAN61

Hello OSU Lemon!!

My personnal choice is to stay away from the V6!! First off, your going to want to change the motor to a V8, so start with a V8!! The car that comes with a V8, gets all the goodies that goes along with it, from suspension to engine upgrades!! less money required "after" doing a swap to upgrade these parts later!! The sound of a V6 is........well, let's just say the sound of a V8 can't be beat!! No V6 will ever sound like a V8 due to the inherant exhaust pulses, "farting bees" = V6 or "muscular rumble" = V8!! As for the 3rd gen vs 4th gen, that's basically a style choice as I see it!! Who cares about stock for stock, who beats who, your never going to be satisfied with the power that you have, that's why the aftermarket is full of go fast goodies!!! In the long run, it's only money, and your going to spend it on something, spend it on a good solid bodied 3rd or 4th gen, with a V8!!



Also, you will hear the 305 vs 350 debate, the 305 can be made to make HP, and if it's not enough, you can always supercharge it, or Nitrous it!! The 350 can be a whole lot more versatile, as the aftermarket is geared up better for it!!

I have a 305 TPI with 215 factory HP, it works for me!! I'm just as fast as all the other cars doing 65 mph at the same time!!

Damon

Yes, that's basically it. 3rd gens are cheap to buy, cheap to build and have every bit as much potential, in my opinion. Plus you can acutally reach the whole engine bay with the hood open and engine swaps are easy to do out the top.

I've owned both and I like 4th gens just fine, but working on them is quite a bit more of a PITA than a 3rd gen.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

That's pretty much it. If you don't plan on modifying the car then the fourth generation cars may be the way to go. If you do the third generation is the better choice in my opinion. They are far easier to work on.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Quick note, and someone correct me if I'm mistaken. But a V6 4th Gen swap to a V8 requires a K-member swap as well.

If you're going with a rat motor (big block) you'll need the extra room in the engine bay for it and cooling. If you're thinking of adding a carb, then your only option is a 3rd Gen again unless you want to notch the front windshield.

Another advantage with a Thirdgen is you can swap a lot of the parts from a 4th into a 3rd including the entire rear end and also the interior. You may find a lot of threads about it by searching this forum.

stoning_volcom

3rd gen? 4th gen? First ask yourself what you want, a car that you can buy the pretty much put any thing in? or a car that has a very good powerplant as is? The 3rd gen is a car tht if you want a v6 turbo got it covered, 350 carb got it covered, 350 fuel injection got it covered, wanna put an lsx modern power in got it covered. To Me the third gen is the way to go either firebird or camaro they are both very aggresive looking cars, and can except anything within reason of course. You can find a camaro/firebird 5speed 350 or v6 and there is a good start for under 3000 and if your lucky even cheaper. I dont know what you are into so asking yourself questions is the way to go and always make sure it is what you want befor just goin for it cause then we will see the car back up for sale lol but the 4th gen are very mean looking as well and come with the lsx which is a very easy car to make power with slap a cam and heads intake ect, and you got 500rwhp easy so it is up to you let us no lol kinda interested in what you want. any one else?

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

No cars were equipped from the factory with a 350CID engine and a 5 speed transmission. With that said, 350 swaps into cars originally equipped with the T-5 manual transmissions aren't that unusual. SBC/LSx/T-56 swaps into third generation F-Bodies aren't unusual either.

88gta_hiflyer

iTrader: (1)

If you're serious about wanting to do the engine swap a third gen really is the way to go. People molest and part these cars out like crazy so you can probably get a rolling chasis dirt cheap. Might be a good option since you've already got the big block.

Dizturbed One

College? I've been through all this man, and it really sounds like you need a Toyota Corolla. Don't take it the wrong way, but you've been bitten by the "my car needs to be cool" bug. We all get that in our teens and end up buying a heap we work on all the time. When really, I should've listened to my mom back then and bought the Camaro later, lol.

So, having said that, it really only comes down to two questions.

Are you the type of guy to get things done once you dive in? You love being elbows deep in problems to solve and time management is no problem? If you are, go with a third gen V8, you'll be much happier in the long run. But let me tell you, college has a way of eating much more time than you ever thought possible.

BUT, if you are the kind of guy that doesn't much care for getting it done and you just want a cool car... Get a V6 fourth gen, and don't bother doing anything but repairs. If you have money for a motor later, THEN buy a 3rd gen man... The car (especially if you're looking for one to put a motor in) will be WAAAAY cheaper than a nice motor for the next ten years, lol.

Another thing to consider if you plan on keeping it for a long time is... A 4th gen will never "look" very classic in your lifetime, like a thirdgen already does to alot of people. The 4th gen design is too modern and bubble looking, I'm sure the 3rd Gen Camaro's and Mustang Fox bodies of the same years will be considered the "last" classic pony cars for a LONG time.

stoning_volcom

i didnt say they came stock like that. and yes you can find them

Drew

iTrader: (58)

That's because it's not. You've got a bunch of opinions from people comparing slow or average thirdgens to average (LT1) or better 4th gens (LS1's). The honest truth is that any stock thirdgen before 1989 is not a fire breathing animal. Now you start getting into the 89-92 L98/LB9 5spd G92 cars and you pick up a boost of performance, stock vs stock. These later thirdgens run the quarter in the 14.0-14.4 range, vs 14.7-15.0's for a 87 or 88 L98.

When you start looking at 93-97 F-bodies, you're dealing with an LT1 that makes 275hp, but not as much torque as a 92 L98. Sure the LT1 will rev to 7,000 rpm, but by the time it gets there it's already going to be playing catchup to the L98's superior torque. Any advantage of the available 6spd has a 50-50 chance of flying out the window, unless the driver knows exactly what he/she is doing and can get the clutch out without spinning off the line. Meanwhile, the average automatic 700R4 driver just floors the peddle and takes off like a rocket. You can look up the LT1 numbers yourself, they're not hard to find. You'll see a bunch of them running mid-low 14's, virtually the same times as a maximized stock 89-92 L98. In the moment of truth it's going to come down to variables like tire condition, track condition, driver skill. It's certainly not clear cut enough to say that 4th gens (blanket statement) are faster in stock form. Back in 1999 when I bought my Formula, a buddy had a 94 Z28 LT1 auto... Needless to say we lined them up more then a few times, and the thirdgen came out ahead almost every time.

98-up is a slightly different story, mostly irrelevant since you yourself said 93-96 cars. The LS1 has more advantages but they also tend to break into a different price margin. That said, you can back a stock LS1 into a corner and come out ahead with a L98. It's an absolute riot stealing the thunder from the 40-something pony tail in his shiny new Ram Air 6 speed WS6 Trans Am, that pulls up next to you and starts mocking your old technology. Yeah, sure it's just a 305.

If you want to compare V6 to V6, V6 to V8, all you really need to know is that all of the early thirdgen 4cylinders and V6's are slow. I won't even get into the carbed 2.8's and so on, because they're blatantly, obviously, slow. But then you get to the MPFI 2.8.. Better, but still slow. That engine evolved into the MPFI 3.1, still slow. The 3.1 then evolved into the SFI 3.4 in 93. Guess what? Yep, you guessed it... Still slow. I'd put the edge to a 92 RS 3.1L 5spd next to a 93 Camaro 3.4 5spd. The newer car is heavier, and for whatever reason they don't feel nearly as peppy. The 3.4 might be a match for say a early 80's 305 4bbl car, or a crossfire injected 305 Z28, but so is the 92 RS 3.1. Any High Output thirdgen V8 will put a serious hurting on the best 4th gen 3.4. Those 3.4's are really dog *** slow... To the tune of "don't pull out into traffic if you don't want to test the safety features".

The 4th gen 3.8 is better, but I've honestly never driven one and can't give you any first hand info. Again, I'd give the edge to a high output thirdgen V8. A 200hp V6 just doesn't have the torque of a V8.

There are so many slow thirdgens, that it's not hard to figure out why the general perception is that any 5.0 Mustang or LT1 is faster then our cars. Unfortunately, only the select few thirdgens really got the prime time combination of parts for performance. That's why 1LE's, G92's, etc are so sought after. Meanwhile they cranked out hundreds of thousands of 16 & 17 second V8's that people mistakenly take for performance engines. On the opposite side of things, every 5.0 Mustang got a fair helping of the performance goodies. The same with the 4th gen LT1's. There was no detuned version that sold like hot cakes... A Z28 meant 275hp. You've gotta search to find a stock thirdgen that makes the power.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

i like third gens and i really like gtas..i think the gtas are the best looking thirdgen cars... i dont like the looks of the 4th gen camaro especially lt1 camaros... have you seen how tucked up those engines are inside.. that alone was one of the main reasons why i didnt want a lt1 4th gen car car.... i swear half the engine is behind the firewall... where as 3rd gens are right at you.... bolt on l98 cars are hard to beat on short distance races... they were made for gobs of low end torque which is excellent for the street... the ls1 may have more power but by the time u get to the ls1's full potential your either breaking the speed limit or the race is already over.... i have beaten ls1 cars from a stop on short races... l98's torque makes the car quicker in bursts and would surprise guys who actually have higher horsepowered cars..

Dizturbed One

Nah Drew, the 3.4 5 speeds are quicker than a 92 RS 3.1 w/5 speed (my car). My car has alot more torque which is obvious by the butt-o-meter (used to R&R at a trans shop and drove PLENTY different ones). But it only gets a car length, maybe two, before a 3.4 is all up my a$$.

I have better luck shaming the 305/700r4 guys... But all you have to do is give them a 5 speed and they're gone on me (although it seems like most 305's out there run like $h!t in comparison to my 3.1 which still purred until the day I parked it with 150k on it)

My car is REALLY peppy though. Fun as hell to drive and will still blow the doors off most fart can's any day. I think alot of the quickness off the line has to do with 3.73's and a limited slip.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I've got no experience with LT1 fourth generation cars. All I know is that the stock V6 1998-2002 fourth gen cars out perform many third generation cars and the LS1 cars are considerably faster.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I think the 3rd Gen is such a better looking car, ....and .............let me get my flame suit on!...............I like the ones with the 4bbl feedback carb. I'm still impressed with how well it works. And with a car of this age, I like the fact that when I decide to drop a more potent motor in, I don't have to ditch the TPI intake or spend a lot of time and money on it just to feed a decent breathing motor.
And even with the 305 LG4, it's so cheap and easy to embarrass so many of the supposedly faster cars like 4th gens, C4's, and even C5's driven by mediocre drivers! My daughter's car in my sig ran 13.1's last time out with a 90 shot on the bone stock engine and 3.73 gears, and she's expecting 12.9's now with the newly installed S-10 TC. And it still knocks down 24 mpg overall with the ancient old carb!

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Just finished reading through the myriad of posts already on here, and of course I'm gonna agree that the 3rd gen is my preference. That's a no-brainer! However, there's a couple of things I haven't noticed being pointed out yet in regards to the LT1 powered 4th gens. As the original poster pointed out, the LT1 4th gens are getting pretty cheap to buy. However, there is a couple of problems with the LT1 cars that aren't easy or cheap to overcome. One of the biggest problems with them is the crap Optispark ignition system. You can retro-fit the newer LS1, coil pack style ignition on them, which is vastly better, but it's not cheap or easy to do. The other problem they seem to experience a lot is spun rod bearings. The powdered metal rods are stronger than the old school SBC rods, but they seem to have a problem with the bearings getting spun. This happened to my buddy's 95 LT1, and I've seen countless other LT1 owners have the same problem. Also hope that you don't ever have to replace the gear-driven water pump on one. Not only is it a PITA to replace, it's damn expensive. They resolved a lot of problems when the LS1 was introduced, and that's a very likely reason why the LS1 cars have a higher resale value. My buddy with the 95 LT1 solved his bottom end problem when he upgraded to an Eagle 383 crank/rods kit. He also dropped the coin on a set of AFR heads. However, by the time he went through the motor and made everything much better, it would've been cheaper if he would've just replaced the LT1 with a LS1 out of a wrecked 98-02 4th gen. And he's still trying to round up all the conversion parts so he can get rid of that damn Optispark ignition system! He showed me the receipts for all the work/parts he had for his LT1 rebuild, and it makes me shudder whenever I think about it! I won't argue the fact that his car is a complete animal now, but he sure paid a pretty penny to get it that way.

Patrol32

Can you please, clarify what you meant by saying "If you can only have one car and you have to depend on it, I'd choose something other then a F-body"

What you said kinda made my stomach wanna go sick, and I honestly hope that I miss understood you. I'm planning to rebuid my GTA, and spend around $ 6, 500, on it, assuming that I will end up with a car that would have no problems if daily driven. Note (complete new engine top end, new fuel pump, set of injectors, new wiring, and new bushings for the suspension, and a rebuilt 700R4, exhaust ....etc).., after that been said, I don't want to end up with a car that I cannot depend on. Yes, I do have some problems with it now, and it breaks down all the time, but that's understandable, cause it's 18 years old, but why would I wanna find another car other than F-body, if I get it almost 80% rebuilt.

danziger

You could buy a pretty decent 3rdGen for $3K. 4thGen? Not so much and V6 F-bodys don't really appeal to me unless it's a TTA... IMO, the 3rdGens have much more character than the 4thGens and the LT1 F-bodys are just 'tweeners.

If you had $10K, I'd suggest a LS1 F-body as you wouldn't need to mod it to deliver solid 13s and get great MPG and reliabilty as a bonus.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I can speak from experience on this. The F-body is not a practical vehicle. It's a great weekend cruiser or second car. Using it every day you will quickly see the limitations of the platform. Also on cars with more "racing" style suspension, you'll get tired of the crappy roads rattling hard enough to shake your teeth loose. It's bad enough on stock WS6 cars. There are also ground clearance issues with them even in stock trim. F-bodies also squeak and rattle like hell even under the best of circumstances. Trust me, it gets old.

two85z28s

In your situation, I would recommend getting the car that's in the best condition. Keep an open mind for a 3rd gen or 4th gen. Camaros often live hard lives. They get bought and sold often, get modified, and beat on. Young owners don't always have the money to maintain them regularly or properly. It's a lot easier to find a Buick in good condition.

I've used both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen as a daily driver, year round. They are both fine, especially in the summer. There seems to be more 4th gens with a manual transmission, which you indicated you want. I don't know about v6 cars, but my 4th gen Z28 was much faster than most 305 camaros.

It is true, 4th gens are harder to work on and that means more expensive to maintain, if you don't do it yourself. A waterpump on a 3rd gen can be replaced in an hour or two from under the hood. On a 4th gen with an LT1, its an 8 hour job that's done from under the car. Same thing with spark plug wires: easy on a 3rd gen, not easy/expensive on an LT1.

Lots of Camaro owners enjoy modifying and working on their cars. But, if you want a daily driver, look for a well maintained, unmodified, car without a lot of previous owners. You're more likely to find a 4th gen.

MR.Z

In my opinion, 3rd Gen with LTx or LSx swap all the way. Friend of mine has one and that car is amazingly fast spin your life city lol. You get bad a** looks with modern smooth operating tech under the hood. Ive owned both ls1 and lt1 body 4th gens and have plenty of friends who own fbodies. 4th gens are nice they are comfortable they ride smoother but if an aggressive riding mean looking sports car is what you want. 3rd gen all day... I don't even have a radio in mine yet and im having more fun with this 3rd gen then i ever had with a 4th gen. They get loose much easier the steering is much quicker and it actually lets you feel the road. If your using it for chicks get a 4th gen if you want to experience a sports car get a 3rd. Just know that with 3k you wont find that good of a 4th gen and beware of the failtastic opti!!!! With 3k you can get a really nice clean 3rd gen and still have money for a tune up lol. Working on them at least with a tpi 3rd gen is about the same as a 4th gen. Carbed 3rd gen is a breeze. 4th gens are a liiiiittle bit harder to work on but its not that big of a difference.

PS What ^^^ said about finding a reliable car. Thats concern number one cause you need it for work. Luckily my bosses were understanding when i had my 2nd gen, all the sick days to pull motors out and drop trannys were horrible. Dont let mileage scare you. When it comes to LT1 cars idk why but they seem to run amazing with 130k+ miles. Once your in the 110k mile range the opti and all the other common problems kick in. If it has high miles and cranks up good it should be fine. My friends 94 Formula has a 160k miles never rebuilt all original "AUTOMATIC" mops the floor with all sorts of cars that are said to be "fast" from bottled 5.0s to lightnings and it runs perfect. Others have 170k, 140k and they all run good so dont let that scare you. I almost bought one from a guy cause i drove it all original cranked up perfect drove perfect. Gunned it and it had all its power ready to go but i didn't buy it cause the cluster read 219k miles and i didn't know as much as i do now about them. Stick is funner but automatics tend to be less abused in my search for lt1 fbodies i learned a lot about them. Most of the auto ones run harder cause there less abused. Just my 2 cents...

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Yeah, most people want to spend $10k on a Thirdgen just so they can daily drive it into the ground again.
Realistically, $10k buys a lot of mint condition Thirdgen. Spend that to begin with and you'll probably get a reliable car. But then it'd be a total waste to subject it to the abuses of everyday use.

Without getting too far into it, Thirdgens aren't practical everyday cars. They suck in any kind of foul weather. If you have more then one friend, you're screwed because the back seat is a pain for anyone over age 12. Unless you live in a utopia with perfectly smooth and level streets, ground clearance and stiff suspensions either tear up parts, or rattle your teeth loose. Performance cars attract people that like to drive their cars hard. Factor that with the generally low build quality and a unibody frame, and you have a recipe for a car that breaks all the time, creaks, rattles, and generally drives you crazy. They make a great car for nice weather cruising, and hobby projects, but if you have to climb into them in January when it's -17* out, and drive 15 miles through 8" of snow, you're going to hate life. Now imagine that same weather scenario, but now you've gotta get under the car and change the starter because it died without warning in the middle of winter. Make no mistake, an 18 year old car is never going to be reliable. Is that enough clarity?

In the scope of the original topic, 4th gens really aren't any better, except for not being quite as old.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i don't own a F-body, but i have worked on many of them.
i know the opti-spark distributor, wires and plugs were mentioned, but i didn't notice anyone say anything about the LT1 distributor cap and rotor.
its a very nice piece that GM made, i know its very nice because for the price of one i can do plugs, wires, cap & rotor, ignition coil, ignition module, air filter and an oil change on my L98 for about the same price. then go have a nice dinner.
of course if you like changing the cap & rotor on a LT1. you can buy one of the cheap aftermarkets that may last a year, if your lucky.
did i mention that after i've finished the complete tuneup on my L98 and im eating that nice meal, that your still under the car doing the cap & rotor on the LT1?
my vote would be for a thirdgen followed by a LS1 F-body, after your out of school.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Well an 18 year old car can be made reliable. You just have to replace all the moving parts and electrical components. That's what I'm working on.

Vortec_Formy

wow its never taken me 8 hours to change a water pump on an lt1 and I've owned 3 and they all ran perfect with good maintaining. And ive owned an ls1 but i like the 3rd gen better, to me more unique than the 4th gens cuz they all usually look or sound alike. 3rd gens are ridiculed cars but usually by people that dont understand them. I bought a 91 z28 with 256k on the clock and used it as a daily driver for a year and a half before I sold the motor which is still running in a friends c10. 4th gens are badass but suck to work on and are hard on the wallet it you want to modify whereas you can sink your wallet into a 3rd gen and if done right you'll have a better car than you originally thought. Ive owned an equal number of 3rd gens to 4th gens and I love both, just prefer the 3rd gens character. and the opti isnt hard to change, well at least after the first time lol. and like it was said before most 4th gen 6spd cars are beat on whereas the autos more than likely led an easiar life. Look hard enough and you can find a good deal. I bought a 96 b4c camaro with a rebuilt motor and tranny for 1600 off craigslist here in san antonio, sure it was a damn lucky find but look hard enough and you can find something you like. good luck

SSC

Buy what ever car you like!! Ive have both granted my 4th gen is a 3.4L auto setup but it has T-Tops a great sound system and slightly better fuel economy then my 3rdgen. I do not notice any differences between the rack and pinion steering vs the good old gear box in all other aspects the cars are the same except for power plant. They only thing I dont care for is the long dash its just funky. Yes they are a pain to work on compared to a 3rdgen but thats not somthing that should hold you back from this choice. Chances are your not going to be working on it to often.

Now to toutch on whats up further in the post. My 3.4 auto 4th gen runs ok its not fast but it can hold its own. Ive driven the 3.4's that were backed with a 5 speed those cars move. Ive never taken one to the track but the 3.4 5 speed combo is impressive for what it is and how quick it can move these cars around when driven properly.

OSU Lemon

My friend owns an early '90s Mustang 5.0 Foxbody, and uses it to drive back and forth to school. I believe it's fully stock except for Flowmasters and (according to him) either a modified or new faster shifting tranny. Is this car in the same boat as the Camaro for being a bad daily driver? It seems to work out all right for him, so I dunno....

Also, I live in Oklahoma, so mostly what bad weather we get here is rain or heat waves. Not much snow.

88gta_hiflyer

iTrader: (1)

Yes a mustang is in the same same category as firebirds and camaros as far as practicality goes. The difference is that the mustang is a poor atempt at a "muscle" car for this era. It will always take a backseat to a TA or a camaro. If you are looking for a practical car consider a fuel efficient sedan. If you want a muscle car get an f-body. If you want neither of those, get a foxbody mustang.

Scamo-2.8

iTrader: (16)

Ummm a 4th gen???? Really? I've seen more attractive door stops, actually I'm pretty sure that's what GM designed it after.....

Forget what everybody is saying on here, the pros and cons and all that crap and just buy one as cheap as possible. lol Just think you'll be like me and every one else on here, broke, busted knuckles, and running out of room to put all the spare parts that you might need. lol Make sure you get one with a wing, it's a lot easier to push that way.

Gumby

"what about the 3rd gen Camaro makes it more desireable than the 4th gen?"

Looks, pure and simple.

The 4th gen Firebird/TA s were hot muscle, the Camaro's were are a big fish mouth with a bad botox job,

Why 3rd gen Camaro's are "hotter" not everyone liked that retro fish mouth look, why the 5th gen didn't get it.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Well, yes and no. IMHO the Fox Mustang gets around better in the elements. They're still miserable when it gets really cold, but a 16 year old girl can get one from point A to point B in harsh weather. They sit higher, more ground clearance. The suspension isn't as stiff as a Z28 or WS6 Firebird. The interior is more traditional therefore a bit more practical. You can get a 3-4 adults in a Mustang with a lot less bitching then if you try to seat adults in the back of a F-body.

When it comes to build quality, the Fox Mustangs are late 70's Fairmonts. They're every bit as junk with the added bonus of being older design/technology. With the age, and abuse, they're still a ticking timebomb and will leave you stranded.

Old cars have personality, but they're still OLD CARS. Some people go out and buy new cars every few years because they want the bragging rights or whatever, but most people do it because they don't want to be fighting with some piece of crap in every moment of their free time. I've daily driven thirdgens for over 10 years in about the most harsh environment the US has to offer. For the last 4 years I've been daily driving a Fox Mustang, even with 46k miles, and being a very simple car, it still breaks down on a regular basis. A year ago my brother in law decided he wanted a Fox body... He had and still has no clue how to drive junk, and the first car left him stranded many times. He finally got tired of paying me to fix it and sold the car, it was finally starting to be reliable about the time someone bought it. He had to let it go dirt cheap, and it took 6 months of constant advertising before it finally sold. He's got a 92 now, with less then 40k miles... It doesn't get driven much, but I've already had to fix a bad fan clutch for him. He paid over $9k for that car, it's exceptional but it'll still leave someone stranded at some point because it's 18 years old.

OK still has ice storms, and the occasional snow. While it's not a daily occurrence, it'll still be highly annoying that one or two days a year when it's a concern. It could potentially mean that you're stranded that day... Hope the boss is understanding.

Vortec_Formy

@bad botox job

OSU Lemon

You guys are scaring me a little bit.

As a general rule, do the automatics tend to be more reliable (i.e. less beat on)?

I should mention that both my sister and I both go to the same college, and she uses a Saturn L200 since she lives off campus. She's graduating this semester, so after she uses the Saturn this summer for an internship, she won't need it any more. So if I earn enough over the summer to pay back the parents for the Camaro, I should be able to keep the Camaro and use the Saturn as well. That would solve the daily driver issue, but I'd still have to get through the summer.

Maybe I should find a job that I could bike to if the camaro ever breaks down...

Gumby

Bunch of bitters giving the worse case. J/K

Got my 86 Firebird 10+ years ago now.

$795 2.8 V6 T5 stick

one of the best cars Ive ever owned.
Over 220,000 miles and it still runs strong.
Much more fun then my 305 camaro ever was, much better on gas.

auto or stick doesn't matter, they all get beat. what matters if the person who owned it knew how to drive or not. And if they knew how to work on it right or not. Mine had a 2 owners history, both women, with car guys husbands who took care of it right.

Find one that has been owned by a string of 16yr olds and good luck

Put a 800hp motor in one when your out of school.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Take a look around the various sub forums here... You'll find a ton of people having problem after problem. Those are just the people that are asking for help. Drive through a trailer park or low income housing and notice how many vintage RWD performance cars are sitting in driveways, garages, and backyards broke down. You'll see all the proof you need that these cars are expensive to maintain and require some skill to keep on the road. Better to be scared then to paint yourself into a corner.

In my experience the 700R4 is a HUGE liability. A quality rebuild on a 700R4 costs more then $1,000. Any used 700R4 that hasn't already been rebuilt is going to have the same problems. They really don't like abuse either. The remove/reinstall process isn't one you want to do more then once, and there's no way to know if a used transmission will work until you get it in the car.

The T5 is just as much of a mixed bag. Behind the V8 it's not very strong, weaker then the 700R4. Again they don't like to be abused, and honestly they're rather scarce. 5spd thirdgens make up maybe 20% of total production. If you have to replace one, you can count on paying inflated prices or searching for a long time.

I wouldn't recommend a V6 for anything more then a beater. The reality is that the price is going to be pretty close between a nice V6 and a nice V8. The V8 cars represent a much better value for the money, nearly everything on a V8 car is an upgrade over the V6's. They're also much much much easier to resell (still difficult, but it can be hard to practically give away a V6 Firebird). Also around town a V8 Fbody will get the same gas mileage as a V6. The gas mileage advantage of the V6 only shows up on the interstate.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

160hp and 200 lb/ft isn't going to outrun many 3rd gen v8s.....
And how did he add more than 80 hp....??

OSU, check the OK thread in the regional forums.

Dizturbed One

Drew is right. As I said above, these cars are a big liability for keep you "reliable". Tell someone you'll be there everyday on time, and I'm 99% sure your 3rd Generation F Body will make a liar out of you inside the time span of 6 months... lol

stealtht/a

iTrader: (1)

for me it just comes down to this:
3rd Gens are one of the best looking cars the US ever made. Bonus that its actually fast and fun too.

4th Gen: Just about the stupidest looking car ever made anywhere. easily rivals the pacer and citroens for unappealing, ungainly, derivative uglyness, especially the camaro.

4th gens are only good for stripping