momplo

Ok so first of all I ain't no everyday grease monkey so I don't know much about cars but I'm learning I'm taking a class right now. So that being said, I have a few question for removing and installing a new timing chain. I have a trans am gta 88 350 tpi.

1:Most important, is it doable without taking the engine off the engine bay?
I don't have any way to raise it.

2:What special tools will I need? What kind of puller does it take to take off the harmonic balancer and possibly other pulleys? Do I need another tool just to put it back in?

3:single roller or double roller? I'm not looking for a performance beast, just a tuned up sunday drive. ( no timing gear,thanks)

4:while I'm in there ,what other pieces should I replace (which ones tend to break the most).

5: and least but not all, what reccomandations do you have, any mistakes you have done because no one told you not to?

6o I need to drain the oil out of the engine to do this?

Any help on any of these questions would be extremely helpful and I say a big thanks in advance. The project is not for another month so I'm gathering as much information and as many pieces as I can before D Day.

Atilla the Fun

1: yes. 2: you can rent a damper puller from any auto parts store, or buy one from Harbor Freight. 3: Single roller is adequate, but I prefer to spend the $60 for the StreetRoller from Cloyes, because it's the lowest-cost that isn't Chinese and more importantly, doesn't stretch. 4: Not applicable. 5: It's worth it to remove the alternator for easier access. You do need to drop the front of the oil pan. This adds hassle, but do it anyway. 6: Yes.

momplo

Thanks for your quick answer. I bought cloyes silent chain from rockauto.com and i was wondering, does it tend to stretch a lot? I only drive this car about max 3000 miles a year so I don't think the chain will stretch pretty quick. Next, I need to drain the oil pan then lower the front of the pan? I also heard I had to remove the radiator to make more room. Is it a good reccomandation?

AvantiHall

Yes, remove the radiator, working room. Set engine at top dead center. Pull #1 plug out. bump the starter around till your finger is pushed out (on the compression stroke). Now look at the timing mark and line it up to "0". Use a blanket for the front of the car, you'll be there a while. After you pull it apart, look at the harmonic balancer for a grove. if it can't be sanded out, 200 or 300 grit, hold around surface and spin around. (not in and out). if the grove is too deep, when you get the timing cover gasket, you can get a repair sleeve. Check the water pump, move the fan blade and watch shaft. if in dought replace the pump. Most of the time I don't drop the oil pan down.

Clean all surfaces before putting together, try not to get anything (dirt and gasket) in the pan. Use Ultra gray permitex on the pan to timing cover, 1/4 inch bead, put together and smear with finger across lip of timing cover and pan. Let cure about 30 hours. be sure to install oil seal correct direction and lube seal to balancer surfaces. use your phone and take lots of pictures with flash, the pictures should be take from the start when its all together, and then stages as you come apart. Its hard to remember everything, till you have done hundreds. Make sure you have a drawing of fan belt path. Set bolts in order of parts and done pry apart till you know all bolts are removed, it will be stuck together but will move when pry it easy, look at what your prying on. Is it thick?. look under oil pan to timing cover for bolts, use a mirror. The timing chain should be taken off top and bottom at save time.

Change oil and filter when you completely finished, it will have coolant in the pan, so it will be more than 5 quarts. If the thermostat is 1 or 2 years old, change it. get a premium one.

Dave

slackett66

I used a standard wheel puller on mine

Atilla the Fun

Chain stretch is immediate. First 100 miles will be 90% of the stretching it'll do withing the first 100,000 miles.

novaderrik

just do what we did before the internet was a thing: start taking things apart until you got to what you wanted to change, then try to remember how to put it back together.. half the fun is figuring things out on your own.

ex-x-fire

Also rent a balancer installation tool, don't use the crank bolt to pull it back on, you'll strip out the crank snout.

momplo

Alright good thing: I cancelled my silent chain order and I ordered a CLOYES true roller timing set on ebay for 60 bucks. hopefully this one will prevent stretching over time.

momplo

Alright my timing chain is now installed, but I have a super big problem: My new timing will not go back on. I just can't get it to fit and I was wondering my timing cover came with two rubber band, kind of seals. Do I have to take off the old ones then put in the new ones? I'm confused and time is running short I need help thanks.

8t2 z-chev

IIRC,a 1988 engine uses a 1 piece pan gasket-in that case,if the portion that fits the timing cover is still good,do not use the supplied seals-just reinstall the cover with original seal using a little silicone sealant at the corners to ensure against leaks.Make sure as the timing cover goes back on that the two holes that fit over the locating pins in the block don't get bent-if they do shaft seal will be off-center and you will soon have a leak.Make sure the crank damper is fully seated against the crank sprocket and add a little dab of silicone sealant to the damper keyway so oil does seep along the key to leak between the damper and pulley.

momplo

ok i found the solution to my problem. But after putting everything back together, the car wouldn't start. It just cranked slower and slower and slower until nothing happened.

Now that i took everything off, my timing chain did not seem to have any problems. The problem is I could not get the crank to turn even by hands with the spark plugs off and the serpentine belt off. I took of the camshaft sprocket and then I was able to turn the crank shaft (I didn't do more than a quarter turn) But now I think I made a huge mistake doing so since I can't put the camshaft sprocket back in place with the chain on. Is it possible that I messed up the engine timing alignmement? If so, how do I put it back to it's original setting? By lining up the rotor with the No1 cylinder terminal? I'm completely lost and time is running short.

momplo

I would need a reply as soon as possible or the vbehicle will be towed thanks

momplo

alright update: I reinstalled my new timing chain with the camshaft and crankshaft dots both pointing at 12 oclock. The chain has almost ZERO stretch and im wondering if thats normal. almost have to press really hard to see it bend a little. I can turn the crank manually but only about a quarter turn than it gets stuck. Then I can turn it back another quarter of turn to bring it back to where it was, but no more. I turned the crankshaft with the starter ( while having removed the sark plugs) and I clearly see my chain turning normally. Is it normal? should i go with it, put my spark plugs back in the cylinders and re-install everyhting, praying it will work again?

Im not very good with mechanic yet, so is it possible that i bent a valve?

ex-x-fire

You should be able to turn the engine over(360*) fairly easy w/ all the spark plugs out.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

[Jamie Hyneman]Well, there's your problem![/Jamie Hyneman] As shown in the pic below, the cam dot should be at 6 o'clock and the crank at 12. It's getting stuck because Mr. Piston and Miss Valve are becoming intimately acquainted so, yes, chances of a bent valve are high. I'd start with a compression test and go from there. Also, as a learning experience you may wish to degree the cam. BTW, that is a Cloyes true double roller .

ex-x-fire

You can install a timing chain w/ both marks at 12 o'clock. Infact that how they are set at the factory, and thats where the timing marks need to be to drop the distributor in pointing at #1.

joshc

iTrader: (1)

NO NO NO!
Ex, you are incorrect. Watajob has it right! Timing marks are supposed to face each other cam dot at 6 oclock and crank mark faces 12 oclock. If you don't believe me, reference any of thousands of small block service manuals.
The engine is 180 degrees out of time and will not run.
Hopefully the OP has not bent any valves trying to crank the engine out of time.

ex-x-fire

Cam turns at half of the crank speed, rotate the crank 360* & look at the cam gear, it'll be at 12o'clock, no bent valves.

momplo

alright so cam at 12 or 6 oclock? when I put my engine at tdc (rotor facing number 1 and damper pointing zero on the timing tab) the cam was aligned at 12 oclock so thats how i reinstalled my new chain. Youre telling by putting it back the same way it was, I may have bent a valve? im not saying your wrong, it just doesnt make sense to me since I put it back the way it was. But its worth a try i guess. I'm just not so sure about the 6 oclock tdc, wouldn't that put number one piston on the exhaust stroke and ¸piston 6 on the compression?

ex-x-fire

Dot to dot=#6 cylinder on tdc.
Both dots at 12o'clock=#1 cylinder tdc.
If the cam is lined up this way, you have no fear of bending valves, all you have to worry about is the dropping the distributor in, which sounds like you haven't removed in the first place.
So if you put the chain & gears on the excact same way they came out then you should be ok.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It's easier to SEE correct line-up with the cam dot at 6 and the crank dot at 12; that's why we BUILD them like that.

However, that position is NOT #1 firing; it's THE OTHER instance of #1 TDC that occurs during one complete engine cycle, namely, the end of the #1 exh stroke and beginning of its int stroke, and #6 firing. (#1 & #6 both at TDC; #1 exh valve just finisihing closing and int valve just beginning to open; #6 end of comp stroke and beginnign of power stroke)

You can assemble it EITHER there, OR, both at 12. EITHER way is "correct" and will work fine, AS LONG AS the distributor hasn't been disturbed. Where people take the left turn is, putting one together "dot to dot", then dropping inthe dist pointing at #1; if you do that, each cyl will get spark at the OTHER instance of TDC other than firing, as described above, since that spot is ACTUALLY #6 firing, NOT #1.

In fact, whichever way you assemble it, if you then turn the crank EXACTLY one turn, the crank dot will be back at 12, and the cam dot will be .... the opposite way of what it was.

Momplo, no you will not bend any valves, as long as you have a stock or near-stock cam. The small block Chevy V8 IS NOT an "interference" engine. (in stock trim, that is) You got the other part about #6 compression and #1 exhaust exactly right. However, as long as you didn't disturb the distributor (nice combination of words, that) there is no error.

If your car won't start, there's something else wrong, besides the chain assembly. Put the front of the motor back together, forget about it, and move on. Begin troublehsooting a no-start. Fuel, air, spark, compression. If you've got compression, and you've got fuel anywhere near the right amount, and you've got spark anywhere near the right time, it should at least "run". Might need some tweeeeeking to get it "perfect" (since changing the timing set will affect the cam/crank sync slightly - emphasis on "slightly" - and since the dist is geared to the cam, the ignition timing will therefore also be slightly affected) but it should run.

Stick to the basics. Develop confidence in your own work. Ignore the Internet chatter from the ignorant and stay focused on reality.

85Z28383

Ex is correct, dot to dot is number 6. Maybe some of you other guys should actually read a service manual and build an engine before you write.

joshc

iTrader: (1)

No ...dot to dot #1 at tdc
both dots 12 oclock #1 at top of exhaust stroke.

I guess doing both dots at 12 oclock shouldnt cause any valve issues, as it is essentially like installing it correctly with dots facing each other and turning the crank 1 turn.
It would cause issues it the distributor was removed trying to set initial timing. You would pretty much have the distributor set 180 degrees off if you tries to install it this way.

If you don't believe me, I'm pretty sure Chevy High Performance magazine has installed a few timing chains in chevy 350's and might know how to do it correctly.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...n/viewall.html

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Here's an idea: Follow the instructions included with your part. The Cloyes set referenced above states that whichever key way you chose to use, (2* adv, straight up or 2* ret), you use the 6/12 combo. I used straight up, degreed the cam, (it was a hair less than 1/2 * ret), dropped my dizzy in for #1 and it fired on the 2nd try. That was my personal experience and can't speak for any other. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

joshc

iTrader: (1)

A pic of correctly installed timing set per CHP
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te.../photo_06.html

85Z28383

WTF! Read the article.

momplo

sofa kingdom thanks for the reply, its really helpful but The car was running fine before I put a new chain in it. And since I can not even turn the crank more than a quarter turn, shouldn't I worry about the chain and nothing else? I dont knopw how anything could have gone wrong. I simply put back the new chain and I could not turn the crank by hand. I tried REALLY hard but nothing happened.Maybe some kind of tool should be used? I can not currently play with my car right now since the place where its being held is currently closed. Should I just give it a try , put it back together and try to start it? or would a compression gage really be a good idea to buy? I dont even know if i will be able to reach the spark plug holes with it.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Take the spark plugs out; charge the battery; and turn it over with the starter.

There ARE tools for turning the crank, since if you try to d that with the bolt, there's a good chance of stripping the threads. But don't worry about that just yet.

joshc

iTrader: (1)

I did!
from the article

Begin by making sure that the upper timing gear has the manufacturer's pre-marked timing dot at the 6 o'clock position. Then, in a linear sequence with the upper timing-gear dot, rotate the crankshaft until the same dot or equivalent marking on the lower timing gear is at 12 o'clock. This sets the engine's rotating assembly at Top Dead Center (TDC) and its timing at 0 degrees of rotational advance.Cam gear 6 oclock, crank gear at 12 oclock.
Am I missing something here? this isnt written in Greek is it?

joshc

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to get off topic, to the op.
You say the engine turns 1/4 turn. Does it stop suddenly like there is a mechanical interference stopping the engine?
It could just be your battery is getting low and your starter is to weak to turn the engine. It is not easy to turn a v-8 over by hand anyways.
If you are sure you put the timing chain and gears in properly, I would make sure you give the battery a full charge and try cranking it again.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

What that DOESN'T say, is the part you've decided that since you already know something that doesn't happen to be completely true, you're not ready to learn about:

When the engine is at that point, both #1 AND #6 are at TDC blah blah blah. BUT, it's #6 firing and #1 "valves rocking". Turn the crank exactly one turn from there, the crank dot will be at 12 again but the cam will only have turned 180° so its dot is now at 12, and you're back at #1 and #6 TDC AGAIN, except that this time it's #1 firing and #6 "valves rocking".

Open your mind and let the information flow IN. I'm a teacher part of the time; the hardest person in the world to teach, is NOT the ignorant, or even someone of low intelligence, it's the person who THINKS they already know something BUT THEY DON'T, and refuse to let the REAL knowledge enter their mind. Don't be that person.

85Z28383

Obviously you are missing something. You are a perfect example of why I generally don't even bother to post anything. You go right ahead and drop your distributor in with the rotor facing #1 when you have them dot to dot. I'll just sit back and laugh at you when you start your own thread, "why won't my engine start?"

momplo

thanks for the replys you guys are really great . What I was saying is I can't manually turn the crank more than a quarter turn, but the starter can, I filmed it while cranking with the starter and it started just fine. Anyway I'll try putting the spark plugs back in, give the battery a full day charge and try it again. hope it will work this time. I havew one final question though. At which point can I start the engine just to see if it works and then put everything back together? Does it ABSOLUTELY need oil and antifreeze, or a 2 seconds start-up wont damage anything? Can I just put the timing chain, power steering pump, damper and water pump than crank it with the starter to see if it works? Or do I absolutely have to put everything back together?


Thanks a lot, you guys are great

( I know starting an engine with no oil is stupid, but just to see if it starts)

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It ABSOLUTELY needs oil.

Personally, I'd just put the whole thing back together, put all the fluids in, shut the hood, turn the key, and drive off. There's no point in the "see if it'll run" kind of thing; does more harn than good in fact. Just do it right, and you won't have to worry about whether it's gonna run.

Josh,

Spend less time reading magazines, and more time DOING STUFF. Go learn how an engine works, then build a few motors and come back and tell us what you found.

afremont

Sorry Josh, but don't believe everything you read. Both dots at the top is #1 firing, but it's easier to line up the other way. Either way you do it makes no difference on valve timing in relation to pistons. 180 degrees off is just a spark timing issue that is corrected by resetting the distributor, nothing else needs to be moved.

As long as the OP has done it either way, the valves will be fine. If it pops back thru the intake allot when trying to start, it's probably 180 off and he just needs to pull and reinsert the distributor after rotating it 180. He could just move the wires too, there is no set post a wire belongs on. They just need to be in the firing order and in time with the rotor.

War Story Alert: I once had a rotor that would fit either way on the dist because the pins in the rotor were so badly missized. I just popped it on and it sat right down so I was happy. Now I take the extra time to "just be sure".

joshc

iTrader: (1)

Well sorry if I ruffled some feathers.
I have changed timing chains on small block chevys, an olds 307 and a timing belt on a ford 2.3. I have also build a tractor engine and rebuild countless small engines. It was always align the dots so they face each other on every motor. All started and ran fine when done. From the sounds of it if I had pulled the dizzy on the chevy, I would have been in trouble.
I read a few more articles and will admit I was wrong.
I still do not get why the article from chp indicates when the marks are at 6 and 12
the engine is at tdc and ignition timing is 0 degrees (which would be true compression stroke tdc for #1)
I guess they must have mis worded their statement.

Either way, I admit defeat and will accept my public flogging! LOL

afremont

Because the crank rotates twice for each cam revolution, the #1 is at TDC with both dots at 12 o'clock and with both dots together. It's all in whether it's firing stroke or exhaust stroke.

You had success because you took it apart with the dots together and reassembled it with the dots together. The timing mark on the crank shows the piston at TDC, but it's on the exhaust stroke when the dots are together. If you'd pulled the cap off, you'd see the rotor pointing at the #6 plug wire post.

The first time I changed a timing chain, I also did a valve job so my mechanic friend and I took it all apart. When we put it back together, we put the marks together and aligned the distributor to the #1 plug wire. It back-fired thru the carb allot before we figured it out.

85Z28383

Not one place in that article does it say that dot to dot is number one on the compression stroke. Your thousands of small block service manuals must be special, I've never seen such a thing. I'm guessing you failed reading comprehension.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You're still not "getting it".

It's because at the "dot to dot" point, #1 AND #6 are both at TDC; and ignition timing is (hopefully ... otherwise the engine won't run) at 0° FOR #6. Of course, it would also be at 0° for #1; but instead of being at 0° at the end of the compression stroke, it will be at 0° AT THE END OF THE EXHAUST STROKE.

IOW, you can assemble the timing set at either point, what then matters is, which cyl you orient the dist towards, so that it sends the spark to the right place.

Which therefore means, if all you do is change out the timing set WITHOUT disturbing the distrbutor's relation to the cam, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH OF THE 2 DOT POSITIONS YOU USE. They will both work fine, because the spark will agree with the valve motion.

However, only ONE of them is #1 firing, and it's NOT "dot to dot". Which DOESN'T MATTER for changing out a timing set.

Read less magazine articles and build more motors instead. You'll learn. Don't worry about "ruffle feathers", except to the extent that it's REAL IRRITATING when people who DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING post stuff that's WRONG and insist on arguing about it because they thought they "read it in a magazine".

afremont

Speaking of reading comprehension, did you even read the part of his post that you quoted? He knows how it works and admits that he was mistaken.

85Z28383

No, he does not understand. By his own admission he does not understand. He's blaming the error on the article.

afremont

I already saw what you really wrote before you changed it Mr. Knowitall, that's how the notification stuff works. I'm not wrong; you're the one that isn't getting it. BOTH DOTS GO AT 12 o'clock for #1 to be on compression/firing position.

EDIT: This is how you make edits, that way nobody calls you out. The OP obviously now understands this. The article says to align the dots together. So does practically everything else out there. Look at what Milodon says:
http://www.milodon.com/instructions/timing-chains.pdf

They don't bother to mention that #6 is the one firing now, why not?

afremont

You send me another vulgar PM again 85z28383 and I'll post it right here, assuming I don't change my mind and do it anyway. If you want to chastise me, do it publicly. For a newbie, you really have allot of nerve.

Now back to topic. For the final time, the OP knows he was mistaken he just didn't understand why the magazine said what it said. He assumed (and it's really a valid assumption) that the mag was telling him how to put #1 ready to fire, but that's not what they do. They tell you to do it in a manner so that you can see if it's off a tooth or not. Even the milodon pdf doesn't tell you that you are aligning it to #6, but that's exactly what they have you do. It's an easy mistake to make.

85Z28383

When did I ever say anything different than BOTH DOTS GO AT 12 o'clock for #1 to be on the compression stroke. What I said was that dot to dot would be number six on the compression stroke. Tell me how that is wrong.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Listen to Sofakingdom

afremont

Ok, that's correct. The OP was confused and assumed that by following the directions (that everyone gives) he would be setting it up for #1. Once he figured that out, he was a little confused on the 2:1 relationship of the crank and cam/distributor. He admitted that he went and researched and found the TRUTH. He just wanted to know why the magazine wouldn't tell the whole story.

Frankly, I wonder the same thing. I made the same friggin' mistake the first time I did it some time around 1978. After we tried switching the distributor 180 degrees, it fired up. We didn't understand how that could happen. We thought dots together was firing on #1 too. The hard thing was that we couldn't run to the Internet to get our answer.

EDIT: Since you just won't let a dead horse lie, so I'll answer your question more clearly. I said you were wrong, because you said "I find it interesting that you continue to to defend him when you were obviously wrong yourself. This is an argument you can not win." That's why I went off with the Mr Knowitall junk. I knew I was right, and I didn't like what you said very much. I really didn't like what you said in the PM, care to apologize?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

OK, let's all forget that the guy that read a magazine article once ever posted anything, and get back to the issue at hand.

I WILL add, I have no clue why that one minor detail seems to get left out of just about EVERY write-up on the subject. I've noticed that too. However after about the 4th or 5th motor I built, back in the mid 70s I guess, and struggling it seemed like FOREVER to get em running like everybody else, I actually PAID ATTENTION to one as I assembled it, with the heads and the full valve train on but not the timing cover yet; and lo! when the dots were together, the #8 exhaust was FULL OPEN, which means the engine was 90° of crank rotation before #8 TDC on its exhaust stroke, which means #1 WAS AT TDC ON ITS EXH STROKE. (since of course, whatever #8 is doing NOW, #1 just did the same thing 90° ago) I said, ... "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm" (well not really, but I can't post here what I REALLY DID say). Turned the motor until I saw the #1 intake open, then watched it close, then the piston come back to #1 TDC again.... so THIS TIME I KNEW IT WAS AT #1 FIRING FOR SURE. And lo! the dots were both at 12:00!!! So after that I started paying attention to EVERY ONE I built, and lo and behold! EVERY SINGLE ONE was like that. So after about 6 or 8 more, I quit bothering to pay attention, and for the last 35 years or so I just build them dot-to-to BECAUSE I CAN SEE THE ALIGNMENT MOST EASILY AND ACCURATELY AT THAT POINT, then turn the crank one full turn (both dots up), then stab the dist pointing to #1, then after I finish assembling everything else and put the fluids in and put the breather on and shut the hood, I reach in the window and turn the key and they START RIGHT UP EVERY TIME. Haven't YET seen a timing set, NOT ONE, wherein dot-to-dot was #1 firing.

But I digress....

Original poster, did you finish putting the car back together and get it running?

joshc

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for sticking up for me afremont.
I thought admitting my mistake like a man would be worth something.
I understand how an engine works, I have likely worked on more than the person bashing me. I am actually glad I was able to be involved in this thread as I learned a valuable piece of information. I will be building a 350 for my 86 Trans am, and this likely saved me putting my distributor in backwards and wasting alot of time figuring it out the hard way.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes Josh, admitting your mistake is the right thing to do and takes a bigger man than just being stubborn, I apologize, I didn't notice that it was somebody else that had re-started the argument. My bad.