Kerch5

Hello,

I have a rather stock 1991 camaro rs (made in Canada) with a 305 tbi and i believe a 2.73 rear. I have upgraded it with a new 3 in exhaust (still need headers), new hypertech chip, wires, plugs, tune-up stuff, and all body work / new paint is completed. I am a college kid and really don't have the time or funds to do a 350 swap. So, i'm wondering what you guys recommend i do to improve the quickness of my car with $1,500. Thanks in advance guys! (tired of loosing to my uncles 82 crossfire 305 z28 and random honda civics). runs high 15's at the track

Pic of what im working on:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=3&theater

hdis2002

iTrader: (1)

Get the headers.

Kerch5

Thanks, ya i have a set just need installed, any other suggestions?

s10sbc350

Umm just a sugesstion but if the exhuast is 3in duals then thats way to big for your motor, and if it's single 3in it didnt help on performance much. If it were my car i would buy a rear end from drum to drum off a camaro with like 3.42 gears or 3.73s if it's automatic, you can find one on craigslist under $200. Then maybe swap out tbi for a carb and go with eddy intake like performer eps, and a 600 or 650 holley carb. Also 1.6 roller rockers are a good upgrade.

s10sbc350

By the way a gear lke 3.73s will make it feel alot faster and give it more get up and go, and not hurt mpg much. Also a cam is by far the #1 upgrade if you have the experience to install it or pay someone even.

Kerch5

Maybe the exhaust is smaller, not sure it a stainless steel flow-master setup, the rear end i was just going to take it to a shop and have them put in 3.73s. i did some reading and people say to stick with the tbi, i wont get much of a hp increase with carb ( even tho i have everything, edelbrock performer rpm, 650 holley, shorty headers, would need a distributor ) i would rather go carb because its much easier to deal with. Thanks for your suggestions btw.

Dakota W.

A well tuned carb will run the same, if not better than a tbi or fi setup. If you went carb I would do a cam as well. Comp cams has some nice off the shelf grinds, just don't go cheap.

Kerch5

Thanks for the help, Another question i have is can i make my stock rear end posi? or do i have to buy a new rear end? thanks guys

zraffz

I'd do full exhaust. If you are talented with a welder you can do the entire thing for under $400 with headers. Id do gears next. Whatever I had left I'd save up for a 350 swap.

Kerch5

can i use my stock open differential and make it a 3.73 limited slip? like buying a auburn differential and so forth?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aub-542040

thanks, new with the rear end mechanics.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Yes you can. It's probably better to pick up a used one. If your 10 bolt doesn't hold, that $400 right down the drain.

s10sbc350

Best bet for rear end with 3.73s is to buy one off craigslsit for under $250 and when you go check it for the gear ratio you dont even have to remove diff cover and here is how to check ratio.
If it's not posi you put a mark like a piece of duct tape on a part of tail where driveshaft would connect, then a piece on axle end where wheels mount. Then have someone hold the left wheel hub as you spin the right side wheel and count the reveloutions of shaft and wheels and when you did two complete reveloutions with wheel if the driveshaft did 3 3/4ths revolutions then they are 3.73 gears. If it's a posi rear end then do the same but only spin the wheel hub 1 whole complete time.
This is correct and almost spot on but if its around 3ish it could be 3.08s or 3.42s but usually if you are good at eyeing stuff you can tell which it is closer to.

s10sbc350

Ummm ??? I dont see why a exhuast tops getting better gears in the rear end, lol it might sound better but it will not improve performance much just the headers might add a few ponies not noticable enough though. Unless it's to big of an exhuast on it then it would be exhuast time but if it's a 3in single exhuast then id say rear end first still but if its 3in dual then get that fixed for sure untill you hit 550hp then it would be rite. Just go measure it from top to bottom inside pipe and it is probably a 2.5 or 2.75

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

install your headers, get a rear with better gears and a posi already in it,

if its an auto your not gonna want more than 3.55's, i would personally go 3.42 in the rear, 3.73's are way too steep for a near stock L03 Auto car

if its a T5 i would go 3.73's

that brings you down to about 1,250 unless you have someone install the rear,

lets say you have 1k left

next would be a cam swap, get an LT1 cam($35-$50) and some new springs and lifters

now you have $900 maybe $850

before you install that cam, it's time for some head work or swap on some better heads(nothing too serious, we are looking for a stout 305), as swirl ports are generally accepted as terrible

for grins we will say you bought some decent used heads and drop you down to $400

whats left since you have the motor torn down doing heads and a cam?

INTAKE, stick with TBI if you know how to tune(or want to learn) and get a decent intake

if not switch to carb(buy used on the cheap)

that should take up the rest of your cash(tuning equipment can be had for under $150, intake between $150-300) so you are set

there you go, i spent all your money for you

FRMULA88

How fast do you want to go? $1,500 won't get you far.

IMHO Save your money for a LS swap and 12 bolt rear end. YOU ARE ABOUT 1/8 THE WAY THERE.

Anything you spend on a 22 year old TBI 305 will be a waste of time & money and it will never be that fast.

Dakota W.

Don't listen to this.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

did i mention, once all that is done, its time to save up for a shift kit and stall(again if its an auto)

then beef up your suspension, Since Suspension wont be a "waste of money on a 305"(not my words, i like the 305's for what they are) you could even start from that point

FRMULA88

LOL ,why not ? is it because THE TRUTH HURTS??!!

A 180 HP TBI engine. That works out .59 HP per cubic inch.

1,500 $ won't get you far in the speed game


A 100-125 HP nitrous kit + labor will blow this budget... but this will be the best bang for the buck for an otherwise stock engine.

305 HP on the gun = 1 HP per cu in.. that is much better than anything else you can do.. and the car is still economical.. the only expense will be refilling the bottle and running premium fuel..


A 3.73 rear end swap will also wake up the performance, but you still have the crappy 7.5 rear end.. so it will eventually fail.

A full rear end swap would be the smarter thing to do. (12 bolt or 9") but will blow this budget.


Now the problem is when you start making more HP (going faster) you need sub-frame connectors, better brakes, if the car is old rebuild the suspension etc etc..

so the key questions you have to ask yourself are: what are your long term plans for the car & how fast do you want to go?

FRMULA88

I have owned my car since 1993.

I bought it while in college... 305 TBI car... T-tops, blah, blah ,blah,

KEY thing is I drove IT stock, until I finished school. Then I started working, making money and started to modify it.


Had N20 on the 305 for a few years, that was instant gratification.
305 HP low 14 / high 13 sec. 1/4

Switched the 305 to a 383 in 2000.
465 HP best ET 12.16 @ 111.42

Switched the 383 to a 421 in 2012.
680 HP best ET to date 11.13 @ 121.37. running on 7 cylinders... will be in the 10s soon enough.

Many other parts had to be changed along the way... rear end, transmission, etc, etc.

Initial purchase price in 1993.... 4,900 $
How much have I spent in 20 years... ALOT MORE THAN 1500$

I think I know what I am talking about...

Dakota W.

The truth is something that you are FAR from. What you said was ditch the 305. Do you know why the 305 tbi doesn't make any power? First off, it has a peanut cam. Second off, the heads don't flow very well. A heads and cam swap is all it takes for a 305 to make good power, more than what an ls1 makes stock, in fact. The OP already has the intake and carb, all he needs is the heads and cam. Yes, gears are important too, but he'd still only be working with 180hp, if that.

Ask mw66nova how much power his 305 made.

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=Dakota W.;5596672]The truth is something that you are FAR from. What you said was ditch the 305. Do you know why the 305 tbi doesn't make any power? First off, it has a peanut cam. Second off, the heads don't flow very well. A heads and cam swap is all it takes for a 305 to make good power, more than what an ls1 makes stock, in fact. The OP already has the intake and carb, all he needs is the heads and cam. Yes, gears are important too, but he'd still only be working with 180hp, if that.

Ask mw66nova how much power his 305 made.[/QUOTE

Not more that 350 HP I am pretty sure. the stock 2 barrel TBI can't provide enough fuel to make anything more.

LOL some of you guys are simply deluded.

This small bore, smog era engine had it's purpose, it was not built for high-performance, eventually you will hit the performance wall, and all the time and money spent on this boat anchor would have been better invested in bigger engine.

best bang for the buck is N20 kit because you can remove it and use it on something else... 305 engine parts are 305 specific you can't used them on a 350, 400 etc.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

423fwhp caluclated based on mph and weight.

it was carb'd though.

also cost more than 1500 on upgrades.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

the problem with this logic is, not everyone is out to build a full blown race car,

if you want to beat 12 second cars, your money is best put into a 350, and if you have the funds it would be best to do it in LS form

now, if on a budget, and just looking for fun and not to be stomped on by an econobox, why not build whats in the car? not everyone has the ability to yank a motor out of the car, be it space or tools

money is only wasted if you didn't enjoy building and running the car, sure everyone wants to be the fastest of their friends, but not everyone has the ability to do it right now.

s10sbc350

[quote=FRMULA88;5596686] You are way off bro, for one he never said he wants a 10second 1/4 mile car now did he? He simply said he has $1500 to spend on upgrades with what he has and he knows he wont make 800hp and thats fine because not everyone can afford it but 300hp daily driver can still be fun. So just keep your comments that are stupid to yourself as no one wants to here the

Dakota W.

[QUOTE=FRMULA88;5596686]You obviously did not even read what I typed. I said that the OP said he has a carb intake and carb he can put on it, not a tbi. And 305 heads work just fine on 350s.

[QUOTE=s10sbc350;5596836]Not sure who you're talking to.

Kerch5

haha well thanks for all the suggestions guys, s10sbc350 understands what i ment. I just have 1,500 - 2000 dollars and want to make my car faster, its never seen snow, has 80,000 miles, drove 3-5 times a year (1992 3.1 firebird daily driver) and my family / friends don't no much about engines. So upgrades are often paid for at a shop. The lt1 camshaft and new heads sounds like a good idea, how hard would it be for me to find a comp chip in order for these upgrades to work?, and the stock rear-end only needs to hold up to 300-350 hp if that. Thanks again guys and it seems like everyone has a 350, wouldn't mind having a quick 305 that would surprise some people until im out of college. Yes it does have flowmaser y into duals 3 inch

zraffz

Your inside diameter is 2.5-2.75"? I've owned quiet a few of these cars and the y pipe is defiantly not 2.5".

s10sbc350

[quote=Dakota W.;5596843][quote=FRMULA88;5596686]

You obviously did not even read what I typed. I said that the OP said he has a carb intake and carb he can put on it, not a tbi. And 305 heads work just fine on 350s.

OOOPs lol i meant that for the other guy that you qouted i guess, i think i mixed up the quotes lol sorry about that one.

s10sbc350

What are you talking about the y pipe? I said for him to measure his exhuast pipes to see what size they are, not what size the y pipe he has on it lol where did you get that from?

s10sbc350

Ok, well bro I am just going to say this, if you keep getting all these choices for upgrades it's just going to overwelm you and i would suggest finding what you plan on doing to it, then posting it and we can tell you the costs so you can get er done, also metion if you can perform the mod or would be paying a mechanic, this should sum up the best way to get it done rite lol.

3rdgenlewis

I'm kind of in the same boat as you, it's hard to get good advice when people are so set on switching to a bigger displacement engine, ask for help on your 305 and you'll get "use it for scrap to fund a 350", why? My car has 68,000 original miles, and a freshly rebuilt 700R4.. Why not have some fun with the setup inside the car?

I guess I'm just going to do heads, cam, and intake. It's an LO3 that was converted to carb, so that parts done haha.. Using a 600 edlebrock, going to try a Lunati cam, ported heads, and a victor JR or a performer RPM intake.. Working on my exhaust right now, some shortys from Jegs, to the stock Y pipe for now, back to a borla single in dual out. Eventually wanna just do true duals.

I just see no reason to swap the perfectly good running motor in it, which I'm sure can see upwards of 350 HP with this setup of H/C/I, throw NOS at it and shes over 400... for a 350.. when I'm going to be aiming for the same thing and it will cost me the same amount of money, in my area.. Not to mention I gotta pull the motor, and swap another one in.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

You could mail order one that would bring you in the ballpark of where it should be and learn how to tune from there, Tuned Performance on here sells chips burned to your mods, most people hate mail order tunes but its atleast a good start

You could choose to go carb and then computer tuning is a non issue anyway, but I'm an FI fan so if a car came with it I try to keep it

All up to you, my run down should give you a good place to start, you just need to research what heads cam and intake you really like

s10sbc350

If you know how to install the heads and cam, then yes by all means go for it and Im sure it will be money well spent but if you cant then it could get costly and you should re search it and call about prices first and I wouldnt have jim bob that lives next door to you do it either lol

Dakota W.

+1 for Tuned Performance.

zraffz

Because even if your exhaust is 6" in diameter, your stock y pipe would make your larger diameter pipe pretty much null.

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=s10sbc350;5597062][quote=Dakota W.;5596843][quote=FRMULA88;5596686]

You obviously did not even read what I typed. I said that the OP said he has a carb intake and carb he can put on it, not a tbi. And 305 heads work just fine on 350s.


305s have a 3.750 bore... 350s have 4.00 bore
so yes you could bolt on small bore head onto the larger bore block, it will work...very poorly because the 305 heads are still based on the small bore 305 design. (hint the OD of the combustion chamber off by 1/4 inch !)


You say not everyone has the time space or money to work on engines but you want the OP to replace heads, cams etc... you are half way there to just pulling that 80s junk motor and replacing it.

I would not waste any money on a boat anchor, only because I have been there done that... save your money and do it right the first time.

Most of you kids are still too wet behind the ears to get it...

these cars are old enough now that ones which have never been restored have well over 150,000 miles, the power trains are reaching the end of their useful life. Start hot-rodding a tired car and bad things begin to happen.

s10sbc350

[quote=FRMULA88;5597394][quote=s10sbc350;5597062][quote=Dakota W.;5596843] I agree with him on the part about the motor being tired then upgrading it and beating on it will not have a good outcome, but if it's in good shape and has good compression, then I say go for it.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

man...can you guys pay a little more attention when you're quoting people? i can't figure out where one person's thoughts stop, and another's start.

FRMULA88

Just like real life there are more dreamers than doers...very few will actually have the desire & passion to follow thru on their dreams.

Most are content to aspire to mediocrity... aka.. averageness.

I can point you in the right direction the rest is up to you.. I never said build a 10 second car like I did...

There is nothing special about a smog era 305..Camaro they are a dime a dozen..

You can pile all the bolt-on engine parts you want on the engine but it will never be more than a tired old car with some new "speed parts".

Then something important will need attention like the brakes, front end, shocks, struts, tires, etc. and you will wish you had spent the 2,000 to make the car safe & reliable before trying to make it fast.

try learning to walk first... then you can bolt your 305 heads to a 350

Dakota W.

Haha, a boat anchor? The 305 is a great motor, sounds great too. It may only be a 2bolt main, but that's still enough to hold over 400hp. You old farts are afraid of a little work and just want to be lazy. There is doing it right, and there is overkill. Saving up for a 350 is overkill. Why does he need a 350 when he could make decent power, for less money, on a 305? Why can't he build the 305 right? I swapped my blown-up 305 for a 350 in a garage, in my apartment complex, that was barely bigger than the car. I never said space or time was an issue. You need to learn to read and stop putting words into my mouth, it's getting old quick. It's a smallblock chevy, not a ford, so don't pull the BS about the 350 having more parts available for it. Why in God's name would he want a 700hp 4bolt 350 anyway?

Oh, and bore doesn't seem to be an issue with the correct heads. Like you said, do it right the first time.

FRMULA88

If was 25 years younger and had 2,000 to spend on "upgrades" to my first car this is what I would do:

Rebuild the front end : struts, strut perches, springs, tie rods, pitman arm, center link, lower ball joints, and control arm bushings... it I wanted to splurge I would get tubular control arms. otherwise I would clean & repaint the OEM control arms

New brakes : upgrade to slotted rotors and better pads, new calipers. new wheel cylinders, hardware & drums if rear drum.

Replace the water pump, alternator, & plastic tank radiator.

Replace the fuel pump.

Replace the power steering pump

If the exhaust is rotted out replace with 3" collector & y pipe... SLP kit or equal.

4 new tires

At this point I am out of money... but I did all the labor myself except for tire balancing & mounting. The car is safe & reliable and can be driven while money is saved to upgrade the engine./ rebuild the trans & upgrade the rear end.

meanwhile I would read books on building small block Chevy engines to understand why 305 heads on a 350 block is a cheap swap for demo derby guys but not such a good idea for a stout street /strip car.



Replace the exhaust

Dakota W.

Don't fix what isn't broken. Why are you replacing parts that are working properly? That's a waste. The only justifiable things to replace would be the front end, I agree with that. And the brakes if it's time for new pads anyway, same for the tires. But why are you replacing the engine accessories if they're working properly? fuel pump?

FRMULA88

LOL if the 305 is such a great motor... WHY DID YOU BUILD A 350?!!! try reading what you wrote.

I REALLY MUST HAVE OVERKILLED MY COMBO WITH DART BLOCK....

NOT LAZY BOY,,,, JUST OLDER AND WISER. but you will learn.

some of you pups have to do it the "hard way", have fun with that.

If you think a OEM GEN 1 350 4 bolt main block was even remotely designed to handle 700 HP you got a lot more learning to do,

FRMULA88

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ck_comparison/


for your edification.... a 2 bolt OEM block was designed for 360 HP ... doubling the main bolts does not double the HP rating...

you have cylinder wall thickness,, deck thichness, etc, .

no worse feeling than building a project with a stock block and having the head studs puke coolant into the oil... despite sealing the treads with rtv... fixing the problem with Barsleak is crappy solution to a major deign flaw of the stock block.

I will never used a stock block for a race engine ever again.

Dakota W.

If you'd learn to read you'd see that I said I blew up the LB9. I swapped in a 350 because I found the whole engine for $400 and it had good main and rod bearings. I'm only looking to make 400hp. The race engine will be the twin turbo lb9. The 350 is temporary while I upgrade the car to handle the TTLB9, then it's going into a '72 Camaro split bumper that I'm going to restore, but I'm not going to hijack the OP's thread, I have my own, so let's get back to topic.

FRMULA88

A used car that is over 20 years old with high mileage & "mostly original parts" is a ticking time bomb.. all these parts are worn at the end of their useful life.

We used to call this the "nickel" & "dime" death because every few months you would spend 50 or 100 bucks to fix the car to keep it running.

I would rather have a 20 year old "slow" car that is mechanically perfect than a rednecked special that is constantly in need of repairs..

besides if the plan is to keep the car and restore it.. you are going to replace the worn out parts sooner or later... either preventative maintenance or when you break down at the side of the rode... I don't need to take my tool box with me... just start up and go

Dakota W.

The recommendation is 360 hp. I've seen 2bolts handle over 500 on the dyno. Also, I don't fix parts, I upgrade them when they break.

The OP's goal is high 12's or low 13's. There is no reason for him to spend 5k on a motor when his 305 can do that no problem without even touching the bottom end, and having the correct gearing.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

lol, this argument never ends, haha.

young guy: i wanna build a fast 305
old guy: don't waste your money or time
young guy: no really, i think it'd be cool
old guy: you're an idiot
young guy: your're an old hag
blah blah blah.

look, as one of the faster 305 builders on this board, i will say this: some people won't learn the easy way, or listen to the experience of other. i was definitely one of those people. because 305's are basically thrown away, i was able to obtain, and build several and was a great learning experience for me. i believe it made me a better, more rounded hot rodder as a result. could i have gained the same experience utilizing a 4" bore motor? yes. would i take it all back? no.

at the end of the day, it's his money, and if he wants to blow it on a small bore motor, AFTER you've told him the cons of such a task, then let him do that, and don't lose any sleep over it

FRMULA88

I sleep like a baby...

Who know's, one day I might listen to my elders and graduate to a big block ! but it's too much fun playing with a big cube "small block"

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

or an ls motor

your mentality about that is IDENTICAL to the OP and all the 305 advocates in this thread