Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Oh, all right - got it! Now there's something new to me.

Thanks for the heads-up! I'll match up the gasket with the deck and see what it looks like then...

HINKSON AUTO

Match the holes in the deck with the gasket!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

What is normally used to grind the holes larger in the deck if needed?

Haven't had a chance yet to see how the gasket matches, just want to be prepared...

HINKSON AUTO

A die grinder works fine and a carbide bit, Grind the holes at a slight angle as it will save you a lot of time.

When the machine shop plate honed your block they should have caught that.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Do all gaskets do that? I ran cometics on mine, forget the part number, and never noticed anything odd. I thought you were talking about modding the gasket side holes, not the block

skinny z

I was re-reading your thread and came across this.
Most of the SBCs I've worked with have had a misalignment with the rocker tip to valve stem tip contact. AFR, Brodix, RHS, OEM all had issues to some degree. You can argue that as long as the rocker tip doesn't actually run off the valve tip then all is good (or reasonably so).
I've got pics of one instance where it was extreme. The only way to bring it back was by using adjustable guide plates similar to what you've come across. There's a knack to getting them just right but from what I've gone through with valve guides lately, it's worth every bit of effort to get the valve train geometry spot on. The only issue I had with using them was the pushrod hole cast into the head was 7/16ths and not the customary 1/2" which resulted in a binding situation between the guide plate and the head. Opening up the hole in the head eliminated that issue. I doubt though that your AFRs will have that kind of problem either with a heavy misalignment or a pushrod pinch.
Great build.


The pics below are before any adjustment with the rocker untensioned. Although there's a 2-piece guide plate in place, this is where the rocker ends up using a 1-piece and the adjacent rocker/valve in a centred position.

skinny z

This after an adjustment using the 2-piece guide plates.
The last picture shows the effect on the pushrod as a result of the binding.

HINKSON AUTO

Yep pretty common!!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I did a quick search on the web for Dart Little M coolant holes, and came up with quite a few threads from you on this. Seems you're pretty darn experienced with these Dart blocks and machine work in general - and judging by how old some of those posts were. And yeah, it would have been real nice if they had at least mentioned that at the machine shop. -They've done quite a few of these Dart builds…they had another Little M block aside from mine in the shop being built.

I'd think grinding these holes would have been better done before the final block cleaning and assembly. So now I might need to deal with trying to flush out shavings from the cooling system….not good.

At first, I thought just like Orr did…making the gasket match the deck, not the opposite. But looking closer at the pic you posted…not the case.
Soon as I have a day off here, I'll lay the gasket on the thing and take a pic..

Skinny - Thanks a lot for the insight on those guide plates! Those pics are helpful. I now see the reason for the two piece guide plates…guess I'll be trying those then.

I'm sure AFR has the same issue…or any head in which they are trying to stuff the biggest possible intake valve into. Even the IE's I had on it before had that issue to a lesser degree.

I just hope I can correct it like you did, and hopefully the push rod holes in those AFR heads are big enough to allow for the offset without the push rods scraping on the edge of the holes…that would suck if they rub….

-A lot of great things I should look out for here. I appreciate the tips from everyone.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

On my 195 heads i had no problem getting things to align using stock afr guideplates and 5/16 .080 wall pushrods. Definately need to measure proper length. My guess is it should be 7.35-7.40". Stock is 7.20", a decked block and possibly smaller base circle cam could change that like mine did

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Yes - I have .080 thick walled pushrods and test springs -and length checker. I assume these 2 piece guide plates are AFR's stock guide plates - since that's what they sent me.

I for sure plan to verify I have the right pushrods...Especially since this block's been decked - the last one might have been too, but checking is pretty straight-forward…

On a totally different topic, I'm real concerned if my set of Dyno Don's headers and Y-pipe will play nice with the Canton 15-244 oil pan I'm gonna try to run…I can see that as being a possible nightmare...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If his y runs in front like a stock oil pan and stock y, it will be an issue. Gotta run under trans/flexplate area

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Don PM'd me a pic of his standard Y Pipe bolted up using the Canton oil pan I'm getting….it was a tight fit…but it fit.

I'm a little concerned because what I run into is the end of it where it attaches to my test pipe (CAT) just hits my frame in the area….and that was with the other pan though.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

OK - decided to see how this head gasket matches the cooling ports on this Little M block…and it's exactly like HINKSON said it would match in the center cooling ports…it doesn't quite line up…here's some horrible pics:

I outlined where it does not line up with a sharpie pen…should have done that AFTER I took pics…makes it harder to see..

I also noticed this:
It's an open port that goes to the oil galley…mis-matched. Important or no??

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

What do you use to elongate those cooling passages on the block deck?? I'm having a hard time finding anything that's carbide….I found a rotary cylinder filing bit at the Ace down the street, but it's only carbon steel and meant for PVC or wood…I doubt it would last 5 minutes.

Harbor Freight doesn't seem to carry them either…so I checked Summit and they have these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-85127/overview/

Is that what I need?

I can only find grinding stones and round hand files at the local stores…I'd be filing all weekend using those….

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Look up carbide burrs. Sum-900643 is what i use for various steels and irons

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Subd.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Looks good so far. Not sure on all that grinding on a fresh deck. I'd have to ask my engine builder on that. If you want his number pm me.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Xpndbl - in having second thoughts on grinding on this block too. I mean, Orr's already said he's seen no real issues keeping it as is....and on the other hand, I don't doubt those ports really should match.

I guess I'm a bit disappointed that Dart didn't correct this. I want an answer from the people that casted this block - Dart. I'm going to call them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont recall if my shp block was mismatched or not. I believe i ran an old felpro mls on it and then cometics with no issues. That was when i wasnt aware of the gasket issue so i didnt really check. My motor runs warmer but it does have a slightly smaller rad than stock and it is twin turbo with alot of extra heat sources so i dont think it was a gasket water hole issue

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I'm surprised you can get away with running a small radiator plus the turbos and not overheat really….must be tuned just right!

I'm not sure if the SHP blocks have the same issue with the center cooling ports not matching...

HINKSON AUTO

Justin's block is a SHP block not a Little-M block big difference in the decks where the water holes are concerned.

I deal with a lot of Dart blocks and I automatically do that as part of the block prep. Shame on the shop for not doing there work. When machining a performance block everything and I mean everything has to be check.

Save your dime and deal with it!! Here is a pic of a GM block where GM never drill the center hole in the deck for the Performance head gaskets, I sure did not call GM and ask them why the left the holes out when processing the blocks and its not all GM blocks either.

Same with the BBC there is a water hole missing on some of the decks that have to be machined in.

Again blame the shop for doing a half a$$ job.

Did the shop that did the work even chamfer the bottom of the cylinders so the pistons would not get damaged if they hang out of the bores at BDC?

HINKSON AUTO

Here is a pic of the SHP and SHP PRO's deck, No issues with those cooling holes.

1gary

Absolutely.Call Dart.Internet advise does have it's limits.Modify the block,you then really own it.
Post what Dart says.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Hey...I'm not questioning whether Hinkson is right or wrong, and judging by what he's said to look for, he's dealt with these Dart blocks before.

But on the other hand, I don't expect ANY professional machine shop to say the other does anything better than they do...after all, it's THEIR profession and livelihood here. I don't hear Packer fans saying they love what the Chicago Bears do!

But my short block is already assembled...but to say my local machine shop half-a$$ed my motor...I can only take that as a bash me for not picking "his" shop....ouch.

I could have missed it, but on the web search I did about the cooling holes, I only found threads that Hinkson or "Carl" was involved in saying to grind these holes bigger.

So I want to call Dart and ask them about it. I'd think if it were real important they would either change the casting or mention it with their other block preparation instructions. Again, not doubting, but verifying....it's my money at stake.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

A TIP: always cut/work on the cheapest part...it pays off

blocks stick around..gaskets come and go..

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Well I know my guy builds some of the fastest 23 degree stuff in the area if you need a second opinion ever.

HINKSON AUTO

Try running it with the water restricted and let me know how that works out. The 2 little notches between 1&3 and 5&7 were never machined until a few years ago.

Like I asked did the shop that did your work even chamfer the bottom of the cylinders after boring and honing and area that is over looked!!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Carl does alot of these blocks. He did my motor and rotator. I trust his opinion.

I wasnt sure if lil m decks were different than shp but apparently so. Water will pass thru that gasket mismatch but it would be best to have no interference there. You can easily clearance it assembled if you are careful.

My car runs 220 at times in traffic in summer which is factory range but hot to me. Highway its 190-200. Cold days it will barely get warm lol

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well it's pretty obvious you've either misinterpreted my intent by me verifying this with Dart, or you're being arrogant. Which one?

If you think about it for one minute, in NO POST about the info and tips you've been so kind to provide am I questioning that you don't know what you're talking about. I said you seem to be knowledgable on Dart blocks, and most likely engine machining…I don't know you personally though AT ALL. Don't take it the wrong way.

Now let's pretend you're the one that machined my Dart block, and I find out YOU didn't port match the cooling passages on the deck. I know, sounds impossible, but let's just pretend. I also tell you I found that out from a guy on the internet.

I can almost bet you're going to do one of two things:

1. Roll your eyes and tell me "oh you're one of those guys",
-or-
2. Get P'd off and maybe ask me to leave…

that's reality…

But - if I asked Dart…the people that casted the block and are supposed to be all-knowledgable about their product about the mismatch, and they agree that it's an issue and the machine shop "should have" port matched these cooling passages (I have their real name and where they work)….I now have a leg to stand on when I approach you and ask why you overlooked that.

If I didn't think you knew what you were talking about, I certainly wouldn't have held up the rest of my build for the entire weekend.

BTW, I'll also let Dart know that I think not mentioning this cooling port mismatch in their "Dart Little M Instructions" is total BS….that info should be provided…there's certainly loads of OTHER info about machining in their instructions…you may not agree with that, but it's OK.

I'm well aware there are extra things that need to be done to gain extra performance - tips and tricks etc. that see no real benefit on a street driven engine….but as far as I know, both street AND almost all race engines need a proper cooling system…

I'm not trying to build a 1/4 mile terror here. But what I AM trying to build is a reliable 400 plus cubic inch street machine that I could drive cross country using decent parts without a worry….but things like this make me wonder.

So in closing, I hope you now realize where I'm coming from here.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

And to answer your other question about chamfering the bottom of each cylinder bore..

My receipt says (and they told me) that the entire block was deburred, all sharp edges ground off and all holes tapped (cleaned up).

Looking at it, I can see where it might have been filed on…a full chamfer..no.

But there's no sharp edges. So is that something else that's a "must"? No way I'd do that with it assembled. It would need taken apart again since I can only imagine the amount of filings it would leave...

1gary

You bet it's your money.Call them.

HINKSON AUTO

USING THOSE HEAD GASKETS THE WATER IS RESTRICTED BETWEEN CYL. 1&3 AND 5&7 AND MORE WATER IS FORCED TO GO IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HEAD AS THAT IS THE HOTTEST PART OF THE HEAD BECASUE OF THE TWO EXHAUST VALVE ARE TOGETHER. RESTRICTING IT MAY NOT BE A GOOD IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Makes perfect sense to me! I never thought about the 2 exhaust valves being side by side on those 2 cylinders....

So I don't know....is there a better head gasket I could use for better cooling flow distribution AND will handle low boost?

This is the very first time I've tried to use any brand of MLS gaskets. I normally use composite gaskets.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

BTW, I really don't have an issue grinding out - or oblonging the coolant holes....but I still feel it shouldn't be required if it were designed right.

I just want Dart to tell me I need to do that so my machine shop knows they messed up. I'm sure my Little M won't be the last one they'll ever see...they do a fair amount of work.

BTW, I can also see where not properly chamfer ring the bottom of each cylinder could scratch up the piston skirts...but in your experience, do you think simply filing off the sharp edges like they appear to have done suffice?

1gary

YOUR INSISTENCE IS SUSPECT OF THE POSSIBILITY DART WILL GIVE HIM A PART NUMBER OF A GASKET THAT WILL WORK THAT YOU DON'T(DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING)ABOUT.


CASE IN POINT.NOT RUNNING A THERMOSTAT HAVING WATER FLOW TOO QUICK RESULTING IN A HOT CONDITION.RESTRICTION FOR A GOOD REASON??. COULD BE.

ONLY THE DESIGNERS/MANUFACTURES CAN EXPLAIN THE LOGIC.THE BEING DART!!!. NOT YOU.

NOT GOING TO CLOUD THIS THREAD WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF A BORE SIZE/STROKE OVER A GM BLOCK BEING THE REASON WHY THESE RUN HOTTER OR NOT THE REASON WHY INTENTIONALLY DART MAKE THOSE HOLES SMALLER.

OR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THE THRUST SIDE IT AT THE TOP OF THE BORE AND NOT,NOT,THE BOTTOM.OR HOW MANY 6" ROD PISTONS ROCK AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BORE.NOTE TO JUST DIRECTLY YOU.REMEMBER HOW 6" ROD ENGINE'S PISTONS DWELL AT THE TOP OF THE BORE AND HAVING A SHORTER PISTON TRAVEL IN THE BORE ITSELF.MAYBE YOU NEED TO RE-CALIBRATE YOUR BORE CHECKING EQUIPMENT BECAUSE OF THOSE BEING THE WRONG SIZE ENTIRELY.

COULD YOUR ADVISE BE ??.YEP-IN ALL THE YRS WE BEEN BUILDING CUSTOMER ENGINES PROFESSIONALLY AND DRAG RACING CHEVY'S,IT CAN AND SHOULD BE A VERY HUMBLING BUSINESS.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont buy this theory. I've run same day back to back with stat and without and noticed no difference in op temp but it did take longer to heat up. I run a 1" restrictor now and it still takes awhile to warm on cool days, but ultimately the cooling capacity is set by radiator area and fan flow. Just my experience, and i've run straight distilled water and 50:50 antifreeze mixes too. No difference.

1gary

The point I am making Orr is those holes might be that size for a reason.One that only Dart could explain.

HINKSON AUTO

WOULDN'T WATER FLOW BE UP TO THE GASKET COMPANIES AS THATS WHY THEY MADE THE CHANGES TO 1003 AND PEFFORMANCE GASKETS THAT ARE OUT THERE OVER THE OEM GAKSETS.

I AM SURE DART WIL TELL HIM ITS UP TO THE ENGINES BUILDER TO ALIGN THE HOLES OR NOT.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I tried calling Dart and was placed on permanent hold listening to elevator music.

So I called my machine shop and explained the situation, and what head gaskets I was using. I also sent him pictures.

He had another identical Little M block still being built in his shop so he tried a Fel-Pro composite gasket on it and the cooling ports still didn't match. He said he had a more direct number to Dart, and he called both Dart AND Fel-Pro.

Both said it would not be an issue and no oblonging the holes was needed. There would be plenty enough flow and the mismatch won't cause any overheating of the engine, or the center cylinders in that area. Fel-Pro didn't see it as an issue either.

HINKSON AUTO

I guess half as much flow is better then none!! I guess the engines shops and engine builders I deal with are more perfectionists then some!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

So - If I run into any issues with overheating due to this misalignment, I at least brought it up as a concern with the machine shop and Dart.

Still don't like it, but I'd like grinding on my block deck even less....

1gary

Thanks for posting the results. I got a PM sent to a contact of my own and if they say something different I'll post it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I gotta ask the question, what pressure radiator cap will be used? What would be recommended for best cooling?

I ran stock 15 psi caps

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I can only tell you what I'm running....

Stock type 15 PSI cap, Griffin 2 core aluminum radiator (31x19) and Darale duel electric cooling fans...on 190, off 185 with a 180 Tstadt...

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I also emailed Dart's Tech Dept and couldn't wait. No email reply from them yet...

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

And please post up what you find out on your end Gary! I'll do the same unless they (Dart) decides not to answer my email.

At least my machine shop got an answer out of them!

-Thx

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

And that would be exactly the answer I'd expect to get from both Dart and Felpro. Deny Deny Deny! Think about it, they have thousands of these parts out there; what do they possibly have to gain by being completely straightforward with you. It's not going to cause a blatant failure that is their fault beyond a reasonable doubt, and that's good enough for them to stick to their story. To admit they goofed would only cause them endless grief; word travels too fast nowadays.
Do as you wish, but don't factor in their answers.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

just call my guy and ask him. Your combo is stupid mild compared to what that block can handle. For what its worth the engine in my chassis also has restriction in the coolant passages going into the heads. Head temp on the dyno wasn't out of line.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, it's not like I didn't see this coming....but I agree, word DOES travel real fast nowadays with the internet...

Just try selling something that is defective to a bunch of people...lie to everyone about its shortcomings and see how much business you lose....

Now does that even make sense?