xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

As far as I understood it, the primer was to make all the parts uniform in color before being painted. So an aluminum water pump would be the same shade of engine red as a cast block would be. Didn't paint that oil pan though huh lol. I paint everything race car flat black

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Paint the oil pan? Are you nuts?!?

The pan thats sitting on it isn't the pan that's going on it in the end. I'm using the Canton pan. Both have the galvanized coating…so they don't get too nasty (hopefully) …but hey, it's not a show car…I drive this thing too!

EDIT: Gloss black for me! I'm like a parrot…me like shiny stuff...

jdracer13

They will take nearly anything you throw at them just an FYI. Never had a problem with the any of the Dart blocks, especially with turbos that are making much higher than rated hp levels.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well - I took a die grinder to my block and expanded those cooling ports. I hated every second of it. I still feel it shouldn't be misaligned in the first place.

But I just wasn't comfortable with the replies I got from both the machine shop and Dart too.

If Dart would have said..."yes we're aware of the misalignment and we found that there is sufficient cooling after testing". - I would have left them alone. Instead I get a reply that "it won't hurt anything".

Well, they're not exactly telling me the ports were designed for optimal flow by saying "it won't hurt". I've heard that from Doctors and Dentists before...they lied. I decided not to take chances.

Barring anything unforeseen, I should be able to get this build going forward a little since I have a few days off my wacky work schedule. I'll post a few more pics up in a while.

EDIT: I also noticed there's no hole in the pass side of the block for my electric fan sensor...I'll need to find an alternate spot to put that in....

HINKSON AUTO

Glad you took care of the water restriction issue. Why take any unnecessary chances on a new build.

Like I said a lot of GM blocks don't have the center hole period and that is even a bigger problem when it comes to cooling.

Here is a link that applies to 350 blocks as well the instructions say a 9/16 hole not a 3/8 hole.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ooling_tricks/

You may want to deal with another shop next time that knows more about machining blocks and what needs to be done to get the best results.

Good luck with your build.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Um.... Isn't the fan switch in the pass head, not in the block??

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Lemme think....you may be right??

I assumed it was in the block....when I had my old 305 in it, I had it screwed into where the old knock sensor used to be. I'll double check! Hope you're right!

If it went in the heads, then hopefully these new AFR heads have a port there.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Heads definitely have ports

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Who is this gentleman at the start of this video?

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

The heads will have threaded holes. The one on the pass side will be at the rear kinda above and between the #'s 6&8 cyls.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Allright...getting old, the sensor must have went in the head.

Went out and took a look at my old block....and no hole there. Kinda relieved actually!

-No idea who that is in the video?? Looked like he was drinking a brew, so couldn't of been me. I mix my drinks!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I also went out and took a few pics of the ground out cooling ports

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i thought it was a coffee mug

HINKSON AUTO

Good job that will make for a little happier engine!! Are you going to dyno that when its complete?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Hopefully matching the cooling ports will make some kind of small difference.

As far as dyno - I've had it up on the dyno once before, but it was set up a bit different than this build. Before it had:
- 1-5/8" Edelcrock TES shorty headers
- Dart Iron Eagle 200cc intake, 72cc chambered heads
- Speed Demon 650 DP carb

New setup:
- 1-3/4" Dyno Don shorty headers
- AFR 195cc intake, 75cc chambered heads
- Speed Demon 750 cfm DP carb

Everything else pretty much the same....

I have the old dyno sheet, and I was a little disappointed with the peak HP considering it has a blower on it. It made 389 HP and 495 Torque to the rear wheels on a Mustang dyno.

Good thing about the results were that it held over 400 torque from 2400 rpm's through 4200 rpm's.

It'll be interesting to see how it'll do with supposedly better heads, bigger primary shorties and carb.

Yes- I'm having it chassis dynoed once I get it tweaked in as close as I can! But I take dyno results with a grain of salt...I don't think it's a tell-all for overall performance...

skinny z

I would agree however it's an invaluable piece of information to have. Combine that data with the vehicles performance at the track and it's overall driving personality and you have all that you could need to make informed decisions regarding changes.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Agreed….

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I caught myself putting way too much thought into how I was going to clean up my intake/blower.

Although something like blasting it would probably be best, I decided to just do what I've done before with aluminum intake manifolds in the past....wheel cleaner for porous cast wheels.

They turned out pretty nice, but far from perfect... It's not a full-on show car anyway. I drive it whenever during nice weather!

Procharged GTA

Looks fantastic!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Brian! You're too kind....

I decided to re-use my oil pump...only had less than 10k of running time, and it's been proven and works fine.

I need to use the Canton pickup tube, so I removed my old one. Gotta say it came out a little too easily! I've never tack welded them on in the past and 9had no issues at all... But then again, I've never built high revving engines.

So I was all prepared to tack this one on and discovered that this Canton pickup doesn't need it! It has a tab that bolts it in to the oil pump itself!!

Why don't they build them all this way??

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

So - a little coat of Indian Head sealer on the tube, cleaned up the pump bolt threads with carb cleaner and applied a dab of Locktite to the threads and waala!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

A little STP poured in the pump, (love the stuff for assembly)..installed the oil pump using ARP stud and nut. And more thread locker of course! Torqued to 65 foot pounds.

Procharged GTA

Yeah...The bolt on pickups make it nice and easy... we ALWAYS spot weld the non-bolt on pickups on everything! if you ever have to spot weld a pickup on anything , just make sure you remove the pressure regulator spring before doing so, the heat from welding can weaken the spring and result in lower than desired oil pressure... Although we have gotten by without doing it; it's always recommended. Now....you are good to go as long as your pickup to pan clearance is 1/4"-3/8".... always check to make sure..... The best way to check is with some modeling clay....take a strip of it and lightly oil it and lay it on the pickup and then install oil pan with a few bolts to tighten it down....then remove oil pan and take the clay strip off the pump and measure the thickness with a caliper.... that is your clearance... it's always better to know what you have than to always wonder....and it only takes a few minutes

HINKSON AUTO

You would have to do a lot of welding to disturb the spring unless you were brazing the tube on.

Procharged GTA

Yes, I agree...As we have never had a problem spot welding them with the spring installed....but it is often recommended

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I actually just put the oil pan on and cinched it down...not to check for pump pickup clearance, but for rotating assembly clearance.

Of course, what I expected...issues in the VERY same spot I've had issues with before...the stupid rear counterweight on this Scat crank. Damn...

With the pan on, I can only get like 1/16th of a turn on the crank in either direction and you can hear it hit. I've tried denting the another pan out in the same area, but it takes away from the gasket surface and creates a problem getting it to seal.

This is one of only 2 known pans that work with these dyno dons y-pipe...a stock one or this. Unless I get a stroker pan...then I know the y pipe won't fit. Then it's a full $$custom$$ y pipe...

So- I need to either figure out the LEAST intrusive way to clearance this pan, or getting my 320 bucks back and buy a cheapie stroker pan...and a $$custom$$ y pipe...this sucks...

HINKSON AUTO

Get the flame wrench out and do a little tin Knocking, I have seen guys do this before,

Those aren't Eagle Sir Rods in your engine??

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

How did they clearance it exactly? My last attempt resulted in a narrow rail that never sealed right...

And yes, they're sir rods...
[IMG][/IMG]
But in all honesty, the body shop did that attempting to start the car with no choke....lean backfire...

If tuned right, that shouldn't happen. Eagle sir rods are a bit more robust than stock rods at least...but far from the best I'll admit..

HINKSON AUTO

IMHO I would never put an Eagle Sir Rod in a Little-M block with a blower on it.

Those are Bottom of the barrel rods that Eagle makes.

Do a search on Eagle Sir Rods problems. I build a lot of performance engines and those rods would never go in any engine I BUILD.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...eagle-sir.html

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=154399

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/eagl...ds-100271.html

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=307920

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Serious carnage there! I'm running all ARP bolts in my rods. As you can see, I already know they can be broke.

This engine isn't a high RPM build, no high boost and no nitrous. Not too worried. If I decide to crank up boost in the future...I might consider better rods.

But instead of turning this thread into a parts selection and machine shop bash.....

-if anyone know of a good way to clearance this oil pan, I'm all ears. I am considering a ball-peen hammer or a socket...and hope I don't end up ruining the pan..

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, after doing numerous searches, there is no one real answer to this dilemma...

If you look close at the pic at the location it's hitting...the interference is probably in THE worst spot it can be on a SBC oil pan. If you look at how close the bolt hole is to the inside pan wall, it's the narrowest area of the pan rail where it seals.

Normally, a 3.750" throw crank shouldn't have these issues....but mine always has. I suspect that's because it's internally balanced vice the stock external balance = bigger counterweights.

There's history to this:
When I first put this rotating assembly into a stock block, I used my stock pan and had the entire engine installed in the car and started it. I shut it down immediately because I could hear the counterweight hit on every rotation. It wasn't hitting hard...but hitting.

I didn't realize where the noise was coming from at the time, and after I started the engine the second time for one of my buddies so he could help figure out where the noise was coming from, the noise got quieter and suddenly went away. I couldn't find anything "wrong" since the noise was gone.

Drove it for a week and noticed a puddle of oil under the engine. Crawled up under the car and noticed a hole was worn away in the side of the oil pan near the rail....in the same spot as the pic above!!

Only "answers" I found by searching was BFH, stroker pans that won't allow y pipes to really fit, or advanced welding skills.....

skinny z

It seemed that with the Canton pan, the bolt holes were very close to the "body" of the pan and using a traditional 1/4"-20 bolt with a 7/16ths head wouldn't fit. I eventually went to an ARP 1/4"-20 bolt with a 3/8ths 12 point head.
That tightness only makes your situation more difficult I suppose. I realize that's no help whatsoever but just a heads up on what you might expect next.
Lacking the ability to heat it up and beat it into shape, I'm sure a fab shop could modify that pan with a little cut and patch. We've done it to countless bits of sheet metal that won't cooperate. Oil pans included.

skinny z

Where did this come from. That's the result of lean backfire?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks skinny....I've had the same issue with stock and stroker pans in the past...and that particular bolt hole is close to the "body" on all 3 of them.

And whatever I do to clearance in that particular area (BFH, Weld etc) - you're absolutely right...the head of the bolt will be up against the wall and make it impossible to tighten it. Last time I ended up using an allen head bolt and washer to get it tight.

And yes - the body shop did that. I wasn't even around when it happened. They called me at home and said my engine was making a "funny" noise, and I should come to the shop and hear it.

They claimed they were just trying to start it to move it to another bay, and it backfired "a little" and started making a noise. What REALLY happened? I do not know.

I'll probably never know. Lesson learned....never take a super/turbo charged car to a body shop if it's running. Next time, I'll either get the body work done before I put the engine in, or pull the distributor out. They can push the thing to another bay....

That's the whole story about the busted rod. These were installed before I ever thought of going with boost. They're not horribly bad rods...they are a lesser forged rod, and there's better out there. Still a notch better than stock cast rods though. So long as I keep it tuned right, they should be fine.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Just for informational purposes - below are pics of the same area on a stroker pan vs a Canton pan...

Why Canton doesn't make this pan fit stroker cranks/rods is totally beyond me...guess they figure no one would ever run a stroker motor in a Thirdgen Camaro?? FYI, a stroker pan will work on a non stroker engine just fine...so your guess is as good as mine...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Bingo! Bad idea to take any performance car to any place where others may drive it including valets.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Yes....can we please get over the busted rod thing??

Bad memories, and there's another thread from a few years ago about it. Just glad it didn't hurt the block and crank...

So I'm at a crossroads with my oil pan situation...I can:

-BFH this real nice Canton pan with scraper, trap doors, screen etc...and hope a pan gasket will seal it..

-Reuse my cheapie notched Summit stroker pan that I know will clear the crank, holds too little oil...but my y pipe will fit badly on...

-Pay someone to take a section out of my cheapie stroker pan and either weld it on the Canton pan...if it can even be done...

-Return this Canton pan AGAIN, get the drag pan back I had before (stroker pan) and hope I can find a shop in my area that knows what they're doing to make a new y pipe....

Question is....which would you try if you were in the same situation...??

-

skinny z

Cut and patch the Canton pan. Oil leaks suck and trying to beat a relief into it will deform the edge. Possibly beyond use. A shop that does race car related sheet metal would be able to weld in a patch and leave clearence for a shouldered bolt. At least they should be.
As for the y-pipe, there are lots of examples in the 3rd gen exhaust picture collection and a quality shop should be able to duplicate something that fits the car.
Question is....who do you try?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Yes, that really is a good question. I'll start looking in the phone book and asking around to see what shop can actually do the job....seems it's easy to find a shop that SAYS they can do it...then you see the results. Sometimes it's not good. A "custom" exhaust shop got my y pipe to fit last time, but I didn't care at all for the way they got it to fit....I could've done what they did in the garage myself...and they thought they did something special!

I'm not letting this oil pan stuff slow me down. Plenty of other stuff to do. Passenger side head on and final torqued, DS head has just a few bolts in it and an old head gasket. Gonna break out the checking spring and adjustable pushrod and see if I have the right length pushrods…

BTW, After getting the heads on, I can now see why these heads breath so well…the intake ports are like huge chambers inside! Pretty impressive. Hopefully they'll kick up the power a bit over the old Iron Eagles...

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I told you last year bring it over and get a y pipe made up. No reason to beat oil pans over a stock engine only designed exhaust system.

skinny z

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...y-looking.html

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I totally agree with ya Steve, but only problem is, you're clear down in Orland Park…like 2 hours away almost! Kinda tough to get down there without a big truck and a trailer….and I know my S-10 won't do it...

if I had those, I'd be all over the offer…really!

The only exhaust shop around here can't even do mandrel bends!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No other pans exist? IF you arent willing to buy a cheap mig and do it yourself (exhaust ypipe fab) then I'd look for a new pan.

Custom exhaust shops seem to be few and far between.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Post #176.....

Since then everything got a little scrambled....i guess I'll look further into getting this Canton pan to for a couple of reasons - it holds 6 quarts, has much better oil control over any cheapie pan. And biggest reason, since the car is lowered, it'll have better ground clearance. Guess I'll worry about the exhaust later. I own a mig welder BTW...not very good with it though.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You should be able to mod y pipe then. Cut with sawzall and buy some general mandrel bends at 13$ a U bend. Cut and fit as needed.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Lol ya a little distance for sure. Sold my trailer to buy one for my business and can't fit a car on it anymore. U haul and a buddy with a fullsize could do it. My guy can do mild steel or mandrel stainless but its a bunch more for the u bends. He does a lot of the hot rods that are in world of wheels. Very talented. Keep the pan as its designed, no way I'd weld on it being brand new to fit some pipes.

skinny z

The cut and patch is to make clearance for the stroker isn't it?
I wasn't suggesting that the pan gets worked over to clear the exhaust.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I agree, dont cut pan. There has to be a pan with more clearance.

skinny z

These are stainless J-Y bends cut and fit as Orr suggests.
The same could made be with mild steel.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Right- to clear a stroker. I'm not cutting any more pans to fit this exhaust.
I just need it to fit the rear counterweight on the crank. I don't want to BFH it...I was really thinking about it yesterday, but changed my mind. I'll call Canton today to see if they can do anything about it. If they can't do anything, I'm returning it and getting my money back. Ironically, Summit lists this 15-244 pan as being able to clear a 3.875" crank and says the pan is stroker clearanced....BS...
Yes, that might be the way I'll have to go for the Y pipe...I had a feeling from the beginning crank clearance and y pipe clearance would be an issue, and it didn't disappoint. These cars suck when it comes to oil pans and running a street exhaust with any kind of clearance. Might as well be a vette.....