nakota2k

So my 89' Iroc-z is in the shop right now with a slew problems. My spark plugs are fouled with oil and valve guides are worn out. They said to replace them and the other things that would need to be done is 4-5 grand or I could get a remanufactured engine installed for 7-8grand that comes with a 3 year 100k warranty. This is a reputable shop as far as all their reviews go online so I'm not sure what to do from here.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Set of spark plugs = $30ish

Set of valve guide seals = $25ish

Valve cover gaskets = $15ish

Satisfaction of doing it YOURSELF and letting "shop" take a flying leap = PRICELESS

Your car is 25 yrs old now; it'll be 26 when the 2015 model year starts around Labor Day. (3 mo from now) it is AN ANTIQUE in most states. If you intend to actually operate an antique vehicle as your daily driver, "shop" isn't how it's done. Like, go to any car show or cruise-in or whatever, and see how many of those people had "shop" do their minor routine maintenance like spark plugs and valve guide seals.

We here are (well at least most of us... some are pure unadultered HACKS but that's another matter) the kind of people who take care of our cars OURSELVES. We can help you grow into that, if you're not already a hobbyist. Because that's pretty much what antique cars are... a hobby. Most of us do it for fun, or personal satisfaction, or just the thrill of learning and DOING stuff. We're not Vette people where we drop it off, come back in a week and write a big check, then do the same thing again next time we want to drive it. Welcome to the club!!!

nakota2k

I appreciate your input. I am a college student and this is my daily driver. I can't afford to tear this car down in a garage and teach myself. He made it seem like the valve guides are super laborious to replace. Says he can replace them but if they are already worn out with only 55k miles then who knows about the bearings etc.
I do also want to keep this a numbers matching car though too...

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Replacing valve guides require removing the heads. SWAG 10 hours for a novice to strip the engine down, and reinstall everything is on top of the "valve guides are easy to replace" work.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

IMO, get the car out of that shop, did they say anything about compression testing? The valve seals are a different thing than the valve guides. If they're looking at the engine in that way, the tranny may as well follow and that can be expensive as well. At 55k the engine shouldn't be in that kind of shape.

Learning the lingo can go a long way in making sure you're not taken advantage of. If a shop catches on that you don't know what they're talking about, big numbers often start flying because they know you don't know how to, or can't get it done cheaper.
For numbers sake, you should be able to get your engine rebuilt for say $3k with the tranny/converter at $1500-$2500. IIRC, an engine install at a shop is typically around $500-$600. Install isn't that hard if you have the room or a friend familiar doing so. Ask yourself if the car is in the condition to put that much money into?

The vids below are not recommendations, or how for you to do it, just a couple that I found explaining the process. The knowledge gained by watching them will help you understand the difference of what they're planning to do.

Valve seals (with heads on):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...sGqmOQus6Y#t=4
Valve guides (Machinist level):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...XZS3LEtWF8#t=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...-w_UdVMCOU#t=4

If you were considering the above you would be machining a lot more than what was shown. Could even consider buying new heads at that point.

Here are some examples of crate engines.
Crappy:
http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance...FYk7MgodDzIA0g

Better (you would want something different, but an example):
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/GM-Per...FXQiMgodkkwAhQ
Same but at Jegs:
http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance...FQJqMgodJh4AHg

IrocRoadRacer

Find a chevy 350 shortblock or whole engine off craigslist. You'll just need to swap out the intake and attached all the accessories from your motor. It could be a weekend project or maybe something that will take a week. BTW aren't you supposed to be out of college for the summer?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Replacing valve guide seals DOES NOT require removing the heads.

DOES NOT require removing the engine from the car.

IS NOT "hard".

I teach statistics at a local university in my spare time to support my habit(s). The "hardest" thing for me, is convincing the students that the subject matter is not "hard". They all walk in the door looking like they expect the Grim Reaper to come out of a wall somewhere. Once I can get them past that, they LOVE it. Same deal here.

IMO you have 2 choices here:

Either resign yourself to the notion that antique cars are "hard" and "you can't handle it", or, let the fear pass over you and through you and come out the other side ready to deal with REALITY. Choice 1 requires a LARGE bank account that doesn't matter if you dump 8 times the car's value on it every coupla weeks from now til Eternity; choice 2 leads to .... FUN.

Trust me on this, it's not "hard".

red rock

iTrader: (2)

Being a college student should be all the more reason to save money. Talk to family and friends about getting the motor tested properly and worked on. Never trust just one opinion. Where are you from? (finish your profile), maybe there is a TGO member within shouting distance that would help you?

nakota2k

They did a compression test and it all came back fine. I ended up telling the guy to put it back together because I can't afford to invest that kind of money into the car right now.

jazzdadss

4-5K, 7-8K!!!!!!! OMG!!! Run!

nakota2k

I know >< They had such great reviews and I'm kinda stuck and trying to cut my losses and get it out at this point.

jazzdadss

If you can learn how to replace the rear spark plugs yourself you may be able to use the vehicle until you find someone to help you with other things.
Good luck!

I had a friend that needed Valve stem seals but could not afford it so I would go and replace #7 and #8 spark plug for her every 2/3 months..... Kept it going until she could fix it. The bad thing is that every time you start it and it smokes it is slowly clogging the Cat...

heat seeker

iTrader: (5)

I paid my neighbor $150 to teach me how to replace my valve seals. We did it in one Saturday. Find someone local from this board and pay them to teach you how to replace them. You'll be done in one weekend, and you'll be smarter than the weekend before.

Try it, I used to be hesitant like you. Now, I wouldn't even consider letting anyone else work on my car.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

At least call around to other shops and ask what it could cost to do new guide SEALS. I also agree that its not hard and can be done, but if you really dont want to, you should call around and get other estimates. Tell them what the other shop told you and get a price. Not for new guides, but guide seals. I agree that the guides should not be worn out at 55k, unless its had serious neglect/abuse.

Chevy2035

You say its an 89 with 55k Miles, What Odometer dose it have? 140mph that only goes up to 99,999 miles?
Im a mechanic and ill tell you now if the car has 55k miles it had to be ran without ever changing the oil, Or with no oil, I doubt that is the case. More likely is that it has 155k or 255k miles on it and someone messed with odometer on it. Not saying a 55k 89 dont exist or cant, But the ones that you find with 55k are ones that are weekend warriors and well loved and cared for by owners that will never part with them.

As for the prices they quoted you, That is crazy, I dont know where your from, But i have lived in Ohio and NC and in both of these states you could get a motor swap with a brand new motor, 3 year warranty for about 5k-6k depending mostly on the motor your wanting in it.
Direct hit, And Alldata both call for 11.5 hours to replace a motor.
11.5 x 75$ an hour (our price, Dealerships is 100-125$ an hour)

Sounds like they are trying to rip you off. Get a list of what they found is wrong with it, IF they charge diagnosis pay that and get as far away as you can as fast as you can, Online reviews mean nothing.


There is a company that calls my shop at least twice a week stating that they will "Improve our reviews for 700$ a month" in other words they make fake reviews and charge us, OR remove the bad reviews for 1500$

We dont advertise, We dont check or care about our reviews online. We are a shop that survives by word of mouth, (kinda helps we serve mostly Military and they blacklisted all the other shops in town for the same thing that one is trying to do to you)

Drac0nic

4-5 Gs for a top end job is absurd and 8 is absurd for what sounds like it would be a stock rebuild. Run away fast.

My big question happens to be when the last time you did a basic tune up and injector cleaning on it was? Sounds odd, but cylinder washing can cause fouling as can sub optimal timing or improper heat range plugs. I would try moving up a heat range and seeing if things burn off.

In terms of the seals, they can be done in car. I like getting 2 sets or getting a set from a Vortec 350 then using em on both intake and exhaust. Besides that, get some valve springs and throw em in. Under $100 in parts, and you'll like having the valve springs. If you have an air compressor use that to do the seals.


A picture is worth 1,000 words, who knows what a video is worth. This isn't fully encompassing but should give you a far better idea.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Good to hear on both accounts.

SparksAj

I'm not really smart enough to help you fix your car, But everyone else here is. Get it back(unfortunately probably going to cost something) and do it yourself. Jazz sofaking and ransford pretty much help my hand the past 5 days while i worked on my car, and eventually i got it done and saved a solid chunk of change(and learned a ton)

jharrison5

Sounds to me like the shop is trying to rip you off. One time I took my 2000 S10 blazer in to a local place to have my tires rotated and the shop told me that I needed new upper and lower ball joints at a cost of $1800. The blazer was 3 years old at the time and had 26k on it. Also I had just purchased it a month earlier and it was a GM certified vehicle. When I asked the service guy how far out of spec the ball joints were he couldn't give me a number. Needless to say I never took my vehicle there again and have told everyone not to go there.

Here might be a solution for you though... Find a local tech school and see if there is a kid there who can fix it under the watchful eye of an instructor. Post and add on Craigslist and see if someone can't show you how to do the work.

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

just a thought for the op (or anyone in this position) if you need your car to get to school/work and are thinking about just paying that high bill to get your car back, think about this first ... 1. first, like sofa said, it will feel much better for you to fix your car, and it will cost you less (i may not always like how sofa comes across, but i have yet to see him give bad info/suggestions). 2. if you need $4k -$8k to pay a shop, you can bet parts a ton less than that. 3. if you are not doing huge body/sub-frame/rot repair, most anything else can be done in under 2 weeks as you read up on it here or in books or other web pages and watch videos. 4.you can buy a car for around $1k and use it to get to work/school, then sell it again, or sit it out back for the next time you need your car off the road for repairs. 5. the more you can learn about your camaro/firebird, the less likely you will be stranded on the side of the road for something small you could have done in a few minutes with basic hand tools.

jharrison5

I agree with Barlow. My 3rd gens have never been my primary source of transport since I live in Nebraska where the weather is like a crack junkie. Once you learn the ins and outs of your car you will be surprised what you can troubleshoot.

FRMULA88

Oil fouled plugs are a sign of a mechanical problem. (It could be worn valve seals, worn / broken piston rings.) At the very least the shop should have done a compression / leak down test to rule out the rings.

They are also covering their *** because a worn engine is usually a domino effect.
You fix one problem, 4 weeks later you develop another, then another... etc... a tired engine.. just need to be removed and replaced... if authenticity is important to you then you have the original engine / trans / rear overhauled.


IMHO Concentrate on school and get a good job. Then you can have all the free time and money you need to play with an old car later on.

Despite being a hobby and learning to DIY, parts still cost money and you need a space to work. especially if you plan to do drivetrain / body / paint. If you have the luxury of paying a shop to do the work.. MORE POWER TO YOU. You can spend your free time doing something else while helping to support a local business. I don't envy guys that can write a check, good for them. I did it few times in my life myself and it was great not to mention by the time I bought a welder... learned how to TIG.. etc etc I would have spent ALOT more than just having a chassis shop do the cage right the first time! Not to mention, how often have I welded since then ZERO, because I am not a chassis shop and I don't build race cars for a living.

Some things are worth farming out, unless you have the space, time, & money to acquire all the equipment to do it all yourself. I like working on drivetrain / body / paint so I have the bare minimum for now. My biggest investment was the engine hoist which I have used plenty of times over the past 14 years !


If the car means something to you, park it (in you parents garage) and get a newer more reliable daily driver for now.
then decide what to do.

JonM

My diy measuring stick is how much is it going to cost to have the work done vs me buying the needed tools and parts and diy'ing it.

Last project was the wife's 01 ws6 transam ac went **** up. Cost quoted was 850$ from a local shop that also did ac. Gm's quote was a bit higher. So I bought the manifold gages uv light and vacuum pump to diagnose properly. Found that the ac was over charged. Had the refrigerent evacuated. I then vacuumed it down dyed the system recharged with the correct ammount and it blows ice cold no leaks seen yet. I'm going to check it end of june again for leaks.

Moral is diy isn't hard and often cheaper even when you need to buy tools. Now I have everything to do automotive ac except a means of evacuating the refrigerent.

Watch some youtube on the topic a bunch of times understand what's being done then get in there and do it. You don't need the best tools as your not doing the job everyday all day. I get a lot of cheaper stuff from harbor freight. Its chinese junk but its good enough for a weekend car hack job.

(Just an opinion of a genuine certified car repair hack ccrh for short. Better than ase....)

jazzdadss

nakota2k - You said that the shop told you the valve guides were worn out but they did a compression test and all came back fine - correct? Did the shop physically show you anything? Like showing you movement with the valve itself? Reason I ask is that these engines are famous for building up crud in the head and blocking the drainage passages so the oil once pumped up to the rocker will not drain quickly back into the lower portion of the engine. Thus pooling in the top of the head and leaking down the bad valve SEALS. Thus everytime you start it in the morning there is a cloud of smoke out of the tailpipe? Is this what you have been experiencing? If so, a new set of valve seals (standard and umbrella type) and a cleanup of the oil drain back holes followed by a new set of spark plugs would most likely get you going for a good long while.
My 2 cents. Good luck.


Get this book!! It will teach you more than you want to know, lol..

FRMULA88

I bought this book "new" when it was still at the auto parts stores.. way back in 1993 LOL